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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Myrtle Creek, OR

 Pacific wrote:
 privateer4hire wrote:
Well, I wonder if Shadows of Brimstone from Flying Frog will see any increase in sales.


I've literally just been looking at the different boxset comparisons

(Although to be fair it has been on the shopping list for some time).


I had kinda written Brimstone off until Cursed City got me looking at alternatives.
Our FLGS actually got in several CC copies and I even had a chance to buy one.
But the models didn't enthuse me---especially the scenery carrying undead---and neither did the rules or the cuckoo price.

Been researching Brimstone videos and Board Game Geek reviews and SOB looks like a good not CC option.
They even have werewolves and vampires either already available or in the pipeline, too
   
Made in pl
Dakka Veteran




Germany

drbored wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
drbored wrote:
I really don't understand why people are still arguing about this...
I don't believe that you really don't understand why this is being discussed.

GW made a fourth entry in their revamped Warhammr Quest line. They hyped it up with two previews, weeks of WarCom articles, a whole series of painting videos, a How To Play video, and it's own dedicated website that grew as more things were revealed.

Then it sold out in 20 seconds and GW are now all "New phone. Who dis?" when people want a simple answer on whether this is coming back and if there will be expansions.

But you knew that already...



And what I'm saying is that they're not behaving "new phone. who dis?" they're doing what many other companies around the world do.

You think Nintendo is going to bend over backwards to answer why every Pokemon game is exactly the same? Nah, they're just going to print it and Pokemon fans are going to buy it.

I get it though, GW have done a pretty good job of putting up this illusion that they're all our best bud and that they have a shoulder for us to cry on, only for them to retract that shoulder when we needed it most... The truth was that there wasn't a shoulder there in the first place.


But if a Nintendo is delaying a Pokemon game they're gonna tell that everyone, instead of y'know, not relasing the game when they were supposed to and delete all mentions of the original relase date and pretend nothing is wrong

Games Workshop are not your friends. They are not a small dev trying their best. They are a multibillion dollar company making calculated decisions about how many costs they can cut, how lazy they can be about relases, and how much they can paywall. They will do it again. Stop giving them money for this. 
   
Made in at
Discriminating Warrior





Austria

Ok, lets see what Nintendo is saying when a game sold out too early or is hard to get during a pandemic:
“Demand for this new proposal from Nintendo of exercising by playing an adventure game was so much higher than our forecasts that the global supply has been unable to keep up since release,” Nintendo says in its statement. “The lingering effects of this product shortage in the market are still an inconvenience to a large number of consumers, but as with the Nintendo Switch family of systems, we will continue to work to ensure a sufficient amount of shipments for the holiday season.”


lets try another one, Sony about the PS5:
“Everything is sold. Absolutely everything is sold,” Ryan said. “I’ve spent much of the last year trying to be sure that we can generate enough demand for the product. And now in terms of my executive bandwidth, I’m spending a lot more time on trying to increase supply to meet that demand.”

Ryan added that the COVID-19 pandemic had made things “challenging from the production side,” with Sony workers not being able to get into its factories in Asia during lockdowns.

“I wouldn’t plan on doing another big console launch in the midst of a global pandemic,” he said. “And I wouldn’t recommend it to anybody else.”


and Games Workshop:
Cused City is sold-out on games-workshop.com and were are not expected it to return online.
Many copies have been sent to local stores across the world. Please check with your local Warhammer store or independent retailer to see if they can help



Standard industry communication:
"We have tried, but because of unexpected issues (Corona) there is not enough but we do our best to get things done"

GW:
"it is gone, we don't know if it will return to the online store but you can ask retailers if they can help"

nothing about that there was an issue or mistake made, nothing that about if it will return or not (not expected to return online can mean anything from never available at all to "going to be an exclusive retailer item") and "ask someone else" as the suggestion what the costumer should do

and now saying those 3 statements are the same and give the same message to the costumer with the same information is, I don't know, maybe my Englisch is worse than I thought as I cannot see how they say the same


GW has messed it up and in good old GW manner makes it worse by acting (again) like they can do nothing wrong
so basically learned nothing from the Kirby years on how important communication with the costumer is and not matter if the message kills their stock price and get shareholders angry, in the long run they lose much more if they mess with their costumers

PS: also deleting posts that a product will be permanent available is not normal industry behavier
this is not the same as changing a release date and it even the non-wargaming industry news see it as worth to mention it in an article about the game
For the sake of argument "to avoid of being attacked based on old messages" now they have made sure that really everyone knows about it, also those who not follow Twitter or not care about GW.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/22 06:03:03


Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Andykp wrote:
 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Sarouan wrote:
Sure, it's not like there's a pandemic around and Brexit on top of that affecting the whole production.

Oh wait : https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/04/18/our-pre-order-schedules-changing-a-bit-heres-how/
That has literally nothing to do with what we're talking about.

The 'why' is largely unimportant. It's the 'if' that matters.

COVID or Brexit or a fething asteroid hitting Nottingham - these are all reasons why production can be delayed, but none of that matters. All that we're asking is if Cursed City (and/or any expansions) is coming back. Don't you get that?


At this point I would be satisfied with as much as GW admitting Cursed City is sold out and they don't know when it's going to be back, just for them to admit something, anything is going on instead of ignoring it.


You all get that GW is a big company with shareholders to keep happy yeah? Every statement they make will be planned and judged to give just the information needed, that will minimise damage to their shareholders investments and stock price. Keeping some unhappy internet types fully informed is very low down the list of priorities. I get the disappointment but the entitlement is a bit too far. It’s a shame and I’m sure this isn’t what GW had planned, if you really wanted this box I can imaging you are gutted but that’s as far as it goes really.

People are typically happier when a company admits it screwed up instead of the smoke and mirrors everyone knows how to see through, well outside people that have the bare minimum of critical thinking skills anyway.

CaptainStabby wrote:
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 jy2 wrote:
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 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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GW doesn't like to explain, and it doesn't like to apologize. GW thinks "communication" means constantly bombarding the marks err customers with social-media style advertising "content." When things go wrong, radio silence is the preferred go-to, and when they go so wrong that isn't an option any more, they issue some kind of statement that is always very careful not to acknowledge it was their screw-up, and presenting whatever they're going to do about it as some big favor to everybody. People only think it's better than the Kirby era because back then they didn't even do the social media advertising err "engagement."

It's interesting, it's honestly rare to see a company so unwilling to hold up its hands when it screws up. Even their FAQs and errata never apologize or admit they got something wrong, no matter how badly they screw something up. Who can forget the Iron Hands nerf, where they so memorably let drop that they had been warned by the playtesting team what a fiasco they were creating, but decided to go ahead anyway because <reasons>, and then presented the fact that they were fixing what should never have been released in the first place as some sort of big gift to the community?
   
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Germany

 kodos wrote:


and Games Workshop:
Cused City is sold-out on games-workshop.com and were are not expected it to return online.
Many copies have been sent to local stores across the world. Please check with your local Warhammer store or independent retailer to see if they can help





Don't forget, this isn't even something we were supposed to see! It was supposed to be a message only to retailers, and the only reason we saw it, is because someone leaked it.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/22 06:20:30


Games Workshop are not your friends. They are not a small dev trying their best. They are a multibillion dollar company making calculated decisions about how many costs they can cut, how lazy they can be about relases, and how much they can paywall. They will do it again. Stop giving them money for this. 
   
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Newcastle NSW

Can we get this thread locked until there is some actual official news from GW.

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I watched Ash’s video on GMG about his thoughts on it, and I agree with everything he said about it. The game not being a line product likely has to do with a manufacturing/logistical/printing issue, especially with the pandemic going on and how backed up printing/shipping in China is. He is also correct with a company not owing you anything because you wanted it, and about the deleting of comments.

I will add a caveat though to his comments, GW really needs to step up to the plate and release a comment about this. Something as simple as “Due to unforeseen complications with the manufacturing of Cursed City it will not be a main product line for the foreseeable future. We apologize for any confusion or inconvenience this may cause and if it is feasible to return at a later date we will let you know.”

It would clear up all this goofy conspiracy stuff and also (I believe) create some goodwill with those who are sore on the subject. When companies have issues that affect their consumers I appreciate when they are transparent about it, and I believe most people feel similar.


 
   
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That is all it would take.

Things going wrong - fine. Oh there’ll be those determined to use it to paint GW as EvilBadWrong, but then there always is.

Giving Highly Mixed Messages - not fine. At all.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

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 Sabotage! wrote:
I watched Ash’s video on GMG about his thoughts on it, and I agree with everything he said about it. The game not being a line product likely has to do with a manufacturing/logistical/printing issue, especially with the pandemic going on and how backed up printing/shipping in China is. He is also correct with a company not owing you anything because you wanted it, and about the deleting of comments.
Ash is right about the logistics of things, but a lot of that is arguing against points no one is making.

It's every time someone says "BuT CoViD aNd BrExIt!!!" - none of that matters. We know there are delays. We know that GW has been impacted (they even said as much). None of this is in dispute. What we don't know is what the hell is going on with Cursed City, a game that up until it suddenly went away sure seemed like it was going to be around for a while, just like the other 3 new Quest games. Their silence on this is deafening.

I mean, when the PS5 ran out no one thought "OMG! Does that mean I missed out? Is it gone forever???".

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To be honest, it’s feeling like trying to get a PS5 in the U.K.

Sodding scalpers.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

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Guys it's now been literally 6 pages of just bickering whether GW owes you an apology or not.

Posters on ignore list: 34

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Austria

lord_blackfang wrote:Guys it's now been literally 6 pages of just bickering whether GW owes you an apology or not.

no, it is about why nu-GW now thinks that the way old-GW handled stuff was better

Rolsheen wrote:Can we get this thread locked until there is some actual official news from GW.

don't expect there will ever be one

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
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 Sabotage! wrote:
He is also correct with a company not owing you anything because you wanted it, and about the deleting of comments.
Why do people keep bringing up entitlement? Yes, at the most fundamental level, the only thing a company "owes" you is to deliver a functional product you've paid for, and that's it.
But if they want to sell me a product, they should have it available.
If they want to sell me a product in the future, they should let me know that and when it will be available.
If they want to ensure I'm confused as to whether I'll be able to buy a product, and prefer if I take my money elsewhere (not out of spite, but merely because they don't offer the thing I would have paid them for), then telling me I can buy a product, subsequently not having the product and afterwards being silent about whether I can buy the product later (just a paragraph on WarCom/in a newsletter will do), well, that'd be the perfect strategy.
This is not information that should only be available via someone on a forum who follows a store on social media who happens to have this information or whatever.

Don't care about an apology, would be interested in the "why?" (both as a customer and just out of curiosity), but it's very much in their own best interests to at least offer the "what?".

Although if they want future statements to be somewhat trustworthy, something about the "why" also very much helps. Otherwise, the impression is just that they can apparently just change their minds on a whim. Fine for Quest; not ideal for convincing people to invest in products whose attractiveness relies on long-term support, like most of their other products.
   
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H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Sabotage! wrote:
I watched Ash’s video on GMG about his thoughts on it, and I agree with everything he said about it. The game not being a line product likely has to do with a manufacturing/logistical/printing issue, especially with the pandemic going on and how backed up printing/shipping in China is. He is also correct with a company not owing you anything because you wanted it, and about the deleting of comments.
Ash is right about the logistics of things, but a lot of that is arguing against points no one is making.

It's every time someone says "BuT CoViD aNd BrExIt!!!" - none of that matters. We know there are delays. We know that GW has been impacted (they even said as much). None of this is in dispute. What we don't know is what the hell is going on with Cursed City, a game that up until it suddenly went away sure seemed like it was going to be around for a while, just like the other 3 new Quest games. Their silence on this is deafening.

I mean, when the PS5 ran out no one thought "OMG! Does that mean I missed out? Is it gone forever???".


And I agree with you 100% about being silent with this. GW needs to step up to the plate and simple tell people what is going on (not even specifics), because it is disrespectful to your customers to lead them to believe one thing, have something else be true, and just pretend nothing happened.

Coenus Scaldingus wrote:
 Sabotage! wrote:
He is also correct with a company not owing you anything because you wanted it, and about the deleting of comments.
Why do people keep bringing up entitlement? Yes, at the most fundamental level, the only thing a company "owes" you is to deliver a functional product you've paid for, and that's it.
But if they want to sell me a product, they should have it available.
If they want to sell me a product in the future, they should let me know that and when it will be available.
If they want to ensure I'm confused as to whether I'll be able to buy a product, and prefer if I take my money elsewhere (not out of spite, but merely because they don't offer the thing I would have paid them for), then telling me I can buy a product, subsequently not having the product and afterwards being silent about whether I can buy the product later (just a paragraph on WarCom/in a newsletter will do), well, that'd be the perfect strategy.
This is not information that should only be available via someone on a forum who follows a store on social media who happens to have this information or whatever.

Don't care about an apology, would be interested in the "why?" (both as a customer and just out of curiosity), but it's very much in their own best interests to at least offer the "what?".

Although if they want future statements to be somewhat trustworthy, something about the "why" also very much helps. Otherwise, the impression is just that they can apparently just change their minds on a whim. Fine for Quest; not ideal for convincing people to invest in products whose attractiveness relies on long-term support, like most of their other products.


I imagine he is bringing up entitlement because on various facets of the internet (Facebook is a great example) there were people throwing petulant tantrums about it. And I'm not meaning "I'm pretty unhappy that your product is not available to me 20 minutes after it went on sale."

And you are correct that they should really make a Warcom post about what happened. I don't even feel they need to get into specifics. Just notify people about what is going on, so that they can plan accordingly. It's also a lot more respectful of your fan base to be transparent with them why you told them one thing and then something entirely different later (and that only through sales reps who were contacted after the fact).

I think a lot of people are taking this whole thing too seriously. On the other hand, I will say it has definitely made me feel better about my decision to use the money I had set aside for Cursed City to buy products from smaller companies, who have much better communication and relationships with their fan base. I still buy Underworlds from GW because I love the game, and I bought the new Blood Bowl Rulebook and Necromantic team from GW last year, but a lot of their practices just don't sit well with me......and as such most of my hobby money goes towards other companies.


 
   
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If I were a shareholder I'd want to know what the feth happened. Let alone it being right (and only sensible) to tell customers what's going on too.
   
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Billicus wrote:
If I were a shareholder I'd want to know what the feth happened. Let alone it being right (and only sensible) to tell customers what's going on too.


Couldn’t have said it better myself.


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:That is all it would take.

Things going wrong - fine. Oh there’ll be those determined to use it to paint GW as EvilBadWrong, but then there always is.

Giving Highly Mixed Messages - not fine. At all.


It's all it would take for you or I to be happy - a clear "it won't be available again" or "it might be available in the future". But we would still have this thread with different people demanding to know why, and what changed since the initial statement, and speculating over copyright infringement, Brexit, ERP and all sorts. GW could make us happy easily enough, but it wouldn't stop the complaining. And every statement they made would be further grist to the mill of those looking to whack GW around the head at every opportunity. I mean there are literally people that seem to make a living running YouTube channels that exist solely to explain why GW sucks on a twice-weekly basis.

So when you're operating in an environment like that - where you have rabid fans and equally rabid detractors, a lot of the usual rules for how you do business, and how you communicate with customers (or indeed, non-customers with a grudge) change. Just simply providing an honest, rational explanation often isn't the best solution.

That's not to say GW have it spot on, or that they've found the right balance. I sort of err towards thinking they're being a bit over-cautious on what they're saying in this case. Just that the comparisons with what a "normal" company would do are not necessarily useful.
   
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Austria

and there are 3 times as many channels that make a living by telling us how awesome everything is (and I don't follow anyone anymore who mainly has GW focused content)

friend asked today in the local GW store about it and was told that it was always planned as a one time only limited release but the PR guy misunderstood it and therefore advertised it the wrong way

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OKC, OK USA

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I mean, when the PS5 ran out no one thought "OMG! Does that mean I missed out? .


A LOT of people have been saying that, especially since it's been nearly 6 months and they're still only dropping maybe a couple 100 units each shipment. They're doing better than GW, but Sony can't keep up with demand either and there's still a ton of people worried they won't get one for a very long time.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/04/22 11:38:39


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 kodos wrote:

friend asked today in the local GW store about it and was told that it was always planned as a one time only limited release but the PR guy misunderstood it and therefore advertised it the wrong way


Makes sense he deleted his comment about it, then.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Billicus wrote:
If I were a shareholder I'd want to know what the feth happened. Let alone it being right (and only sensible) to tell customers what's going on too.


I'm pretty sure shareholders get communication about it...when the opportunity is there to do so.

About customers...unless you contact their shops or customer service, the only other thing left to do is, like I said, wait and see. That's only we can do at this point.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/22 11:40:08


 
   
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Nope, if shareholders knew anything more than we did, we'd also know it by now. It does NOT take much to be a GW shareholder.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/22 12:05:41


 
   
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Billicus wrote:
Nope, if shareholders knew anything more than we did, we'd also know it by now. It does NOT take much to be a GW shareholder.


That's why I added "when the opportunity is there to do so".

I don't know how companies send communication to their shareholders, that's not my job, but I guess that kind of communication needs a bit of planning and preparation - and it's certainly not made in a rush to cater to an unknown number of people throwing tantrum on the internet.

And I'm not sure most of the shareholders are particularly concerned about the availability of one product, anyway. Especially when it's not their core games.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/22 12:11:27


 
   
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U.k

The vast majority of shareholders don’t care that or even know that a specialist product for the form was messed up.

Most share holders don’t know they have shares, they will be bought as part of pension or investment funds.

And that’s what AGMs for for, and any share holder can ask the questions there. They would never pit in an EGM for a balls up around a niche sideline product like this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Wanting to know whether a highly popular box is coming back/will get expansions is "entitlement" now.

Ok. Sure.


No but demanding that a company goes out of its way to explain everything to you about a niche product release going tits up is. If it was just wanting to know if the box was coming back it would not be 6 pages of rage. Believing you are ENTITLED to anything more than GW have given you is definitely ENTITLEMENT.

Have you thought, maybe GW don’t know if it will come back or not?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/22 12:20:19


 
   
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 kodos wrote:
lord_blackfang wrote:Guys it's now been literally 6 pages of just bickering whether GW owes you an apology or not.

no, it is about why nu-GW now thinks that the way old-GW handled stuff was better


I hardly think that's a distinction worthy of pages of debate.

In the history of "Is GW evil" discussions, which have occurred more or less since GW fully launched it's vertically integrated games, this has to be among the dumbest. It's painfully obvious with even a quick glance that GW meant this to be a regular stock item, but something has happened which may prevent that. They have since retracted their social media messages stating that, but haven't made any official announcement about why. They have said that, as it stands,it might not reappear.

So, that leads us to wonder, what caused the change in plans? And why would GW not be transparent about that? the cynics might say "haha, see, GW is still opaque and evil and haven't change," and no doubt be thrilled that their distaste for a multinational corporation has been validated. To them, i say, enjoy your moment. You've cracked the code that a publicly traded company doesn't always treat it's customers well.

Me, personally? there's a copy at my FLGS, I could buy it today. I have plenty of solo games, so I'm not sure I need to jump in, despite FOMO. Further, I know that companies, even GW, have reasons for their actions. If they aren't communicating better about this, that means they are probably trying to hide something. Not necessarily something sinister, but I'm curious if they don't want to tip their hands about which vendors/contractors are having the problems. Or maybe the issue is internal. Or maybe they're still arguing about if they want to push it back into production.

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Shareholders generally find out stuff like this the same way the general public do, until a couple of key points throughout the year such as general meetings or the release of the annual earnings reports etc.


Plainly wasn't talking about people who are only invested passively through funds, that would be stupid.

A simple "This is gone and it's not coming back" or "We will announce something soon watch this space" isn't "going out of their way to explain everything to you" lol that's equally stupid
   
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yukishiro1 wrote:
GW doesn't like to explain, and it doesn't like to apologize. GW thinks "communication" means constantly bombarding the marks err customers with social-media style advertising "content." When things go wrong, radio silence is the preferred go-to, and when they go so wrong that isn't an option any more, they issue some kind of statement that is always very careful not to acknowledge it was their screw-up, and presenting whatever they're going to do about it as some big favor to everybody. People only think it's better than the Kirby era because back then they didn't even do the social media advertising err "engagement."

It's interesting, it's honestly rare to see a company so unwilling to hold up its hands when it screws up. Even their FAQs and errata never apologize or admit they got something wrong, no matter how badly they screw something up. Who can forget the Iron Hands nerf, where they so memorably let drop that they had been warned by the playtesting team what a fiasco they were creating, but decided to go ahead anyway because <reasons>, and then presented the fact that they were fixing what should never have been released in the first place as some sort of big gift to the community?


TBH, between GWs approach to communication and the shift towards FOMO releases, etc. since Kirby left, plus the high street "Warhammer Store" rebranding,etc. I am absolutely convinced that GW hired McKinsey & Co. to consult for them.

If I were a shareholder I'd want to know what the feth happened. Let alone it being right (and only sensible) to tell customers what's going on too.


I am a shareholder, and I absolutely do want to know what the feth happened. My investment no longer feels safe and I'm seriously considering selling out my holdings. With rumors swirling of production issues, ERP failures, etc. it sounds like theres a lot of potential for things to go very wrong for the company over the next few years. As a shareholder I do feel GW has a fiduciary duty to explain themselves to me and assure me that they have a grip on the situation.

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chaos0xomega wrote:
I am a shareholder, and I absolutely do want to know what the feth happened. My investment no longer feels safe and I'm seriously considering selling out my holdings. With rumors swirling of production issues, ERP failures, etc. it sounds like theres a lot of potential for things to go very wrong for the company over the next few years. As a shareholder I do feel GW has a fiduciary duty to explain themselves to me and assure me that they have a grip on the situation.

Reach out to the Investor Relations Team and they'll let you know what they can.


If you're not an investor / shareholder you can use the Complaints Form to let GW know how you feel.
   
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 Polonius wrote:

I hardly think that's a distinction worthy of pages of debate.

In the history of "Is GW evil" discussions, which have occurred more or less since GW fully launched it's vertically integrated games, this has to be among the dumbest. It's painfully obvious with even a quick glance that GW meant this to be a regular stock item, but something has happened which may prevent that

yet we have some that say it is not and the Twitter guy getting it wrong is more realisttic and GW changing their plans 1 day after release
thats why there are so many pages, for some it is obvious that something happend and GW does not want to tell, for others this is a very normal thing everyone else would do during corona and brexit

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/22 12:39:47


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 Platuan4th wrote:
A LOT of people have been saying that, especially since it's been nearly 6 months and they're still only dropping maybe a couple 100 units each shipment. They're doing better than GW, but Sony can't keep up with demand either and there's still a ton of people worried they won't get one for a very long time.
That's not even slightly the same thing. Sony is still making PS5s and is unable to meet demand. They didn't just sell out and then go radio silent on whether there would ever be another PS5 made.

So how is that at all similar to what happened with Cursed City?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/22 12:46:56


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