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In the SM codex it says things like: May replace chainsword and/or bolt pistol with.... Now my questions is, can you replace both for 2 different things like how it shows a SM Captain with 2 lightning claws on page 108 of the codex or the captain with Lightning claw and plasma pistol, because it says and/or implying you can only replace one thing or both things for 1 upgrade?




-Orkishly

usually it says can replace bolt pistol and or chainsword for the following, then it has a list of weapons such as plasma pistol, power sword, storm shield, power fist, etc.

if it only said "or" then you could only replace the chainsword for one item, or only replace the bolt pistol for one item. This way you can replace one if you want, or you can replace both and pick two items off of the list.

Oh ok thanks a lot. Would that mean that you can give anything with a PF option in the and/or spot 2 PF's?




-Orkishly

orkishlyorkish wrote:Oh ok thanks a lot. Would that mean that you can give anything with a PF option in the and/or spot 2 PF's?




-Orkishly

Only if you're awesome... are you awesome!?

djphranq wrote:

orkishlyorkish wrote:Oh ok thanks a lot. Would that mean that you can give anything with a PF option in the and/or spot 2 PF's?




-Orkishly

Only if you're awesome... are you awesome!?

Only if I'm awesome? Just my luck, now I can't give anything 2 PF's except for a vanguard vetteran sergeant which has the options to replace his chainsword I think it was, with a PF and then it says any model may replace their bolt pistol with a PF! Only time it gives a direct choice to take 2 PF's! YAY!!!!!




-Orkishly

yeah if it says you can, you can. Now you can finally take advantage of the +1 attack on the PF!!!!

No, no, no. Replacing the pistol and CCW weapon have diferent entires. You can replace your sword with a Powerfist, and your pistol with a TL bolter, but you can't replace your pistol with a Powerfist as well. You can replace both with 2 Lightning claws because it has it's own entry for that option.

if you look in the image below, the pistol and CCW are both in the same entry. You could have a dude with a bolter and a storm shield if you want to.
The main question is if you can have 2 of the same. you "might" be able to. I wonder if this was ever covered in a chapter approved.


EDIT: [image removed as it is of GW copyrighted material]

This is an arguement based on GW's very poor forethought. The "and" is for when you are replacing both weapons and the "or" is for when you are replacing just one. RAI, plain and simple.

EDIT: Missed my own point. GW meant you to replace weapons as is traditional, with a new format for listing things. They didn't see this coming however, which is a discredit to them.

Now that your point is made, I would delete that picture ASAP before you get slapped for copyright infringement

Actually you can replace one or the other or both, but only in certain insatynces will you gain a benefit and you pay for those benefits. If you want your Captain to have two Powerfists then you can do so for 60 points and he will gain one extra attack. You can give him two Storm Bolters or two Combi-Meltas if you want, although you cannot fire both weapons in the same turn, so in the first case no benefit, but in the second you would gain a second single extra melta shot during the game for your 10 point investment. I am thinking this was addressed maybe in the FAQ although I could be mistaken as I have seen this used on multiple occassions. It is arguable if the benefit is equal to the cost. I think they probably did this intentionally to increase options for both game play and modeling so that they may also increase figure sales. Tight wording has never been a GW strongsuit going back to Rogue Trader days.

Remember you can only have 1 two-handed weapon. So no twin combi-weapons.

Basically, you can replace one of the weapons with something from the list or both. So you can just replace the ccw, or just the BP, or both. Simples.

Meta.

There are no "handed" weapons any longer. You can have as many weapons as your entry says you can carry. A captain can have a thunderhammer and a stormshield, or two thunderhammers, or two stormbolters if he really wanted to. (stormbolters replace his closecombat weapona and bolt pistol). Yea! Four shots a turn on the move!

meta-ridley wrote:Remember you can only have 1 two-handed weapon. So no twin combi-weapons.

LMFAO!

Please, if you are not gonna bother to read the current rules, do not post.

There is no such thing as Handedness any more. You can take Dual Combi Weapons as much as you want. In Fact a Lot of my Friend Sergeants have dual combi weapons held Rambo style.

Captain Antonius wrote:Yea! Four shots a turn on the move!

No, Wrong wrong wrong. Unless specifically allowed, you may only ever use one ranged weapon per Shooting Phase. The reason you take dual Combi Weapons is so you get a 2shot Melta rather than a 1shot melta.

DarkHound wrote:
EDIT: Missed my own point. GW meant you to replace weapons as is traditional, with a new format for listing things. They didn't see this coming however, which is a discredit to them.

I don't know why you've come to that conclusion, but I think you're completely wrong IMHO.

The SM codex contains several pictures of models that could only be legally equipped if you are allowed to swap weapons out at will as indicated in the codex entries.

Besides, paying double the points to get two Powerfists or two Thunder Hammers just to get the +1 Attack bonus with these weapon is horribly overcosted for the advantage it gives so it absolutely isn't unbalancing to the game in any way.

Not to mention it is the only way to buy 2 Lightning Claws for most models (there is one who can buy 4, but we'll ignore him, the red-haired stepchild that he is)

yakface wrote:Besides, paying double the points to get two Powerfists or two Thunder Hammers just to get the +1 Attack bonus with these weapon is horribly overcosted for the advantage it gives so it absolutely isn't unbalancing to the game in any way.

Gee, it's almost as if... they Intended the cost... to be a Balancing factor... LE GASP!

Captain Antonius wrote:There are no "handed" weapons any longer.

Incorrect. There most definitely a need to know how many hands it takes to use a weapon beyond how many weapons a model can carry (whether or not they give a bonus attack in close combat with another single handed weapon, for example).

Ghaz wrote:

Captain Antonius wrote:There are no "handed" weapons any longer.

Incorrect. There most definitely a need to know how many hands it takes to use a weapon beyond how many weapons a model can carry (whether or not they give a bonus attack in close combat with another single handed weapon, for example).

Ghaz, stop being a troll. You know damn well that we were talking about limits to what you can hold, not about two handed Close combat weapons. Yes, there are rules for "two handed close combat weapons" but they are only found in 3rd and 4th edition codex's. All 5th edition codex's have no stipulations in the rules about how many hands it takes to use a weapon.

An example of this is the Assault Squad Sergeant. He can Swap his Bolt Pistol for a "Pair of Lightning Claws", AND his CCW for another "Pair of Lightning Claws". he can Hold 4 "hands" worth of weapons just fine, but can only use 2 in CC.

But then again, this is the guy who claims that unless a weapon is specifically stated as one handed you cannot get the bonus attack (meaning you cant use pistols to get it with a Power Weapon because Power Weapons are not specifically stated as one handed) so I don't know what to think. (No, that is not a personal attack, that is fact.)

Edits in red.

So I can have a Sergeant that is holding a regular (normally held in both hands) bolter in one hand and a chainsword in the other? Why would anybody want a bolt pistol then?

ImperatorServat wrote:So I can have a Sergeant that is holding a regular (normally held in both hands) bolter in one hand and a chainsword in the other? Why would anybody want a bolt pistol then?

Because the Bolter can't be used in close combat to get the +1 Attack bonus.

yakface wrote:

ImperatorServat wrote:So I can have a Sergeant that is holding a regular (normally held in both hands) bolter in one hand and a chainsword in the other? Why would anybody want a bolt pistol then?

Because the Bolter can't be used in close combat to get the +1 Attack bonus.

<Ghaz> Well, neither can the Bolt Pistol</Ghaz>

Sorry, could've resist

But yeah, yakface nailed it on the head there. it's all down to the role you anticipate your squad to fill.

Except for the little fact that the bolt pistol is a pistol weapon and follows those rules as found on page 29 of the Warhammer 40,000 5th edition rulebook which states that they are "... light enough to be carried and fired one-handed..." So no, I don't say that pistols can't be used for an extra +1 Attack, thank you very much since they're one of the few weapons that the rules clearly designate as being single-handed due to their weapon type.

Ghaz wrote:Except for the little fact that the bolt pistol is a pistol weapon and follows those rules as found on page 29 of the Warhammer 40,000 5th edition rulebook which states that they are "... light enough to be carried and fired one-handed..." So no, I don't say that pistols can't be used for an extra +1 Attack, thank you very much since they're one of the few weapons that the rules clearly designate as being single-handed due to their weapon type.

Actually, your argument in the other thread was that Power Weapons (specificaly Burnas that "counts as" a power weapon) are not "one handed close combat weapons" because they are not specifically stated to be 1 handed, so could not be combined with a pistol for another attack.

So while my claim of "Ghaz Says Pistols are not one handed weapons" was slightly Inaccurate, the consequences of the argument are the same, and I have edited my previous post to correct my error.

So? The fact that Yakface was getting across was that a pistol can be used to gain an extra +1 Attack whereas the bolter can't (because most players, even myself, play it as being a two-handed weapon even without a defintive statement of it being either a single- or two-handed weapon). Please read what's being said instead of trying to start a flame war.

I am not trying to start a flame war, all I was pointing out is that you do hold the view that Weapons not specificaly stated as being Single handed (Such as Power Weapons or Normal CCW, as they are never stated to be single handed, and the rules that grant the bonus attacks are for "Fighting with two single handed weapons") do not confer the extra attack when paired with a pistol. Not to mention that outside of a clause in the rulebook regarding two handed close combat weapons (which only applies to a very very small amount of weapons from older codex's), there is no stipulation on how many hands it takes to use any weapons, which is why you can take 2 Combi Weapons if you so wish.

Or have you decided to not support that "interpretation" anymore?

Come on guys, let's keep it nice and not accuse each other of flaming and trolling, etc.

Gwar wrote:I am not trying to start a flame war...

Calling people names and trying to make jokes at someone else's expense is nothing else than trying to start a flame war and against forum rule #1.
 

Gwar wrote:I was pointing out is that you do hold the view that Weapons not specificaly stated as being Single handed (Such as Power Weapons or Normal CCW, as they are never stated to be single handed, and the rules that grant the bonus attacks are for "Fighting with two single handed weapons") do not confer the extra attack when paired with a pistol.

And once again, you're trying to bend things to your purpose.  I never said that they can never be used in conjunction with a pistol to provide an extra +1 Attack  They do indeed provide an extra +1 Attack when paired with a pistol if they are single-handed.  It's just that GW never tells us whether or not many of the weapons in the game are single- or two-handed.  There's a big difference between saying "No, they never provide an extra +1 Attack" and "GW didn't give use enough information to make a defintive answer".
 

Gwar wrote: Not to mention that outside of a clause in the rulebook regarding two handed close combat weapons (which only applies to a very very small amount of weapons from older codex's), there is no stipulation on how many hands it takes to use any weapons, which is why you can take 2 Combi Weapons if you so wish.

Totally inconsequential.  Just because you're no longer limited to two single-handed or one single- and one two-handed weapon does not mean it's not necessary to know how many hands it takes to use a weapon and those rules are just thrown out.  From page 37 of the Warhammer 40,000 5th edition rulebook:
 

+1 Two Weapons: Engaged models with two single-handed weapons... get an extra +1 attack.

Because of that rule, you still need to know how many hands it takes to use a weapon to know if it can be used with another weapon to provide an extra +1 Attack in close combat.

Ghaz wrote:

+1 Two Weapons: Engaged models with two single-handed weapons... get an extra +1 attack.

Because of that rule, you still need to know how many hands it takes to use a weapon to know if it can be used with another weapon to provide an extra +1 Attack in close combat.

And as I have said, Weapons Classified as BRB Normal Close Combat Weapons or BRB Power Weapons are not Specified as one handed, so by your logic can never give a bonus attack when used together.

By normal people logic, two CCW Weapons will always give a Bonus attack unless specificaly stated to be 2 handed (ala Big Choppa) or stated to deny the bonus attack (ala Relic Blades or Power Fists).

And If I may ask a reasonable question, it is my understanding you are one of the "Rules People" for the Army Builder Datafiles, why have you not addressed this problem, as pretty much every single model that has a Pistol and CCW or Pistol and PW is given the bonus attack, when by your own admission they should not?

Sorry guys been away for a bit from Dakka so I haven't been able to reply and I have 1 thing to say... OMG ASSAULT SARGE CAN TAKE 4 LC's!!!!! Time to go buy an assault squad box so I can get started with the conversion. Before I saw your post about who could take 4 LC I was scanning my codex. Even though he gets no bonus it's still pretty awesome!!!



-Orkishly

ImperatorServat wrote:Lol sad times. At least as a newb I was able to figure out what the and/or rule means.

I knew what it meant but I was just clarifying. Technically and would mean you would swap both for one thing and I just wanted to clarify if you could swap each thing for something different just for the sake of clarifying so don't go throwing around the "what a newb" phrase






-Orkishly