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ductvader wrote:I personally don't even want it to even be able to be allies with IG.

Too many Guard players use DH as a crutch.

Inducted Stormtroopers are the closest thing to Guard that us Inquisitorial players need.

Your ignorance shines more brightly then the shining light of the Astronomicon. Bravo. Not only do you advocate that one of the most longstanding aspects of WH40K be removed, but also think IG should be a tier 2-3 army as a result. Wow.

I don't think it's a crazy idea to expect GW to remove the Allies rules; inter-codex dependence is something they're (undeniably) doing away with.
Neither do I think it's a crazy idea to expect GK and SOB players to want their codices to be balanced without the added weight and limitations of the IG and SM codex balance.

I don't think it's crazy to expect GW to do away with it either, but I think it would be a bad idea. The IG would lose their balance w/o a psychic hood and would be torn apart by psychic heavy armies as a result. Where do you see them doing away w/ inter codex dependency in the 5th ed releases so far?

Fluffwise, allies is a fairly good idea, and for the IG at least, it is fairly helpful, when you consider how psychic powers get more and more devestating to match the absurd counter measures armies are given against them (seriously... SW took a big steamy gak on every single Farseer that ever lived), Guard have nothing against that but ablatave wounds.

Kungfuhustler wrote:I don't think it's crazy to expect GW to do away with it either, but I think it would be a bad idea. The IG would lose their balance w/o a psychic hood and would be torn apart by psychic heavy armies as a result. Where do you see them doing away w/ inter codex dependency in the 5th ed releases so far?

C: Space Wolves and C: Blood Angels made references to C: Space Marine for wargear, which resulted in wonky things.

Fair enough. Wargear and induction are a smidgeon different but now I see where you're coming from.

I think the best approach is that any Codex that has allies, needs to just simply have included in it entries of the units that can be taken from another list. Each codex should stand on its own.

Ductvader is right when he says: "Too many Guard players use DH as a crutch. "

No other army gets to reach out of its book to cure its biggest limitation and weakness. I don't think IG are a low tier army, but any codex that needs a second codex to work and maintiain balance might as well be.

Thank you aka_mythos.

No one thinks IG are a lower tier army...I firmly believe that it is a codex that does not need DH to survive.

If and when Inquisition is released, I hope that it stands alone with all the might of the Emperor rolled into one army.

It just doesn't make sense the IG would want to or need to piggyback on that.

aka_mythos wrote:I don't think IG are a low tier army, but any codex that needs a second codex to work and maintiain balance might as well be.

I agree completely, and unfortunately I believe IG are exactly the army you are describing in that sentence. I'll shut up abut it now though, I've said it enough

Guard do not need allies to function. Although I guess it best to simply drop it, since any argument on the internet will not end well.

So I was wondering, if we do get separate codex, will they be released simultaneously or one at a time?

To be honest, I wouldn't mind allies staying, simply because I can use my Grey Knights as a boost to help get say... an IG army... started.

Luke_Prowler wrote:Guard do not need allies to function. Although I guess it best to simply drop it, since any argument on the internet will not end well.

So I was wondering, if we do get separate codex, will they be released simultaneously or one at a time?

One at a time, like GW has always done.

Mumbles around the internet on the codex coming out this fall...can't take it for granted...but when there's a paragraph about Grey Knights on pg 38 of the Blood Angels book...you have to wonder.

I WANT A GK STORMRAVEN!!!

Vhalyar wrote:

Luke_Prowler wrote:Guard do not need allies to function. Although I guess it best to simply drop it, since any argument on the internet will not end well.

So I was wondering, if we do get separate codex, will they be released simultaneously or one at a time?

One at a time, like GW has always done.

Oh yay, because that's just what we need. Three space marine codexs in a row.

No one said it was next. So don't sensationalize.

Grey Knights are a world apart from Space Marines.

Congratulations Luke_Prowler, that was a wonderfully slowed train of thought. Yes, GW will obviously release these codices in succession. Woe be Dark Eldar, Necrons, Tau and everyone else, these codices (we don't know if it will be one, two or three) will take priority over all.

Sorry if that sounded trollish, I just don't like the idea of Grey Knights being released as a separate Codex.

I think I'd prefer;

Codex inquisition - the abillity to field INQUISITION units from all 3 ordos

Codex Grey knights - tittle says all

Codex Ecclarchy (Sp?) - sisters of battle and priests.

But the format their in now would also work.

Personally I'm hoping for a stand alone codex with no allies rules.

Allies sounds great and makes perfect sense fluff wise and at the time of the release everything is usually alright with those rules. However over time as things change, ally rules trend to move from being cool to being abused. Take the Psychic Hood for example, GW decided to limit their range instead of affecting the entire battlefield (good call), however because of the allies rules in place, everyone just stopped using the new versions and picked up allies that had the old versions when they want psychic defense. Until their codices are updated, there is really nothing anyone can do I guess. I mean when people usually say they have Inquisition allies, 95% of the time it is either an Inquisitor (or Lord version) or Grey Knight Terminators which just isn't right in my book.

I would like to see them drop all allies rules completely honestly. I will even say just drop the Inquisition all together and make Codex: Grey Knights and Codex: Sisters of Battle. Through I would miss my assassins (and I LOVE them), I think it would be better in the long run.

Luke_Prowler wrote:Sorry if that sounded trollish, I just don't like the idea of Grey Knights being released as a separate Codex.

Have to agree here, GKs without a strong Inquisition component sounds meh.

Well yeah...right now what do GK's have that is theirs?

Troops
Terminators
Stern and GrandMasters
Good Dreads
Storm Raven
Psycannon
Incinerator
LR
LRC
GK Special rules that are too daemon oriented

Not much that doesn't mimic space marines...

And besides that...all the fluff says grey knights and inquisiton work together on almost everything...read the omnibus...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Don't get me wrong...I love grey knights as is.

They are my first and my most played army...but I want the inquisitors

First post ever on Dakka, but I follow a lot of the threads.

I hope when they redo the codex that they just round it out. As someone who plays Grey Knights, but doesn't like using IG allies, I think that rounding out the GK codex would be the best choice.

Although I am indifferent about them keeping/losing allies I would like to see a few more options to round off the army and make it viable as only Grey Knights.

ductvader wrote:Pretty sure everyone thinks that it's going to turn out like Anpu describes...

Everybody clamoring for One Book To Rule Them All wants an Anpu list.

Everybody wanting standalone Sisters and standalone Inquisition as separate books thinks the unlocking and such is unnecessary when dedicated Codices do away with the very notion.

Aside from the DC being 0-1 in C: BA, are there any other restricted units since C: Eldar that aren't Special Characters?


And really, if GW did a Anpu-style book, it'd be like this:

Elites:
Imp. Assassin, DCA
GKTs, GKPA
SoB Veterans, Sisters
DW Veterans
Inducted Marines, Inducted Guardsmen

Troops:
Stormtroopers (Arbites)

One Troops choice, massively overloaded Elites, and the HQs would simply allow you to take GKPA, or Sisters, Guardsmen, or Marines as Troops. Something like that.

ductvader wrote:Well yeah...right now what do GK's have that is theirs?

Troops
Terminators
Stern and GrandMasters
Good Dreads
Storm Raven
Psycannon
Incinerator
LR
LRC
GK Special rules that are too daemon oriented

Not much that doesn't mimic space marines...

I think they're very likely to get the Land Raider Redeemer. Venerable or Librarian dreadnought as well.

If we assume GW will be making the power armor Grey Knights and Terminators in plastic, I think its safe to assume that they'll try to make the most of the kits and give a number of new options, but those new options could very well only be available to a new unit entry. For example, if GK termies got a "GK Assault Terminator" squad with storm shields replacing storm bolter.

In that same vein I wouldn't be surprised if Grey Knight dreadnoughts get reworked with new options and rules, given a new kit, and emphasized similarly to the Blood Angels Codex where more than 3 can be taken.

I think it might be appropriate if GK got some sort of "lone wolf" type character, in the sense of it being a single powerful GK running around on his own. This could easily be done as an alternative to GK Librarians. They could carry the spirited imagery of the dragon hunting knights of a fantasy setting, with daemons treated as the equivalent to a 40k dragon.

Given the direction this edition has gone, I think there will be a good number of special characters. I could see GW doing another couple of the 13 Grandmasters, maybe a veteran sergeant, maybe a Chaplain-esque character. I wouldn't be surprised if there were a character who made Terminator GK a troop choice.

GK, genrally need more in the way of Heavy Support and Fast Attack choices. If GW wants to really push the Storm Raven sales, I could see it count as either depending on how GK equip it. Jet Bikes fit their imagery and singularly can fill in for jumppack, bike, and landspeeder options, and seem a popular solution.

Didn't even think about the characters...

Things I dream of:

I'd love to see something/anything that makes it easier for GK to live longer...yes they are in power armor...but these guys already cost so much more than and are supposed to be heartier than any marine...I think FNP or T5 on the troops would be exceptional. Or increase the effectiveness of shrouding...that works too.

GK are getting the StormRaven...no doubt there. I don't think it';; be heavy. Heavies might be Dreads, Penitents, SoB tanks, current heavy squads,and LR variants. I could see some stuff being shifted to the underused elite spot.

Incinerator Redeemers...woahdang.

I personally don't think dreads will be emphasized as much as BA...but I could see them getting a strength 10 force weapon...just makes sense to me...

Grey Knights assaulting out of deepstrike...I cold see it given taking a special character like Hector Rex or someone who similarly can predict the future accurately.

I don't forsee Dread drop pods...but teleporting dreads instead.

I think you will be able to take GK with a certain HQ and Sisters with another...Stormtroopers regardless of which side...you'll be able to work them side by side but the list may not mesh as well as otherwise.

Do away with allies. Inquisition based codex needs Inquisition based troops and weaponry...why would the inquisition bring in troops that would fall so quickly to corruption?

I don't see jet bikes being worked in...I feel that's just something people want because Grey Knights need either A:higher mobility or B:more anti-tank. Though the idea of jetbikes seems cool to me...I don't see a Grey Knight hopping on one and flying around rather than crashing one into a pile of bloodletters and slicing 4 of them up before they realize it. (Would be cool if they could dismount bikes or something of that sort...but that's never going to happen.) The Codex needs some speed though...I do not want teleporting LRs.

A lone wolf character...I don't see Grey Knights being so uncoordinated and feral...Sisters either...I think it would have to be a beefy inquisitor...with a company of death cultists...for the fun of it.

Just spitballing ideas for the fun of it...(^_^)

I think the easiest ways to improve the power armored Grey Knights survivability is to justify through fluff either a 2+ artificer armor save or a better invulnerable save. Also whats not to say GW doesn't come up with a veteran power armor GK squad that has such stat improvements over basic power armor GK.

The idea of a combined codex, came from a rumor that pre-dates more recent conversations with GW designers. On more than one occaision different designers have said that their intention with the Daemonhunter and Witch Hunter codices is to keep them separate books and refocus them on Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle, to down play the role of the Inquisitor.

So you really have to put yourself in the mindset of how to build a Grey Knight book with sprinklings of Inquisition. That said I don't really see too much cross over occuring between Gk and SOB. For example any thing a penitent engine can do a Grey Knight Dread will likely do better. Redundancy is exactly what the whole two book approach avoids.

I thought I made it clear, when I said lonewolf, I just meant in the sense of 1-3 models as a single unit that can act independent of each other sort of way. That would be abnormally power psykers on par with Librarians. That they would need a unique heroic slant, and the knightly image of a dragonslayer seemed appealing for this.

I think it would be interesting deviation from plain Grey Knights, if some option allowed for the taking of Excorcist space marines, that would have mild controled daemoninc mutations per their fluff.

What about Codex Custodes before any of the DH/WH or Codex Crimson Fists?

*Ducks*

Seriously I would love to see them redo GH and DH although I find Inquisitors really annoying and hate people suggesting I take them in my IG - I don't like them so I'll suffer as a result.

I'm all for banning allies.

Without a doubt they will be immensely powerful psychically. I could see every Justicar and Dread having access to abilities.

i agree inquisitors are annoying.

i only take an elite one so i can get an assassin.



the biggest thing GKs need is transport options. rhinos and drop pods at the minimum.

All GK dreds should be able to get 1 psychic power.

all units should get psybolts, but psybolts need to only ignore invulns and not drop the AP of the weapon. this allows some deamons to retain effectivness.

psycannons are fine. incinerators are fine.

LRs need to be able to replace HBs and assault cannons with TL-psycannons.

add GK LRreedemer with flamestorm cannons that ignore invulns(Forge world makes this already)

GKs should all have the ability that mystics have(free round of shooting at DS models) allows a counter to deamons while still being generic enough for other armies.

Brother captains should have force weapons. all grey knights have power weapons.

Melta weapons need to be added to PAGK options.

all GKs should be able to teliport in for a nominal points cost.

i like the idea of jet bikes and jump packs.

Terminators should be able to swap storm bolters for SS

more awsome psychic powers.