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Guitardian wrote:... however, you can't get away with toting guns around in large groups in a densely populated area. Out in the country they can get away with becoming an armed mob much more easily.

A street gang can easily be considered an armed mob.

The Green Git wrote:
Socialism is a political economic theory that seeks to redistribute wealth in some sort of "fairness" that is sought by the workers.

Its actually a large collection of political economic theories. Its a very difficult word to provide a singular definition for, as there is a lot of contingency present with respect to individual authors and projects.

The Green Git wrote:
The word "Socialist" means to advocate Socialism.

No, the word socialist is an adjective, not a verb.

The Green Git wrote:
Per Webster:

Main Entry: so·cial·ism
Pronunciation: \ˈsō-shə-ˌli-zəm\
Function: noun
Date: 1837
1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done


I think you'll find that protecting individual rights including that of owning arms is directly counter to definitions 1, 2a and 2b of the word "Socialism".

No, that's false.

Definition 1 only mentions that socialism deals in state ownership and control over the means of production. It does not specify that the state must control all the means of production in order to be socialist, therefore there is no contradiction.

Definition 2 does not necessarily contradict the protection of individual rights, as not all individual rights are related to property. It would, however, prevent the protection of any rights that turn on ownership. Of course, its worth noting that no state broadly considered (in the US) to be operating under a socialist system (the Nordic states, England, France, etc.) actually governs in a manner consistent with the definition in question.

Definition 3 does not preclude the protection of individual rights, except in the sense that those related to property must be negated in order to proceed to a state of communism. However, this is a poor definition as it really only applies to Marxist theory (as noted), and therefore is of little use when considering socialism independently of that project.

You can have a socialist society with lots of individual protections, and you can have a capitalist society with virtually none. Rights are not intrinsically connected to a given economic system; excepting those rights which are required in order for the basic assumptions of the economic model to hold true. For example, the right to property under a system containing capitalist influences.

I got one request to lock the thread. I'm WAY too lazy to read an eight-page OT political monstrosity, so I'll wait and see if we get more Mod Alert complaints.

Speaking of gun-toting rednecks I traded my Tyranid army for a Ruger SR9.

So now I have 2 handguns and a shotgun to defend myself. Next on my list: An AK-47 and an AR-15.

Fateweaver wrote:Speaking of gun-toting rednecks I traded my Tyranid army for a Ruger SR9.

So now I have 2 handguns and a shotgun to defend myself. Next on my list: An AK-47 and an AR-15.

Aren't you unemployed? Why are you buying more guns?

@ Fate.

I honestly must ask you,with no judgement attached,why would you want (aside from a colector perspective) both an AK-47 and a AR-15?

I can understand one or the other...but both?

ShumaGorath wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:Speaking of gun-toting rednecks I traded my Tyranid army for a Ruger SR9.

So now I have 2 handguns and a shotgun to defend myself. Next on my list: An AK-47 and an AR-15.

Aren't you unemployed? Why are you buying more guns?

Trade Shuma, trade.

For fun shooting. Can actually hunt with an AR-15 (so long as I don't get trigger happy spewing all that dakka).

No it makes ya feel like a man!

Fateweaver wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:Speaking of gun-toting rednecks I traded my Tyranid army for a Ruger SR9.

So now I have 2 handguns and a shotgun to defend myself. Next on my list: An AK-47 and an AR-15.

Aren't you unemployed? Why are you buying more guns?

Trade Shuma, trade.

For fun shooting. Can actually hunt with an AR-15 (so long as I don't get trigger happy spewing all that dakka).

Wouldn't it have been better to sell the army and use the money for food or transport to job prospects? Didn't the army cost nothing while the ammo will cost money?

Also an AR15 isn't a very good hunting weapon, expensive to feed maintain and the 5.56 round wont take down big game very well.

I've tried to sell. It wasn't working well.

I'm also working part time now starting Monday and Obama just extended my UI payments 2 more months (bout the only thing I can give him credit for) so with my part time job and the UI I can claim for the hours I don't work I'm set for now until something better comes along.

5.56 will take out a deer. Though I'm thinking of trying bow hunting this year. It's apparently more challenging than rifle hunting.

@Guitardian: It apparently makes you a man to attack my posts about guns. I hope you never find yourself in a situation you have to defend your life. At least I can if I have to. More power to you if you stay safe.

I've tried to sell. It wasn't working well.

I'm also working part time now starting Monday and Obama just extended my UI payments 2 more months (bout the only thing I can give him credit for) so with my part time job and the UI I can claim for the hours I don't work I'm set for now until something better comes along.

Well its good to hear that you're getting back on your feet.

5.56 will take out a deer. Though I'm thinking of trying bow hunting this year. It's apparently more challenging than rifle hunting.

It will take out a deer with a good shot, but without a clean one it has a chance of getting a good distance before expiring. Bow hunting is significantly more challenging. The weapon is less accurate and shorter ranged forcing you to be an all around better hunter.

@Guitardian: It apparently makes you a man to attack my posts about guns. I hope you never find yourself in a situation you have to defend your life. At least I can if I have to. More power to you if you stay safe.

Your posts attacking pot smoking socialists aren't really any different than his attacking crazy gun nuts.

Except he made it personal.

If he's a pot-smoking socialist than it'd be personal.

I don't consider myself a gun-nut Bible thumper (as I'm not actually far right, I do disagree with the hard right on a few things) but comments like "it makes him a man" is a personal attack, not a blanket attack like mine is about pot-smoking socialists.

Fateweaver wrote:(bout the only thing I can give him credit for)

A socialist policy?

@ Fate.

I would suggest you look into the Ruger mini-14,it's much more affordable then either an AK-47 or AR-15,it chambers the same round as the AR-15,10 round magazine plus mounts scopes for hunting,and will also accept 20 and 30 round mags for target shooting.

That being said,perhaps you should sell one of your pistols and use the money for more important needs,at least until you are in a better finacail situation.

And Shuma brings up some excelent points concerning bow hunting.

true, instead of buying guns, i sez buy food. you can't eat guns, but you can eat food.

isthatmycow wrote:true, instead of buying guns, i sez buy food. you can't eat guns, but you can eat food.

You can eat a gun. I tell people to do exactly that all the time. It just doesn't really do the same thing as food.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fateweaver wrote:Except he made it personal.

If he's a pot-smoking socialist than it'd be personal.

I don't consider myself a gun-nut Bible thumper (as I'm not actually far right, I do disagree with the hard right on a few things) but comments like "it makes him a man" is a personal attack, not a blanket attack like mine is about pot-smoking socialists.

You get personal all the time with your implications and insults.

I'm handling bills fine now. I can't afford 40k but that is more expensive than owning a gun. That and I'm kind of holding off to see what summer brings. Hoping for DE by Aug/September as rumors seem to indicate.

Dogma: I see what you did there. You won't give up until you are satisfied that I'll agree socialism is a good thing. It's not a good form of government, even with the "little" handouts I get.

You pointed out yourself that socialists ideals of "sharing the wealth" is a fallacy. In Soviet Russia the millionaires were still millionaires and the poor still starved.

Again, most of the "social reforms" liberals want go against the Constitution. I'm also not anit-social help. I'm anti-getting-help-for-doing-nothing. I don't get UI unless I work at a job, meet certain qualifying conditions and the employer does not try to deny me payment (which, whether I qualify or not the employer can choose do to). Welfare, in and of itself, is utter bs. Oh, I just turned 18, I've never worked a day in my life but now I get a few hundred dollars a month for food, free MA, free phone and reduced rates on cable tv (yes, here where I live you get free land line from one of our providers and cable tv at reduced rate from our cable company if your income is below a certain level) and oh look, I have 3 kids so I get even more money for doing nothing, get WIC as well, and free pediatric care and free daycare.

I could technically apply for welfare, even with my now reinstated UI and my part time job. I don't because I didn't do anything to deserve all the other benefits except be born here (or not born here as is the case of all the illegals getting help) and so I would, in essance, be leeching off peoples hard work. You might see it as leeching now but I had to work 60 hours a week at some point to make what I do collecting UI.

One requires actually working and not losing your job through fault of your own, the other just requires you be 18, not making so much a month and that's it. Kids are a bonus and add more to your coffer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ShumaGorath wrote:

isthatmycow wrote:true, instead of buying guns, i sez buy food. you can't eat guns, but you can eat food.

You can eat a gun. I tell people to do exactly that all the time. It just doesn't really do the same thing as food.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fateweaver wrote:Except he made it personal.

If he's a pot-smoking socialist than it'd be personal.

I don't consider myself a gun-nut Bible thumper (as I'm not actually far right, I do disagree with the hard right on a few things) but comments like "it makes him a man" is a personal attack, not a blanket attack like mine is about pot-smoking socialists.

You get personal all the time with your implications and insults.

It takes two people to sling mud Shuma and your hands aren't clean so I'd look in the mirror before saying I sling insults all the time.

I was also talking to Guitardian. I've not attacked him on a personal level yet. Nice try though.

Gold Star.

You pointed out yourself that socialists ideals of "sharing the wealth" is a fallacy. In Soviet Russia the millionaires were still millionaires and the poor still starved.

Aren't millionaires millionaires wherever they are? It's part of being a millionaire.

It takes two people to sling mud Shuma and your hands aren't clean so I'd look in the mirror before saying I sling insults all the time.

I was also talking to Guitardian. I've not attacked him on a personal level yet. Nice try though.

Gold Star.

You'll notice though that I never develop the persecution complex that you post with often.

I've come to learn that those people who attack and belittle everyone around them daily hate themselves inside.

So deep down inside you feel more persecuted than I do. You just try not to show it.

I have a feeling you've reported me more than I've reported you so who's feeling persecuted Shoom?


Bow hunting: I'll be able to try it this fall at least. Uncle goes bow hunting on occasion. I'm a good shot with a gun. Sure a bow is different but if I can win trophies for my gun skills I should learn quick how to aim a bow.

Fateweaver wrote:I've come to learn that those people who attack and belittle everyone around them daily hate themselves inside.

So deep down inside you feel more persecuted than I do. You just try not to show it.

I have a feeling you've reported me more than I've reported you so who's feeling persecuted Shoom?

Actually I think I've reported you three times ever and usually it was for one sentence posts that had nothing to do with the context of the thread. By contrast I reported green bow fly like I was getting a dollar per report to do it. As for my self hate, I think you have it backwards. I love me. I hate a lot of things. A lot. More than is healthy. But i'm not one of those things.

You have me fooled. On one hand you act like the Earth revolves around you, on the other I get a feeling like you cut yourself every night and listen to emo music and ask the ceiling why the world hates you.

It's not healthy Shuma. Perhaps a visit to a gun-toting redneck state like Mn would do you some good.

Just make sure you get a good life insurance policy first and make sure the beneficiary is someone you really want to have the money. Lots of gun-toting rednecks and peat bogs in Mn.

Fateweaver wrote:
Dogma: I see what you did there. You won't give up until you are satisfied that I'll agree socialism is a good thing. It's not a good form of government, even with the "little" handouts I get..

I don't expect you to state that socialism is a good thing. I don't actually expect you to do anything. What I expect is for others, and perhaps yourself, to recognize that there is no line one crosses to move from a capitalist system to a socialist one. In all successful cases you will find that capitalist and socialist theory are leveraged to a varying extent in order to produce a desired outcome.

Realistically, it doesn't even make much sense to separate the two in a rigid, spectral fashion. As, in general, those discreet projects of economics which serve to generate ideas for the future tend to incorporate elements of both in order to account for all potential difficulties. Once you pick those projects apart, the assumptions and countermeasures which support no longer hold true, and the theory falls apart.

Fateweaver wrote:You have me fooled. On one hand you act like the Earth revolves around you, on the other I get a feeling like you cut yourself every night and listen to emo music and ask the ceiling why the world hates you.

It's not healthy Shuma. Perhaps a visit to a gun-toting redneck state like Mn would do you some good.

Just make sure you get a good life insurance policy first and make sure the beneficiary is someone you really want to have the money. Lots of gun-toting rednecks and peat bogs in Mn.

Again, you misunderstand my wish to cut other people, such as tea party protesters with a wish to cut myself. If Im mutilating myself it would make it hard to do it to the people that need it!

Hey fateweaver it wasn't meant personally. Just yet another generalisation of why people THINK they need guns. Gee I hope I never have to defend my life hanging in the balance with TWO assault rifles and a couple handguns handy for backup because I don't live in a Bruce Willis action movie, it is unlikely to ever come to such a travesty of "to defend myself" rationale. Maybe some folks do, I dunno, but it never got double assault-rifle tough when I lived in the South Bronx, or Detroit. Maybe a handgun for personal protection, but TWO ASSAULT RIFLES??!! That goes beyond personal protection and into the realm of psycho-therapy.

Guitardian wrote:Hey fateweaver it wasn't meant personally. Just yet another generalisation of why people THINK they need guns. Gee I hope I never have to defend my life hanging in the balance with TWO assault rifles and a couple handguns handy for backup because I don't live in a Bruce Willis action movie, it is unlikely to ever come to such a travesty of "to defend myself" rationale. Maybe some folks do, I dunno, but it never got double assault-rifle tough when I lived in the South Bronx, or Detroit. Maybe a handgun for personal protection, but TWO ASSAULT RIFLES??!! That goes beyond personal protection and into the realm of psycho-therapy.

People say that about owning armies of little toy tanks too.

very good point sir. But your Leman Russ ain't going to give you a delusion that you can stop the federal government, only a horde of little toy bugs from a fictional galaxy. Hmmm... kind of the same delusion I guess.

Guitardian wrote:very good point sir. But your Leman Russ ain't going to give you a delusion that you can stop the federal government, only a horde of little toy bugs from a fictional galaxy. Hmmm... kind of the same delusion I guess.

Would you quit bashing people that own guns? Owning guns and wanting to form militias are two different things.

@Fateweaver- Why an AK? Why not get something classy, like an FAL, or something neat, like an M1?

RustyKnight wrote:
@Fateweaver- Why an AK? Why not get something classy, like an FAL, or something neat, like an M1?

+1

I've thought of an M1. AK can be thrown off a cliff, dropped out of a pickup truck and still fire.

Garand would make a very good hunting rifle for this fall. I've actually gone hunting with one. We'll see what I can afford come August or September.

Guitardian: I did not say I was going to have assault rifles to defend myself. I said for sport shooting and for general coolness. Buddy of mine has an M16 with a 100 round mag. It's fun to go knock out a few rounds (few hundred) on occasion.

Anyone that knows guns (and you apparently don't) knows you don't use an assault rifle in your house for defense. Too big, too unwieldy and too much risk of stray bullet killing innocent civilian.

RustyKnight wrote:

Guitardian wrote:very good point sir. But your Leman Russ ain't going to give you a delusion that you can stop the federal government, only a horde of little toy bugs from a fictional galaxy. Hmmm... kind of the same delusion I guess.

Would you quit bashing people that own guns? Owning guns and wanting to form militias are two different things.

@Fateweaver- Why an AK? Why not get something classy, like an FAL, or something neat, like an M1?

NO I WONT! because you can shoot me.
duh.

I don't know if you are dumb or not, but I do know that if you DO happen to be dumb, your gun becomes a problem for me.

To what do you measure a gun owners intelligence against?

Compared to a bio-physicist I'm dumb.

Compared to someone who's never touched a computer in their life I'm a genius.

That last post makes me think you are a teen out to insult people as much as possible.

You are starting to make Shuma look like a saint and that's saying something.