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ShumaGorath wrote:

Ya know, mostpeople haven't graduated high school because they aren't seniors yet? Do I really have to point these sorts of things out ?

Most people in the world or america? I'm pretty sure most american citizens have high school degrees or ged equivalents (most being 51%+). By that same "logic" most people fail courses that they are clearly bad at .

Would Shuma argue with a fence post?

Arguing semantics = fail of the most epic of proportions.

Guitardian wrote:Well, I don't think my high school graduation status is really an issue here frazzled... Just a different taste in what constitutes 'hot' I suppose. I didn't take offense to what you said, I am proud to be an eternal child, and my gutterpunk background gives me different standards than the next guy I guess.

I was hoping you had not graduated yet, and merely had no experience in life. Your blanket statements about Republicans, women, etc. etc. indicate limited experience.

This thread seems to have veered a little off-topic eh?

I have read this thread and have enjoyed it much more thanks to all of you.

Frazzled is still my favorite mod.

I would love to acutally post and contribute, but I am off to my 40k club!

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:This thread seems to have veered a little off-topic eh?

I have read this thread and have enjoyed it much more thanks to all of you.

Frazzled is still my favorite mod.

I would love to acutally post and contribute, but I am off to my 40k club!

Go forth and be productive!

Frazzled wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Ya know, mostpeople haven't graduated high school because they aren't seniors yet? Do I really have to point these sorts of things out ?

Most people in the world or america? I'm pretty sure most american citizens have high school degrees or ged equivalents (most being 51%+). By that same "logic" most people fail courses that they are clearly bad at .

Would Shuma argue with a fence post?

You're the one threatening to ban me for doing something you did two posts earlier. Sorry for pointing out the double standard while you plug your ears and hum.

Thats not humming Shuma. Thats all the dogs that only I can see talking to me at the same time. Get it right!

Guitardian wrote:Now of course I do pay my taxes, but that is the nature of taxes. Not everyone benefits specifically from every government program, but we all benefit as a whole and those in charge do their best to use our money wisely for the good of the population in general.

"From each according to their means; To each, according to their need"... where have I heard that before?

Guitardian wrote:Opposing tax increase is a virtue of the shortsightedly selfish. Discussing how those taxes are used for the benefit of everyone who chips in, as best as possible, is a more sensible way of approaching it.

I love they hypocrisy of how the people that are benefiting from the work of others call the workers names when they are asked to pull their own weight. The attempt to shift the argument from the morality of theft by government force to one of selfishness on the part of the person wanting to retain the fruits of their own labor is not missed.

OK, since you brought it up let's discuss how "everyone who chips in" really works. You have a tax system structured so that half of tax filers pay NOTHING into the system and the top 25% of filers pay 86% of the taxes collected.

Tell me again how everyone chips in as best they can? In reality you have half the population freeloading off the other half for those roads and government services.

The Green Git wrote:I love they hypocrisy of how the people that are benefiting from the work of others call the workers names when they are asked to pull their own weight. The attempt to shift the argument from the morality of theft by government force to one of selfishness on the part of the person wanting to retain the fruits of their own labor is not missed.

OK, since you brought it up let's discuss how "everyone who chips in" really works. You have a tax system structured so that half of tax filers pay NOTHING into the system and the top 25% of filers pay 86% of the taxes collected.

Tell me again how everyone chips in as best they can? In reality you have half the population freeloading off the other half for those roads and government services.

WTF are you talking about?

I think he's pointing out that only half the eligible US citizenry now pays federal income taxes.

The Green Git wrote:
Oh... so until the official "Crash the Tea Party" web site launched no one tried discrediting the tea party goers?

That's a bit naive, don't you think?

No more naive than attempting to determine the intent of a person on the basis of an expression in a single photograph.

"From each according to their means; To each, according to their need"... where have I heard that before?

You do realize that in large part due to social reforms and government wealth redistribution the soviet union became one of the premiere industrial and scientific centers of power on the planet, and they did it damn fast. Chinas currently on the way to doing something similar though with an eye towards a sustainable economy the likes of which the soviets forgot to make. Oddly enough america didn't become an economic powerhouse until AFTER the depression and the new deal. It's as if your just blowing smoke around.

I love they hypocrisy of how the people that are benefiting from the work of others call the workers names when they are asked to pull their own weight. The attempt to shift the argument from the morality of theft by government force to one of selfishness on the part of the person wanting to retain the fruits of their own labor is not missed.

As soon as you start to make your money outside of a system that provides you significant benefits including fire safety, law enforcement, healthcare, national and criminal defense, courts, judges, business and scholastic regulations, roads, scientific advancements, infrastructural improvements and so on you get to bitch about getting your "money stolen".

OK, since you brought it up let's discuss how "everyone who chips in" really works. You have a tax system structured so that half of tax filers pay NOTHING into the system and the top 25% of filers pay 86% of the taxes collected.

Yes, and the bottom tax bracket also works significantly more hours per dollar per capita than the top. Capitalism isn't fair. Deal with it.

Tell me again how everyone chips in as best they can? In reality you have half the population freeloading off the other half for those roads and government services.

Yes and the top percentage that has the majority percentage of american wealth clearly worked so damn hard alone to get all that money. It's not like they surf on the backs of the poor freeloaders who spend their lives toiling so that big money pockets can retire to a 2 million dollar bonus.

The Green Git wrote:The attempt to shift the argument from the morality of theft by government force to one of selfishness on the part of the person wanting to retain the fruits of their own labor is not missed.

By equating taxation with theft you've already assumed a moral stance. If you were really interested in the issue of morality and the state, you would as the question "Is taxation tacit to theft?"

The Green Git wrote:
OK, since you brought it up let's discuss how "everyone who chips in" really works. You have a tax system structured so that half of tax filers pay NOTHING into the system and the top 25% of filers pay 86% of the taxes collected.

Does that fact represent a significant difference in terms of quality of life?

The Green Git wrote:
Tell me again how everyone chips in as best they can? In reality you have half the population freeloading off the other half for those roads and government services.

Raw percentages do not indicate that the argument you're attempting to criticize is invalid. It is entirely possible that the 53% of the nation that does not pay taxes cannot afford to do so in terms relevant to the living wage.

One of my philosophy professors and a poli-sci professor and I were at lunch together a while back, and the poli-sci guy said something along the lines of:

"taxes and social programs are just a bribe from the 'haves' to the 'have-nots' so the 'have-nots' are satisfied with their station and don't upset the system which lets the 'haves' 'have'."

something like that. Look what happened in Cuba... The poor people decided they no longer wanted to be poor people, since the system that made the rich people 'rich' was the same one that made them 'poor'. So they just TOOK what they wanted, and the rich were no longer rich, and an entire economic and political system reset itself and all those 'poor' rich people who got their property confiscated by communists. That's what happens when a government doesn't take care of its people.

The Green Git wrote:

Dunno... guess it's the desire for a mature woman and not a half dressed barely legal with a tramp stamp. Go figure.

Chase that dream !

The advantage being at that age they can't move so fast, so you're in with a shot !

Living in Oklahoma, the thing that just cracks me up is that we have socialized medicine in the InsureOklahoma debacle. Meanwhile, instead of looking in their own backyards to clean things up in the state to stop waste and abuse, these thinking-challenged individuals want to point fingers and actually sue the Federal Govt. Nevermind Oklahoma is one of the, if not the, poorest states in the country and nearly dead last in education spending and other things.

You're right, lets ignore how screwed up our state is and point fingers at the federal government, who gives us tons of money each year. Makes complete sense.

I think it was established in a supreme court case (I forget the name it was a long time ago) that you cannot actually sue the federal government, you can only petition it for repairations. Kind of makes sense, since they own the courts.

Guitardian wrote:I think it was established in a supreme court case (I forget the name it was a long time ago) that you cannot actually sue the federal government, you can only petition it for repairations. Kind of makes sense, since they own the courts.

You can sue them under the Federal Tort Claims Act, 28 U.S.C. § 346(b), 2671 - 2680. It's a stretch though.

Its flows from old English common law. You cannot sue the Crown, absent specific exemptions found in common law or permitted under statute (for example suing to protect one of your rights under the Bill of Rights). Spanish (read Napoleonic Code) law is actually similar.

The issue is Green git, People are too poor to pay taxes. all in the past decade, Everybody borrowed. People living in the suberbs were able to hid the dept rot for years, and people in inner-cities farm lands and old mill towns suffered badly. If 52% of people don't pay taxes, then the system in broken not the tax code. Poor people don't make enought to live, try living on 8$ an hour with a family) and CEOs make millions more than they should

You could tax the poor but you'd be pulling a bone from a starving dog.

If everybody who worked got enough pay to live above poverty then they would be taxed.

Distribution of wealth is the answer how?

Under ideal socialist conditions that pot smoking liberals want to live under a CEO would make the same income as a garbage collector.

That's great if you are the garbage collector but if you own a business that nets greater than $20,000 per year (or whatever a garbage collector in a large city makes) you will feel ripped off and less inclined to actually do your own thing and be your own boss as the incentive is not there.

Working as cashier at a gas station is not a glamorous job but if I was doing that and making the same income as a lawyer or a bank president I'd make good money but I'd also be on the side of the fence saying it's not right.

Capitalism is not perfect but it's far better than what socialism is. Maybe not all liberals are socialists but I've seen enough videos from DNC rallies that the majority thought is "socialism good, capitalism bad". Either the left are bigger idiots than they claim to be and don't actually know what true socialism is or they actually do know and want a true socialist government anyway.

Like it or not if it wasn't for capitalism your big-shot Berkeley grads wouldn't make the salaries they make because capitalism allows men like Matt Damon to get $20M for a movie. If he is so against capitalism he should start donating 80% of his income to charity (which I very much doubt he does).

Fateweaver wrote:
Under ideal socialist conditions that pot smoking liberals want to live under a CEO would make the same income as a garbage collector.

There is no single, ideal, socialist world. If you put three socialists in a room, and ask them to describe their utopia, you'll get three different answers. About the only necessary point of agreement would relate to the maintenance of equal opportunity, though the methods by which that might be achieved will vary a great deal. Socialism and Capitalism aren't as far apart as some people believe, in general they have similar goals and differing methodologies.

Fateweaver wrote:
That's great if you are the garbage collector but if you own a business that nets greater than $20,000 per year (or whatever a garbage collector in a large city makes) you will feel ripped off and less inclined to actually do your own thing and be your own boss as the incentive is not there.

That depends on several factors, including, but not limited to: the extent to which you believe you deserve more money than a garbage collector, the difficulty of your job, the degree to which you enjoy your job, and the social expectations surrounding work as a whole.

Fateweaver wrote:
...don't actually know what true socialism is or they actually do know and want a true socialist government anyway.

There is no such thing as 'true socialism'.

I've seen enough DNC rally videos to see that most, admittedly, pothead lefties think that capitalism should be axed and that socialism should be the NWO and that everyone should be equal as far as pay.

While I may not find it fair that Bill Gates is a billionaire 59 times over (his net worth last year) because my IQ is probably as great as his and I'm probably as educated with computers as he is does not mean that I should make as much as he does answering the phone as a tech support guy when he built M$ from the ground up and I'm just a peon who answers questions asked by idiots who can't turn the power on.

If I felt my hourly wage was too low I'd ask for a raise but I sure as hell don't believe, and I know I don't speak for everyone, that I'm worth as much as Bill Gates.

People with entitlement issues feel that way and from what I've seen most of the entitlement mongers are liberals.

Fateweaver wrote:

People with entitlement issues feel that way and from what I've seen most of the entitlement mongers are liberals.

I'd disagree with that. Most entitlement mongers are narcissists, but not necessarily all liberals. I've plenty of repugs, teabaggers, and commie pinkoes who were entitlement monkeys, including a millionaire. but i've seen the reverse as well.

Where would all the real-estate moguls be without farmers? Oh yeah... starving. Ask what is important, what NEEDS to be done factored in with how difficult it is to do, and I think you'll get a happy medium between socialism and capitalism. I got paid 10 bucks an hour to slave away in the hot sun building a house that sold for 1.3 million dollars to some guy who buys and sells stocks for his own gigantic profit margin so his spoiled kids can each have their own private bathroom when they come home from spring break before going back to 'business' school. Who was doing something constructive and who was just playing the system? I think that is an analogy to the common view of people who want a more 'socialist' system and the way they view 'capitalism'. "We work harder at crummier jobs while you rake it in and look down on us... but you still need to eat cappie, and you still need a place to live... etc... and that's why we are valuable, because we actually do the work that you feel is above you." I've met many co-workers in former shitjobs who feel like that.

Fateweaver wrote:I've seen enough DNC rally videos to see that most, admittedly, pothead lefties think that capitalism should be axed and that socialism should be the NWO and that everyone should be equal as far as pay.

Does that mean that all the Tea Party rally videos I've seen accurately describe the opinions of all small government conservatives? And that those Tea Party protesters who chanted the N-Bomb in the direction of certain black, democratic Congressmen indicate that all small government conservatives are racist?

Fateweaver wrote:
People with entitlement issues feel that way and from what I've seen most of the entitlement mongers are liberals.

Many of the arguments for a flat tax turn on the entitlement to fairness in an unfair system. Similarly, there are many argument from dessert with respect to wages which devolve into an overzealous belief in individual entitlement. Of course, that isn't always the case.

While I may not find it fair that Bill Gates is a billionaire 59 times over (his net worth last year) because my IQ is probably as great as his and I'm probably as educated with computers as he is

ShumaGorath wrote:

While I may not find it fair that Bill Gates is a billionaire 59 times over (his net worth last year) because my IQ is probably as great as his and I'm probably as educated with computers as he is

Are you trying to be funny Shuma? Because you suck at it. There are many people in this world who are far smarter than Bill Gates, Bill just knew how to use his.

Fateweaver you are taking me waaay out of contex. Try to look at it from another poit of view.

Bush pushed the bail outs. Both sides agreed it was the right thing to do at the time.

Then as the country got angeru at wall street for taking the bail out as they paied thier CEOs huge million dollar bonuses. "Remeber Where is Main streets bailout?"

The Irony is, you are now defending the same CEOs who were bailed out and trash the Main street bail out like unemployment and food stamps.

Next, nowhere did I say everybody should be paid the same amount. I said if 52% of people don't make enough to pay taxs something is wrong. Taxing to poor won't get you much money and goes against the conservative line of lower taxes. Two things must happen. either wages must go up enough for poor people to live or the cost of living must go down.

I do not think yu have a grasp of how bad things can get, Here is how the cost of living cab break down.

You need a place to stay, unless you live in the Ghetto you are spendin 600+. Own a house? 1000+

Car? 250$ a month ad 100 for full coverage insurance. Lets not talk about tag fees and upkeep. gas is about 3.00$ a gallion

Electric water and heating is about 200$ (this is very low)

phone is 50$ (no internet or cable)

food is 100$ a week for an average family

health/dental 125$ for a family

now try to spread 8$ an hour over that. you cant, so you have to take a second morgage, or get a payday love or title loan.

Then your car lease ballons, your car lease does likewise.

And you get angry because they can't afford taxs.

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ShumaGorath wrote:
While I may not find it fair that Bill Gates is a billionaire 59 times over (his net worth last year) because my IQ is probably as great as his and I'm probably as educated with computers as he is



Are you trying to be funny Shuma? Because you suck at it. There are many people in this world who are far smarter than Bill Gates, Bill just knew how to use his.
-------
(sawree still trying to figure out the whole 'quote' thing, and not really caring enough to investigate further.)

so anyhooz...




(I think he's good at it, but maybe that's because I have no value ascribed to comparative I.Q. testing, especially by modern standards.)
Sorry the facebook ap IQ test doesn't count (by that standard I have 181! bigger than Einstein! oh.. wait I read it upside-down.. oh yeah... 181...), and Bill Gates wasn't a genius, he was just smart about how he played a market. Windows still sucks and everyone knows it, but uses it anyways because everyone else does. Quit picking on Shuma.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I do like the rundown sexy_hero had on this. There's the reason why people don't like paying taxes. It is kind of circular to be charging me 2 bucks out of every 8 that I make per hour, without some kind of comeback. That's why I think social programs are necessary. I'm not proporting that the playing field should be totally leveled, but that government handouts for the poor should be no less frowned upon than government bailouts for the, shall we say, not-so-poor.