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The Dwarf Wolf wrote:Hello guys... I will keep saying WBB os feel no pain, the only diference is the time you do the second test...
I really dont understand why this around WBB/FnP, the rules are almost the same, you just give a diferent excuse for FnP...

The difference should be clear, lets go with a hyperbole example as to why FnP is worse then WBB for the most part.

20 warriors get bladestormed for 40 wounds. Lets say 32 get thru ( bad rollin ;_; ) that is either 32 4+s (so, 16 dead) or 20 Wbbs (assuming res orb/suitable nearby unit obviously) which would only yeild 10 dead, and if you use a monolith to "reroll" then you are looking at 5 lost necrons.

5 lost necrons >>>>>>>>>>> 16 lost necrons. At least, in my opinion anyway.

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:
When i was young i quit Magic: the Gathering (TCG) because of this "each edition increase power, and the new edition is the most powerfull" thing. As i am in the hobby for the last 6 months, all i have seem is are the releases of Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Eldar and now Gray Knights. Someone that is around for more time, can tell me if this "new codex is the more powerfull" thing is new?

Umm... MTG works the opposite way (at least, as far as it was when I was playing). It seems each edition gets WEAKER in time... hell, the Power 9 are all Type 1 IIRC ((or Legacy, whatever they call it these days) where as in Type 2 cards typically have similar effects to their old versions, with a few catches added in (more mana, requires a sacrifice of life/a land/ a creature, requires discarding a card, only effects specific targets etc) perfect example would be Shock vs Lightning Bolt, shock is newer, both cost 1 red, shock deals 2, LB deals 3, both instant casts, both have same limitations (one just literally deals 1 more damage because it is older). The only real execption is that newer game mechanics are harder to counter in the meta (because they are new, so have not seen alot of play-time /counter-strating) but even those can be gimmicky at best, and at the end of the day I'll take Flashback, Madness or Dark Ritual over Entwine or "Splice into the arcane"(lame).

I think Warhammer sees alot of the same things (with the some small instances of simple "stat buffs" on things like Stormshields and base cost/stats of troops), sure the necrons might get a new mechanic (or 4) that makes them unknown and intimidating (as well as makes them far more interesting then their current incarnation) but thats part of the fun, I honestly hope the new dex is slowed OP, how hilarious would it be to see all the creep players drop another grand into an army that will last them till next codex launch (around 6 months) as it is almost a punishment in itself to those that play this way (as it is EXTREMELY expensive). I wouldn't mind having to finally legitimately worry about an army without an Aquila on it (kinda like Tyranids were before their FAQ came out). If the poetic justice of fate makes that army Necrons, I'll have myself a laugh, and start rollin dice!

tl;dr Bring on the Necrons!

~DAR

SonicPara wrote:
The thing that would make the most sense that would stop a Necrons vs Blood Angels showdown would be the losses taken by the Blood Angels during the campaign against the Tyranids. Blood Angels (and all Astartes for that matter) are xenophobic crusaders but they aren't stupid. If they aren't fit to immediately engage another foe after finishing a campaign they are going to withdraw, regroup, and THEN consider attacking. I don't know if this is what Mr. Ward intended with his narrative but I think it is a logical explanation to the whole thing, at least more so then considering the Blood Angels and Necrons actual allies.

I agree. IIRC there was a situation where some marines (can't remember which ones right now) and Tau were fighting. Only to be interrupted by a tyranid splinter fleet. Once the 'nids were dealt with the tau and marines went right back at it. Burn the xenos and heretic... unless you're going to lose really really badly.

clively wrote:

SonicPara wrote:
The thing that would make the most sense that would stop a Necrons vs Blood Angels showdown would be the losses taken by the Blood Angels during the campaign against the Tyranids. Blood Angels (and all Astartes for that matter) are xenophobic crusaders but they aren't stupid. If they aren't fit to immediately engage another foe after finishing a campaign they are going to withdraw, regroup, and THEN consider attacking. I don't know if this is what Mr. Ward intended with his narrative but I think it is a logical explanation to the whole thing, at least more so then considering the Blood Angels and Necrons actual allies.

I agree. IIRC there was a situation where some marines (can't remember which ones right now) and Tau were fighting. Only to be interrupted by a tyranid splinter fleet. Once the 'nids were dealt with the tau and marines went right back at it. Burn the xenos and heretic... unless you're going to lose really really badly.

IIRC, in the particular piece of fluff about BA and Necrons, it specifically says that the two forces went their seperate ways, because NEITHER side could stomach fighting recent allies. I agree taht it would make more sense that they would stop fighting because they've both taken such substantial losses, but what Mr Ward forgets is that Necrons most likely wouldn't fight the Tyranids, as they know that Tyranids avoid them. They'd just destroy the BA when they're diverted, then take on the Tyranids, in my opinion at least. Especially since if Necrons all die and phase out, they all teleport to the nearest convenient Tomb World, so their only losses are Scarab Swarms, Tomb Spyders and Tomb Stalker, all of which are easily built.

Scarey Nerd wrote:IIRC, in the particular piece of fluff about BA and Necrons, it specifically says that the two forces went their seperate ways, because NEITHER side could stomach fighting recent allies.

Thanks for informing us all that you're just parroting things you hear online without making the effort to check if they're true.
The text is actually quite specific in saying that the Necrons decided to cut their losses short and retreated, while the Blood Angels did the same on top of not wanting to bash heads with the xenos that just helped them survive. But visibly you know exactly how that battle panned out

It's just an odd piece of fluff all round. It never says that the Necrons felt any remorse over fighting their 'allies' but i find it bizarre that the Blood Angles would? Maybe it's an 'all undead together' thing...

Marines could care less about fighting against folk that they were fighting alongside. They've been known to gun down Imperial Guard that are between them and the enemy just to get there quicker, so i doubt they'd care less about evil soul-less robots.. (must try to find that bit of fluff. Maybe from the Epic rulebook? )

Necrons want everything in the universe dead or enslaved, but would likely deliberately phase out (they don't lose anything, as it all vanishes with them, including scarabs, liths, c'tan etc) and let one side batter at the other until one was left, then wipe them if they felt the need. Since Nids would be using biomass to to good purpose fighting Necrons even if they won (no biomass to rebuild from) the Nids might well withdraw had they won, and if the marines had won they'd have been pretty easy prey.

I get the feeling that Mtr Ward doesn't really 'get' ANY of the 40k army fluff, even the marines. They are xenocidal fascist monks in armour that consider their basic weapon to be a holy tool for killing everyhing non-human, and a fair bit of human as well..

*edit for clarity*

Kroothawk wrote:And the 4th edition Codex had only one viable build for tournaments, the unfluffy Carnifex spam. And they autolost against fully mechanised armies, so practically everyone.

Mechanized lists were the norm in 4th

Tyranids lost to to mechanized lists in 4th

4th Edition



I think you are talking about 5th edition. Yes, that was hard for Tyranids who were stuck with the 4th edition codex. Prior to 5th edition, I didn't have a competive disadvatage against mechanized lists.

"...And, at least for the Blood Angels, the idea of turning on those they had so recently fought alongside, a rather distasteful one [victory]".

This quote seemed to suggest to me that it was implied that the Necrons didn't want to fight either. I've read the BA codex before, I merely misremembered. In either case, the fact remains that it's a distinctly odd move on the Necrons part at least, unless the new Codex is going to completely shift them into being much more sentient beings.

BA P16 wrote:Dante and the Silent King go their separate ways, both forces now too battleworn to guarantee victory over the other, and, at least for the Blood Angels, the idea of turning on those they had so recently fought alongside, a rather distasteful one.

I think that it shows depth in their character. Not every marine is a raving lunatic. I also think that it shows us that the Necrons will have more depth as well.

Necrons as they are portrayed in the 3rd ed codex don't really seem to 'think' that much and just are mindless killing machines, literally.

This makes it more like they have personality. I like the idea that the Necrons will be more three dimensional.

Also, from Dante's entry:

BA Codex wrote:Yet for all his success, or perhaps because of it, Dante has grown weary of his burdens. He has lived far longer than he should, and the burden of centuries grows ever weightier...

Dante is shown to be tired of the fighting and the burden of his rank and only continuing because he knows he has to be there to defend the Emperor.

Is it so out of character that he would tell his men to stand down to prevent needless bloodshed?

Not to mention he's listed as a 'Strategic Genius'. He knows when a battle is tactically unsound. Is it so out of character that he would withdraw to win another day when he had the upper hand?

Is it so out of character that one of the oldest living space marines would be honorable?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ninja'd by Scarey Nerd.

pretre wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ninja'd by Scarey Nerd.

Scriptures of the Scarey Nerd wrote:And he is terrifying, and he shall strike swift and true, and post on forums just in time to infuriate others.

Okay, not the best scriptures in the world...

Back on topic: Now GK are out, want Necrons!!!

pretre wrote:

BA P16 wrote:Dante and the Silent King go their separate ways, both forces now too battleworn to guarantee victory over the other, and, at least for the Blood Angels, the idea of turning on those they had so recently fought alongside, a rather distasteful one.

I think that it shows depth in their character. Not every marine is a raving lunatic. I also think that it shows us that the Necrons will have more depth as well.

Necrons as they are portrayed in the 3rd ed codex don't really seem to 'think' that much and just are mindless killing machines, literally.

This makes it more like they have personality. I like the idea that the Necrons will be more three dimensional.

Let me try to point out why, personal feelings aside (I detest the idea of individualized Necrons or Necron Lords), this wouldn't make sense from a current lore perspective. Of course, nothing is sacred when it comes to retcon, but from a current standpoint Necrons shouldn't have any identifiable traits to any of them.

Necrons were, as everyone knows, originally the Necrontyr race of semi-human like beings. Stuff happened and many many years later they found themselves transferred into the bodies that we all know and wish would get updated today, the Necrons. The first among the Necrontyr to become the Necrons were made into the Immortals, as can be found in the side entry for the same unit in the Necron codex. On page 25 near the bottom right, however, we make an interesting discovery concerning the intelligence of the first, and latter Necrons. It reads "Only a few of the very strongest retained their intellect and even then they were shadows of their former selves."

From the above passage we can gather that only a minimal percentage of the Necrons have any sort of intelligence left, and that those few were made into the Necron Lords. However, is a fit of self contradiction, it is hinted, in a location I cannot currently find, that the Flayed Ones originally had some semblance of intelligence and have since been driven insane, whilst the Wraiths among the Necron army were the murderers and thieves of the Necrontyr race.

Read these how you will, but I think it would be a large stretch to try and say that any current Necrons have any personality left, with the whole losing what remained every time they phased out.


I've also just re-read what you've said, and all I'm doing is affirming just that. This post is redundant but I'll leave it in case it's new info to anyone who doesn't know all that.

I am completely making this up, but what if... Instead of a ret-con, they actually progress Necrons.

Maybe one of the C'Tan is able to wake more of them up (by them I mean of their mind). Able to restore some of the Lords to more of their original faculties. Or any number of other outlandish things. Afterall, not long ago, the necrons were completely sleeping. Isn't such a leap to have them shake off their slumber, have a cup of robo-coffee and be a bit more alert.

Crazy talk, and unlikely, but still...

pretre wrote:I am completely making this up, but what if... Instead of a ret-con, they actually progress Necrons.

Maybe one of the C'Tan is able to wake more of them up (by them I mean of their mind). Able to restore some of the Lords to more of their original faculties. Or any number of other outlandish things. Afterall, not long ago, the necrons were completely sleeping. Isn't such a leap to have them shake off their slumber, have a cup of robo-coffee and be a bit more alert.

Crazy talk, and unlikely, but still...

Honestly that would rock. What could never happen, but what I'd love to see, is the re-emergence of the Void Dragon. He leaves Mars and takes whatever current Guardian is watching him at the time and vacates to a distant world. Given his level of technological knowledge they could say he phased to a Tomb World in the outer belts of the galaxy and from there continues to wake up new Necron worlds. It'd be progression, but not so much that it completely rocks the story-line boat. And they could say he's made modifications to several Necrons there as justification for new units.

Didn't a necron fleet almost get to Mars to give him a ride home?

pretre wrote:Didn't a necron fleet almost get to Mars to give him a ride home?

5 Shroud Class Necron fighters, 2/3 landed on Mars' surface before being destroyed.

Mechanicum spoiler re: Void Dragon

pretre wrote:Mechanicum spoiler re: Void Dragon

Spoiler:

Mechanicum says that no one else enters the Dragon's cave until the 41st millenium. Was Graham tipping us off?

I pray that would be the case.

Azure wrote:

pretre wrote:I am completely making this up, but what if... Instead of a ret-con, they actually progress Necrons.

Maybe one of the C'Tan is able to wake more of them up (by them I mean of their mind). Able to restore some of the Lords to more of their original faculties. Or any number of other outlandish things. Afterall, not long ago, the necrons were completely sleeping. Isn't such a leap to have them shake off their slumber, have a cup of robo-coffee and be a bit more alert.

Crazy talk, and unlikely, but still...

Honestly that would rock. What could never happen, but what I'd love to see, is the re-emergence of the Void Dragon. He leaves Mars and takes whatever current Guardian is watching him at the time and vacates to a distant world. Given his level of technological knowledge they could say he phased to a Tomb World in the outer belts of the galaxy and from there continues to wake up new Necron worlds. It'd be progression, but not so much that it completely rocks the story-line boat. And they could say he's made modifications to several Necrons there as justification for new units.

That would be an awesome progression and an excellent way to start off a huge Necron based campaign, the only army that I have seen do a real progression was the Tau going from Codex: Tau to Codex: Tau Empire. I think they need to do this more often with Zeno forces, show some actual change in what is happening rather than the usual "Yeah were the same, we just decided to build a few extra tanks and change how we field some classic units"

Nagashek wrote:It actually surprises me how few people like the lack of individuality amoungst Necrons. Honestly that was a SELLING point for me! An unstoppable metal tide, whose very visage means death in any language? Yes, thank you. Their warriors do not utter battle cries to unspeakable gods. Only silence preceeds them, only silence their wake.

Only immortals and above having any semblance of personality, and that so alien, so far removed from any humanoid being, that they are utterly incomprehensable.

Their motivations are their own. Their language: their own. Yours is not to understand them. Yours is only to die to fuel their inhumane thirst.

Resistance is futile.

~~~~~

Why in the bloody blue blazes do you need ANYTHING besides THAT? My lords had personality, but my OPPONANT never got to see it. It was given to my enemies only to die. To weep and keen over the bodies of the slain.

Matt Ward. I spit on his grave. Ever since the Demons book for WHFB I have hated the man. He has yet to redeem himself.

Thats why I got into Necrons in 2004. LOVED that silent thing they had going. One minute the Marines are just looking around, next minute a silvery metal tide washes over them, they didn't even hear em coming.

Not every army need battle cries and personality. Keep the Necrons the way they are, just give us more to field and make guass threating again.

Mark1130 wrote: just give us more to field and make guass threating again.

agree on both counts, maybe instead of Gauss auto glancing it could auto pen?

*gloats*

Not likely though. just make it count as AP 1 and i'd be good

Ascalam wrote:*gloats*

Not likely though. just make it count as AP 1 and i'd be good

Not likely either. AP1 = masses of dead marines and we can't have dead marines, now can we?

I feel like that could mess with infantry if it made the 6's AP 1, my solution was to just always count vehicles as open topped. Let's you do abit more damage then you could normally expect from a glancing hit, and can even destroy stuff, but won't do a whole lot of extra junk against infantry units. In short; keep the same rule just make it count glancing as minus 1 only.

Given that a unit of 20 necrons would get a max of 6-7 in rapid fire range, i don't think it's be too severe. As it is now gauss vs infantry only applies if the target is T 7 or more, which is practically nothing in the game.

Dreadknight
Cronos/Talos
C'tan
Wraithlord

any others?

for anyone else they're just overpriced bolters..

Azure wrote:I feel like that could mess with infantry if it made the 6's AP 1, my solution was to just always count vehicles as open topped. Let's you do abit more damage then you could normally expect from a glancing hit, and can even destroy stuff, but won't do a whole lot of extra junk against infantry units. In short; keep the same rule just make it count glancing as minus 1 only.

I have to agree. Giving Guass a -1 glancing, would almost make em as dangerous as 4th ed. That -2 is what turns Guass into super soakers. Right now I have to rapid fire a 12 man warrior squad and fire 5 man Destroyer squad on 1 tank just to strip it of weapons to get the kill. Thats just plain not fair. What else do I use to kill armor? Monilith? This misses more times than not, or field Heavy destoryers? That also fails more times than not.

Come on new codex!!! I want my army back!!! ck.

Mark1130 wrote:

Come on new codex!!! I want my army back!!! ck.

Amen to that!
And it would be awesome for some fluff progression, but I'd also like a yacht...

Would that be: "Gauss Weapons auto-glance on a 6 and count vehicles as open-topped"? Would they get anything against infantry or leave it at that, so that only Marine vehicles die, not the mahreens themselves?

Tmonster wrote: Wait good point, alessio left so who does check for game balance?

Matt Ward?

I think from the background we can only conclude one thing.

Dante is a traitor and the Blood Angels are Heretics. Only Exterminatus can save the Imperium from being undermined by their alliance with the C'tan.

And to think people complain about GW never advancing the timeline.

I'm not sure what woudl be better, the gauss solution offered above, or just make all Gauss weaposn have the Rending USR.

Never mind the shooting, main issue was CC. Let's give flayed ones rending claws in CC and wraiths count as power weapons ... at the very least! Also, grenade equivalents are needed.

Tomb spyder was cool - but WS2/BS2?

Also, to fit in with certain HQ choices then certain elite/FA choices should be taken as troops? This fits with all other recent codexes and makes Necrons interesting. Imagine if by giving a lord a skimmer body you could take destroyers as troops!