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Unsanctioned bits or not, he had exactly zero right to engage in property damage. Given how much time and effort I put into my figures (it measures in the decades), I would probably try to yank his head off. I'm a full grown adult. I might just manage it. Bear in mind that we all expect the odd accident from mishandling, and an accidentally removed part is just evidence we need to pin things better most of the time. But deliberate and calculated damage on a whole army over something as minor as this? No.

But this story does give some indication of exactly how such a policy can make an enjoyable pastime into a ridiculous pain in the ass. Consider if this had been done to some new kid who quite innocently assumed that all figures are just figures? That kid comes home from his game in tears with a pile of parts, he's not likely to go back. That's one less customer, one less spender, one very embarrassed company. What is likely to happen is a VERY angry parent will show up, and can only really go downhill after that.

nkelsch wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:
He wa asked to leave, and then the police were called. He had also done some damage to other people's armies for similar 'reasons'.

Assault is still assault... and vandalism doesn't make it not assault or 'justified' assault. If the guy wanted to press charges he could have and if he wanted to sue you civilly he could have... he may not have gotten far but he still could have. And defending your property doesn't give you license to go on the offense. I seriously doubt when you returned that you needed to do little more than stand between him and your models to get him to stop removing parts. And if he was 'done' there was nothing left to defend so any physical action you took was retaliatory and criminal and no longer in defense of your property. You could have called the police and taken civil action but instead you supposedly broke his teeth...

...If this story actually happened. Personally, I declare official shenanigans on all wargamers who supposedly resort to physical violence over wargaming or claim they would when they don't get their way. It doesn't actually happen at the frequently people on these boards claim and never to the extent like how people claim to 'have broken his hand' and 'caused him a dental bill'.

I am sure you have pictures of this entire army with pieces broken off right? Since you would have wanted it for your insurance claim and for the police report and to protect yourself from a civil suit so you could show the extend of the damages you were trying to prevent. I know you have this because no one would claim such an absurd lie without basic evidence which is so easy to prove even if it was many many many years ago...

What insurance claim? I'll tell you a funny story: I tried to get a mini insured once. Guess how much it's worth? MRSP.

As far as the rest of it goes? I'd love to have seen him try. This is, by the way, NOT the United States. Something a lot of you seem confused by due to the little flag, which is due, I found out, to my ISP sending the packets to Buffalo, NY. Here you have no miranda rights, and the police can beat your ass if they don't like you, and it's legal. US police are only allowed in by invitation from the local police. I didn't take any pictures. I seem to remember the Marshels did for their report, but as to where my copy is, I might be able to dig around and see if I could find it.

ArbeitsSchu wrote:Unsanctioned bits or not, he had exactly zero right to engage in property damage. Given how much time and effort I put into my figures (it measures in the decades), I would probably try to yank his head off. I'm a full grown adult. I might just manage it. Bear in mind that we all expect the odd accident from mishandling, and an accidentally removed part is just evidence we need to pin things better most of the time. But deliberate and calculated damage on a whole army over something as minor as this? No.

But this story does give some indication of exactly how such a policy can make an enjoyable pastime into a ridiculous pain in the ass. Consider if this had been done to some new kid who quite innocently assumed that all figures are just figures? That kid comes home from his game in tears with a pile of parts, he's not likely to go back. That's one less customer, one less spender, one very embarrassed company. What is likely to happen is a VERY angry parent will show up, and can only really go downhill after that.

But it doesn't justify the assault... Or the bombastic claims of people on the interweb to claim 'I would have beaten him up!'

If a FLGS was running a GW event with GW prize support, it is very reasonable that GW expects the event to promote and push GW models. The idea of a GW event is fine, the idea of having an expensive prize support for players who have GW models is fine, Having people disqualified who are not showing up with a GW army in good faith is also fine. So the idea that some 'policy' is at fault is not the case... In this story it is the fact (LOL fact) that someone broke models intentionally... not that the event required 75% and the models being broken didn't fit the standard.

Actually this story proves why the 100% standard is correct... The first thing done was try to rationalize why his models with 3rd party parts should still be legal when trying to win a large GW provided prize... Arguing percentage means you have entitled people who can't follow rules and don't realize the whole point of the event is to sell GW models and only GW models. 100% requirement gives total discretion to the organizer to say 'sorry, your models don't fit, get out!' I think if you want a shot at a multi-hundred dollar forgeworld model, showing up with GW only models is a small price to pay and a reasonable expectation. It may have been handled better by the organizer but the premise of the event wa not flawed.

You don't have to agree with them, but you never have the right to resort to physical assault especially to the point of causing deliberate dental damage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BaronIveagh wrote:



What insurance claim? I'll tell you a funny story: I tried to get a mini insured once. Guess how much it's worth? MRSP.

I just add them to my personal property insurance on my home insurance... I have a rider for collectibles which works fine and covers my minis in result of damage or theft... Of course I probably wouldn't file a claim for something small, but if I had my whole army stolen or my house burned down, it is nice to know I can get them replaced... MSRP is pretty damn good if you are having hundreds or thousands of dollars of broken/stolen minis. Sure you have to repaint, but that may be preferable to reassembling and fixing paintjobs.

As far as the rest of it goes? I'd love to have seen him try. This is, by the way, NOT the United States. Something a lot of you seem confused by due to the little flag, which is due, I found out, to my ISP sending the packets to Buffalo, NY. Here you have no miranda rights, and the police can beat your ass if they don't like you, and it's legal. US police are only allowed in by invitation from the local police. I didn't take any pictures. I seem to remember the Marshels did for their report, but as to where my copy is, I might be able to dig around and see if I could find it.

Just because you live 'somewhere' outside the US where it is supposedly legal doesn't make it right. Still makes you a tool for causing physical harm to another person over wargaming minis... even in your story where you are getting no justice and no financial compensation you still are not justified in attacking the man.

nkelsch wrote:

But it doesn't justify the assault... Or the bombastic claims of people on the interweb to claim 'I would have beaten him up!'

If a FLGS was running a GW event with GW prize support, it is very reasonable that GW expects the event to promote and push GW models. The idea of a GW event is fine, the idea of having an expensive prize support for players who have GW models is fine, Having people disqualified who are not showing up with a GW army in good faith is also fine. So the idea that some 'policy' is at fault is not the case... In this story it is the fact (LOL fact) that someone broke models intentionally... not that the event required 75% and the models being broken didn't fit the standard.

Actually this story proves why the 100% standard is correct... The first thing done was try to rationalize why his models with 3rd party parts should still be legal when trying to win a large GW provided prize... Arguing percentage means you have entitled people who can't follow rules and don't realize the whole point of the event is to sell GW models and only GW models. 100% requirement gives total discretion to the organizer to say 'sorry, your models don't fit, get out!' I think if you want a shot at a multi-hundred dollar forgeworld model, showing up with GW only models is a small price to pay and a reasonable expectation. It may have been handled better by the organizer but the premise of the event wa not flawed.

You don't have to agree with them, but you never have the right to resort to physical assault especially to the point of causing deliberate dental damage.

GW did not provide the prize. The FLGS did. I was never really clear why this guy had been brought in. The organizer was the FLGS.

My 'rationalization' was, at the time I paid money into the pot that was used to buy the prize, the rule was 75%. Which my minis exceeded, and had already been approved in advance by the organizer. The organzier agreed with this assesment, and when we returned to inform the individual of this, we got the aforementioned scene.

Homeowners doesn't do that here, however, flood and fire will cover it.

'A tool' I like that! That's funny. I see good, reasonable, people slaughtering each other every day on the news over ideology, religion, and money. And yet, for standing up for myself, I'm a tool. Yeeesh, sheeple.

BaronIveagh wrote:GW did not provide the prize. The FLGS did. I was never really clear why this guy had been brought in. The organizer was the FLGS.

My 'rationalization' was, at the time I paid money into the pot that was used to buy the prize, the rule was 75%. Which my minis exceeded, and had already been approved in advance by the organizer.

Does your paying into the also 'rationalize' attacking someone too? You let the FLGS running the event handle 'the vandalism of customers property' instead of resorting to a more vicious criminal act in reaction to a criminal act... Makes you a terrible human being.


If this guy was a GW employee, the way real companies work is the FLGS would have given you guys 'something' for the harm done to the customers in their store. The Store owner than would have reported it to GW and threaten to take civil action against GW as the person was acting on behalf of the company. They could sue for way more than the damage done due to the customer relation damage. GW would then fire the employee and settle with the FLGS.

That is what actually happens in the real world when criminal activities happen to the extent you claim.

That is, again, a puzzling thing.

How many people were playing and what was the entry fee?
Was it anywhere near enough to justify a Warhound Titan as a prize?

Why would they have a GW overseer?

I have seen this on several occasions in my regions when a GW Employee goes to a indie store because they were requested by the indie store to help run a tournament.

This generally happens when the Indie store is new to the 40k/WHFB games.

BaronIveagh wrote:He wa asked to leave, and then the police were called. He had also done some damage to other people's armies for similar 'reasons'.

Don't pay attention to the hippies who congregate on 40k sites. According to the majority of them, if your sister is getting raped, and you punch the guy raping your sister, you are wrong for doing so because you provoked him, or didn't read a bible first to the guy, or something like that.

I stopped going to GW stores back in 2002 when I was told I was not allowed to bring my Tyranid Armorcast models into the store since they were no longer GW models. Really? When I paid for them years earlier, they sure as hell were...

I have since not entered a GW store once, and I ALWAYS veer new hobyists away from GW stores/online store, and either to a LFGS or eBay. I am glad to have removed thousands and thousands of dollars over the years from GW because of their insult to me. I will continue to do so happily. As long as I get treated like a customer, and not a hobbyists, I will treat GW in kind.

BuFFo wrote:

Don't pay attention to the hippies who congregate on 40k sites. According to the majority of them, if your sister is getting raped, and you punch the guy raping your sister, you are wrong for doing so because you provoked him, or didn't read a bible first to the guy, or something like that.
.

Did you really try to trivialize the horrific act of rape by comparing it to fighting over broken toys?

And bring religion into it too!

nkelsch wrote:

BuFFo wrote:

Don't pay attention to the hippies who congregate on 40k sites. According to the majority of them, if your sister is getting raped, and you punch the guy raping your sister, you are wrong for doing so because you provoked him, or didn't read a bible first to the guy, or something like that.
.

Did you really try to trivialize the horrific act of rape by comparing it to fighting over broken toys?

And bring religion into it too!

At least I stayed on topic!

nkelsch wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:GW did not provide the prize. The FLGS did. I was never really clear why this guy had been brought in. The organizer was the FLGS.

My 'rationalization' was, at the time I paid money into the pot that was used to buy the prize, the rule was 75%. Which my minis exceeded, and had already been approved in advance by the organizer.

Does your paying into the also 'rationalize' attacking someone too? You let the FLGS running the event handle 'the vandalism of customers property' instead of resorting to a more vicious criminal act in reaction to a criminal act... Makes you a terrible human being.


If this guy was a GW employee, the way real companies work is the FLGS would have given you guys 'something' for the harm done to the customers in their store. The Store owner than would have reported it to GW and threaten to take civil action against GW as the person was acting on behalf of the company. They could sue for way more than the damage done due to the customer relation damage. GW would then fire the employee and settle with the FLGS.

That is what actually happens in the real world when criminal activities happen to the extent you claim.

First and foremost. GW gives less then a gak about what goes on here, because they can't be sued here (since here they are not liable for their employee's actions, as under the law, the only person liable for your actions is you). As far as getting something, the FLGS gave the people involved a mini of their choice, on the house. No idea what went on beyond that.

I've seen more then one wargamer respond very badly to 'deliberate mini damage'.

Kanluwen wrote:That is, again, a puzzling thing.

How many people were playing and what was the entry fee?
Was it anywhere near enough to justify a Warhound Titan as a prize?

Why would they have a GW overseer?

I forget. Fee was $45 each.

Not sure. I seem to recall that they (the FLGS) were, at the time, trying to get into the global campaign that year, thinking to get a bigger draw, so it might have had to do with that.

Hrmh. When was this?

There was a big management hubbub after the 13th Black Crusade dealing with FLGS support.

Kanluwen wrote:Hrmh. When was this?

There was a big management hubbub after the 13th Black Crusade dealing with FLGS support.

it was more recent then that. Spring 2007 IIRC, because I remember getting a new position right after that with the casino.

Might have been 06 though, because I remember that we were talking about Medusa V.

Am at a loss then. The guy might just have been a jerk.

That's my theory. I still hold that he got what he deserved.


@Adam: btw, I just realized what your icon was. that's pretty cool, do they actually sell those?

He could have gotten more if you hadn't punched him over toy soldiers.

Kanluwen wrote:He could have gotten more if you hadn't punched him over toy soldiers.

Not really. You can't claim financial compensation here, beyond the purchase price of the items, and odds are he'd have skipped out, since I doubt hsi bank account was in this jurisdiction that it could be seized.

You're focusing too much on "financial compensation".

You could have gotten him fired and blackballed. As it is, you essentially martyred him as "that guy who got punched by a gamer for enforcing a rule".

'And then got deported by the police.'

'And then got sent to Mexico, despite his insistence that he was British'.

Fitting enough punishment?

LOL No, we deported him to the United States. Some might say it was too harsh.

This topic seems to have been fully explored.

We'll bring you a re-run in a couple of weeks.