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Kanluwen wrote:The "100%" only counts towards the model itself.

Replacing any part of the model's structure puts that percentage down. Adding anything on is simply that: an addition.

'Jellyfish are 97% water. Give it 3% water, its water'

Toastedandy wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The "100%" only counts towards the model itself.

Replacing any part of the model's structure puts that percentage down. Adding anything on is simply that: an addition.

'Jellyfish are 97% water. Give it 3% water, its water'

Yeah...no.

We'll use a Space Marine model for this example.

Let's say we take a Space Marine Captain. We use the parts off the sprue to assemble the body, but leave off the shoulderpads to replace them with some third party's shoulderpads for "Star Knights".

The shoulderpads are an 'essential part of the kit', with the model not recognizably being complete without the bulky shoulderpads.

Now, let's say we assemble that same Space Marine Captain and leave on the standard shoulderpads. We then sculpt him a robe or a tabard.

Did we leave off any part of the model? No? Then it's "100% GW". The only thing not GW is from you 'going the extra mile' to make the model recognizably yours.

Hobby supplies are usually not counted towards any of the %%. LED lights are hobby supplies the same way plasticard turned into bolt-on plates on an ork looted wagon are.

People are purposely being obtuse in the name of justifying manufactured unreasonable outrage.

This rule (that has been heard second hand and doesn't have a piece of paper yet for us to parse like some RAW rulebook) is a way for a manager to control his store and expel someone who is using products that don't promote GWs stores models and sales.

When you give a percentage, how are we to figure it out? Take the mass of the model and have 75% GW? Take the surface area? Body proportions? How much is a head worth? how much is a base worth? how much is a weapon worth?

Really simple, 100% which means if a GW employee sees your army has any of these 3rd party parts and is causing an issue or promoting other companies products, your models are not welcome. An LED is not going to cause concern and therefor they simply don't bother with it.

And this is not civil rights, it is not like you can say 'Seee? his model has an LED headlight! zero tolerance freedom for the oppressed.' They can pretty much throw you out for any reason and allow other people to stay for any reason.

If you don't like it and game only with models with 3rd party competing parts or stand-in models, then game elsewhere. I suspect a majority of the people with outrage don't actually and never did game at GW stores so there really isn't an issue.

I feel like I am watching Mr Slate try to fire Fred Flintstone and he is responding with , "You can't fire me! I quit!!!" When I see people who don't game at GW or even play GW games really complain about store policies...

Toastedandy wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The "100%" only counts towards the model itself.

Replacing any part of the model's structure puts that percentage down. Adding anything on is simply that: an addition.

'Jellyfish are 97% water. Give it 3% water, its water'

nope, it's now 100 out of 103 parts water, and 3 parts out of 103 notwater.

And neither my comment nor yours adds anything to the conversation.

Let's say we take a Space Marine Captain. We use the parts off the sprue to assemble the body, but leave off the shoulderpads to replace them with some third party's shoulderpads for "Star Knights".
The shoulderpads are an 'essential part of the kit', with the model not recognizably being complete without the bulky shoulderpads.
Now, let's say we assemble that same Space Marine Captain and leave on the standard shoulderpads. We then sculpt him a robe or a tabard.
Did we leave off any part of the model? No? Then it's "100% GW". The only thing not GW is from you 'going the extra mile' to make the model recognizably yours.

here's a better example with pics so that people understand your point.

this is 100% GW, but is not recognizable as such because it's been kitbashed from different models, it's a high elf archmage body and staff, a dark eldar needler and arm, a fire dragon head, and a spirit stone from a high elf sword placed on the head.


this on the other is not 100% GW even though the majority of the model looks as if it is, this is using the lower half of a warlock, the upper half of a guardian, a dark eldar hairpiece, Jain Zar's left weapon arm, two shuriken pistols, a GS sash, and plasticard for the wings replacing the upright bits on the guardian backpack. even though the wings are plasticard and GW wouldn't have a problem with this model on the table by replacing the guardian bits with the wings it is not 100%, it would be the same if used Max-mini's dragonfly wings on the model. it would be using third party parts replacing GW parts, it calls attention to itself and by rights they can ask me to either not use it or take my game play elsewhere.

However, this is dragging on and on and is getting ridiculous, so far it has been nothing more than a few store managers who are either anal retentive or have problem players who are being disruptive in some way, but we're not hearing about the disruptive parts of it. After all, who's going to come in to a forum dedicated to warhammer 40K and complain that they were asked to leave a store the other day because they were being a complete ass. it's GW's stores, they pay the rent, the electric bill, the water bill, and the insurance bill, and they can do as they wish. same thing goes for GW tourneys, it's their tourney, so it's their rules. they are not strong-arming you to pay at the door and enter their tourney, you choose to do so, and by that choice you choose to adhere to their rules. if you don't want to adhere to their rules then you are free to play elsewhere or not enter the tourney. if a manager had a problem with your army, then don't use that army in that store, use your other army instead, the one that doesn't have aftermarket stuff on it. it's as simple as that.

Kanluwen wrote:

ArbeitsSchu wrote:
He is right. There is a difference. After all, people use all manner of things on models without issue. Its mostly just these specific after-market kits from direct competition that are the sore point. Not that Eduard doing etched brass parts for Tamiya kits ever caused Tamiya any problems. GW really needs to get wise about the concept.

This is where things get fun.

In the case of Eduard doing photo-etched brass parts for Tamiya kits--Tamiya can't really do anything to stop them. The products they're making, in most cases, they do not own the likenesses to the object they're representing. Historical miniatures are kind of a 'gray area' in that regard as it's something real and tangible and there's no real "IP" involved outside of the company who originally produced it, which in many cases during WWII there was no one 'company' producing the item in question.

There was a fascinating article a few years back in a Fine Scale Modeler about how automotive companies are starting to crack down and requiring licensing from companies doing model kits of their cars. Dodge/Chrysler started it by trying to have a Willy's Jeep kit pulled for not accurately representing the original vehicle.

True. However, Tamiya are hardly losing bucketloads of cash from their sales because people still buy the kit to start with. It also pushes Tamiya to make better kits, more accurately. If GW really want people to stop using third party bits, they should take a long hard look at the gaping wounds in their product ranges. However, they would be much better served by simply licensing out. People still buy their toys, then spend more money on the extra bits. Everybody still makes money.

Though no doubt Tamiya and others would crap themselves with joy if someone ruled they could trademark Tiger Tanks or whatever. I wouldn't mind reading that article either, but not having a comprehensive collection of FSM, I don't have it.

ArbeitsSchu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

ArbeitsSchu wrote:
He is right. There is a difference. After all, people use all manner of things on models without issue. Its mostly just these specific after-market kits from direct competition that are the sore point. Not that Eduard doing etched brass parts for Tamiya kits ever caused Tamiya any problems. GW really needs to get wise about the concept.

This is where things get fun.

In the case of Eduard doing photo-etched brass parts for Tamiya kits--Tamiya can't really do anything to stop them. The products they're making, in most cases, they do not own the likenesses to the object they're representing. Historical miniatures are kind of a 'gray area' in that regard as it's something real and tangible and there's no real "IP" involved outside of the company who originally produced it, which in many cases during WWII there was no one 'company' producing the item in question.

There was a fascinating article a few years back in a Fine Scale Modeler about how automotive companies are starting to crack down and requiring licensing from companies doing model kits of their cars. Dodge/Chrysler started it by trying to have a Willy's Jeep kit pulled for not accurately representing the original vehicle.

True. However, Tamiya are hardly losing bucketloads of cash from their sales because people still buy the kit to start with. It also pushes Tamiya to make better kits, more accurately. If GW really want people to stop using third party bits, they should take a long hard look at the gaping wounds in their product ranges. However, they would be much better served by simply licensing out. People still buy their toys, then spend more money on the extra bits. Everybody still makes money.

The big thing about the "gaping wounds in their product ranges" is that in some cases it was done before they started doing the 'wave' system.

Though no doubt Tamiya and others would crap themselves with joy if someone ruled they could trademark Tiger Tanks or whatever. I wouldn't mind reading that article either, but not having a comprehensive collection of FSM, I don't have it.

I'll try to dig it up in my collection.

You want me to play GW thunderwolf cav, THEN MAKE THE DAMN MODEL!!! Don't like the batwing being used as a DE vehicle, THEN MAKE THE DAMN MODEL!!!
This is a great benefit for independant stores, and another chance for GW to kick themselves in the teeth. Why give someone a reason to pass your shop by for another?

AngryMarine wrote: You want me to play GW thunderwolf cav, THEN MAKE THE DAMN MODEL!!!

Canis Wolfborn says "sup".

Thunderwolf Cavalry technically have a model you can work from to do conversions.

"It's expensive!" doesn't mean that the option isn't there though.

Everyone on this site understands that GW has the right to exclude any non-GW models or conversion from their stores. However, we as consumers have the option to shop elsewhere, they are plenty of online sites to shop GW products, as well as plenty of gaming stores thoughout the area (Illinois) to go gaming. Most competitive players have their own tables and would never to go to GW to playtest or purchase their items.
Allow GW to be GW, perhaps someday in the near future they will understand that we are not as naive as they would want us to be! I think this is a great opportunity for gaming communities to band together and develop a stronger voice in our hobby!
Remember, without us their is no hobby, without us there is no demand, without us there is no GW! Remember that my friends!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:

AngryMarine wrote: You want me to play GW thunderwolf cav, THEN MAKE THE DAMN MODEL!!!

Canis Wolfborn says "sup".

Thunderwolf Cavalry technically have a model you can work from to do conversions.

"It's expensive!" doesn't mean that the option isn't there though.

Sure, I agree! But not everyone has $350.00 to spend on the models if your building the standard 5 TWC & 2 WL on thunderwolves! This is just for the models without tax, now we begin to add the greenstuff, other conversion parts, and time & labor, we are looking at somewhere around $550 dollars! WOW! That is a lot of money, regardless if you have the coin for it or not. However, as I stated earlier we as consumers have the choice, we don't have to play at GW, and we can go to MR. Dandy.com and purchase their beautiful TWC ready for action. Once again, it is US the gamers who should dictate what we want and when we want it. Don't endorse their products at their stores, it's up to us.
If GW were to stop shipping their products to other stores, then we should boycott their 40k products, people we have the power. No company can afford to go bankrupt in these times! I believe we are not asking the impossible from GW!

ArbeitsSchu wrote:True. However, Tamiya are hardly losing bucketloads of cash from their sales because people still buy the kit to start with. It also pushes Tamiya to make better kits, more accurately. If GW really want people to stop using third party bits, they should take a long hard look at the gaping wounds in their product ranges. However, they would be much better served by simply licensing out. People still buy their toys, then spend more money on the extra bits. Everybody still makes money.

Though no doubt Tamiya and others would crap themselves with joy if someone ruled they could trademark Tiger Tanks or whatever. I wouldn't mind reading that article either, but not having a comprehensive collection of FSM, I don't have it.

Last time I checked, Tamiya didn't run a retail store... and the last time I checked, GW wasn't saying you can't convert their models with 3rd party bitz, just don't bring them to GW stores and events.

Also, consumers are selfish and stupid and don't understand the financial expense and business model. GW technically can compete with itself by releasing too many models at once. They want everything right now!!! GIMMIE GIMMIE GIMMIE!

Many other product lines do this and release things in 'waves' where they eventually produce the models/figures/whatever when they can as the market supports it. The only thing is, they shouldn't have to worry about other companies harming their business by directly competing against them with their own IP. Hasbro should be able to reasonably expect another toy manufacturer won't go an make an optimus prime figure just because hasbro doesn't release one in wave 1 of a merchandise rollout... but yet GW has to make every model/unit/warger/everything wave 1 all at once or expect to have it made elsewhere? This is the weak justification that drives the illegal knock-off market with toys. "if the company made them, I wouldn't be forced to buy knock offs." and the funny thing is, when the company does make the product with their own IP eventually people then claim, "Oh, it is too much the knock-off is cheaper... I am still justified."

If you want to use 3rd-party models, then you are not welcome at GW stores, nor should you be... If you think you can run a business better with different policies, go ahead and start one and run it better. You don't have the right to demand GW run it business in a different way to meet your personal whims, especially when the actions may be self-destructive to please an unreasonable consumer.

Kanluwen wrote:

AngryMarine wrote: You want me to play GW thunderwolf cav, THEN MAKE THE DAMN MODEL!!!

Canis Wolfborn says "sup".

Thunderwolf Cavalry technically have a model you can work from to do conversions.

"It's expensive!" doesn't mean that the option isn't there though.

Doesnt work. Its not a thunderwolf model. Its a Canis wolfborn model. The legs, body and head are all one pice(especially with the longer hair). Only the arms are sperate. Its too difficult of a model to convert for various purposes. I've passed on using parts from it due to that reason.

Expense has nothing to do with it. Usability is the reason, and its not very usable.

carmachu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

AngryMarine wrote: You want me to play GW thunderwolf cav, THEN MAKE THE DAMN MODEL!!!

Canis Wolfborn says "sup".

Thunderwolf Cavalry technically have a model you can work from to do conversions.

"It's expensive!" doesn't mean that the option isn't there though.

Doesnt work. Its not a thunderwolf model. Its a Canis wolfborn model. The legs, body and head are all one pice(especially with the longer hair). Only the arms are sperate. Its too difficult of a model to convert for various purposes. I've passed on using parts from it due to that reason.

Expense has nothing to do with it. Usability is the reason, and its not very usable.

See, now that? That changes everything. I've been under the impression that the head was like how Sammael is and is a separate head.

imalave wrote:Everyone on this site understands that GW has the right to exclude any non-GW models or conversion from their stores. However, we as consumers have the option to shop elsewhere, they are plenty of online sites to shop GW products, as well as plenty of gaming stores thoughout the area (Illinois) to go gaming. Most competitive players have their own tables and would never to go to GW to playtest or purchase their items.

Ding Ding.

This is my battlewagon from Adepticon. Note the wheels. They came off a $4 toy crane-digger-thing from Toyz-R-Uz. (The one where orks shop, apparently). The front fenders came from a fish-food container.



Any GW employee who tries to tell me that I can't use this because it uses toy wheels will be informed that it also uses parts from at least seven different GW kits (see if you can spot them in the picture, they're all visible) and that they can either let me use it or lose any future sales that I will make. Then I'll ask them to look up my sales total in their computer (they can do this), and they'll back off.

Any of these policies are not an issue for people who spend money in a store. They're issues for people who do not spend money in the establishment and expect to use the establishment's resources for free. Good customers will never be kicked out of a store, or told not to use their models, regardless of whether the wheelz came from toyz-r-uz.

Kanluwen wrote:

AngryMarine wrote: You want me to play GW thunderwolf cav, THEN MAKE THE DAMN MODEL!!!

Canis Wolfborn says "sup".

Thunderwolf Cavalry technically have a model you can work from to do conversions.

"It's expensive!" doesn't mean that the option isn't there though.

Technically, having published a codex, GW don't need to produce any models at all. The option is there to green stuff it. The design to work to is in the book.

nkelsch wrote:You don't have the right to demand GW run it business in a different way to meet your personal whims, especially when the actions may be self-destructive to please an unreasonable consumer.

Yea, you do have the right to make that demand. If GW (or any company) feels that it is not in its best interest to listen to the demands/concerns/advice/suggestions/requests of any given customer, it has that prerogative. Your opinion that it wouldn't be a good idea to give in to those demands (and you're probably right about that), shouldn't extend into a blanket denial of an individual's right to communicate with a company, especially that company is or will be receiving that individual's business.

The point of this thread is that it is a poor idea for Games Workshop to ban non-GW models, etc. from Hobby Centers because it will potentially alienate customers. Plenty of people agree with that and plenty of people don't. There's interesting arguments on both sides. I don't personally believe it has anything to do with the Chapterhouse lawsuit. If indeed GW Hobby Center managers are pushing this issue of late, I think it is a coincidence. Whether it's healthy for the company or not, these sorts of policies are typical of the way GW has been handling its business and whatever damage has been caused by GW allowing third party products to be used in its retail stores is already out there. Changing or enforcing the policy will at this point accomplish little with regard to the Chapterhouse lawsuit.

On topic, I generally feel that GW is shooting itself in the foot by attempting to cordon off Warhammer from the wargaming industry. I can see that there are good reasons for some of the things that feed into this general strategy (such as not allowing any non-GW models or products in Hobby Centers), but on the whole I think the general strategy is short-sighted. There's a reason Marvel dropped the idea of starting a chain of its own comic stores. I think Games Workshop should be pleased with anything that gets people interested in Warhammer and anything that gets them interested in wargaming in general. It is easier to sell Warhammer to a wargamer than to sell it to some that has no idea what wargaming is.

nkelsch wrote:

ArbeitsSchu wrote:True. However, Tamiya are hardly losing bucketloads of cash from their sales because people still buy the kit to start with. It also pushes Tamiya to make better kits, more accurately. If GW really want people to stop using third party bits, they should take a long hard look at the gaping wounds in their product ranges. However, they would be much better served by simply licensing out. People still buy their toys, then spend more money on the extra bits. Everybody still makes money.

Though no doubt Tamiya and others would crap themselves with joy if someone ruled they could trademark Tiger Tanks or whatever. I wouldn't mind reading that article either, but not having a comprehensive collection of FSM, I don't have it.

Last time I checked, Tamiya didn't run a retail store... and the last time I checked, GW wasn't saying you can't convert their models with 3rd party bitz, just don't bring them to GW stores and events.

Also, consumers are selfish and stupid and don't understand the financial expense and business model. GW technically can compete with itself by releasing too many models at once. They want everything right now!!! GIMMIE GIMMIE GIMMIE!

Many other product lines do this and release things in 'waves' where they eventually produce the models/figures/whatever when they can as the market supports it. The only thing is, they shouldn't have to worry about other companies harming their business by directly competing against them with their own IP. Hasbro should be able to reasonably expect another toy manufacturer won't go an make an optimus prime figure just because hasbro doesn't release one in wave 1 of a merchandise rollout... but yet GW has to make every model/unit/warger/everything wave 1 all at once or expect to have it made elsewhere? This is the weak justification that drives the illegal knock-off market with toys. "if the company made them, I wouldn't be forced to buy knock offs." and the funny thing is, when the company does make the product with their own IP eventually people then claim, "Oh, it is too much the knock-off is cheaper... I am still justified."

If you want to use 3rd-party models, then you are not welcome at GW stores, nor should you be... If you think you can run a business better with different policies, go ahead and start one and run it better. You don't have the right to demand GW run it business in a different way to meet your personal whims, especially when the actions may be self-destructive to please an unreasonable consumer.

Business, business, business! Did we forget that we are talking about plastic soldiers! Really, stop and think for one moment, let's take the business side out of it. These are plastic miniatures! Sure, I am not ignorant to the business side of GW. However, to state that GW does not have to meet our demands, is in my opinion foolish. Once again I remind our great community, without us, there is no GW or our great hobby! People stop buying and hobby is gone! It's that simple. Now of course I wish the very best for our hobby and gamers, but, if you are going to release a Codex, and of course I understand why they are release in waves; make the models for it (it doesn't mean two years after the fact, e.g. "TWC")
40k is strong, but it could be stronger! Our community could be better! Because we deserve it, and we my dear friend have be faithful to GW for a long time. This is why we post our replies with passsion! Because I love this hobby, however, does the hobby love me?
We all have our horror stories of being introduce to the 40k universe, only to be let down by salesmen that do not promote our creativity!
You say business, and I reply with passion! You speak of dollars & sense, and I ask, "What has GW done for us lately? They know how to take our money and run a monopoly. If GW is so confident in their products, then perhaps they should take a page out of other game systems!

imalave wrote:

However, to state that GW does not have to meet our demands, is in my opinion foolish.

if the demands are foolish and are not beneficial to the company or are even destructive then they should ignore *YOUR demands.

Once again I remind our great community, without us, there is no GW or our great hobby!

Overestimating the impact an online fandom of extremely dedicated people have and feel the entire company should be beholden to a small minority of customers...

Now of course I wish the very best for our hobby and gamers, but, if you are going to release a Codex, and of course I understand why they are release in waves; make the models for it (it doesn't mean two years after the fact, e.g. "TWC")

Nope. GW shouldn't limit the creativity of the game or the rules available because some people who are unable to model their own conversions expect an unreasonable release of every possible unit. TWC are an expensive plastic kit that may not even be in every SW army and the sales would be limited, maybe not even enough to justify the creation of the plastic modls to create it. You saw the horrible crying over Juggernauts.

Because we deserve it, and we my dear friend have be faithful to GW for a long time.

selfish entitlement. GW owes you nothing except the product that comes in the box you purchase. You are not issued stock with every purchase.

This is why we post our replies with passsion! Because I love this hobby, however, does the hobby love me?

this is absurdity if you feel like this.

They know how to take our money and run a monopoly.

Saying it is a monopoly doesn't make it so.

nkelsch wrote:

imalave wrote:

However, to state that GW does not have to meet our demands, is in my opinion foolish.

if the demands are foolish and are not beneficial to the company or are even destructive then they should ignore *YOUR demands.

Once again I remind our great community, without us, there is no GW or our great hobby!

Overestimating the impact an online fandom of extremely dedicated people have and feel the entire company should be beholden to a small minority of customers...

Now of course I wish the very best for our hobby and gamers, but, if you are going to release a Codex, and of course I understand why they are release in waves; make the models for it (it doesn't mean two years after the fact, e.g. "TWC")

Nope. GW shouldn't limit the creativity of the game or the rules available because some people who are unable to model their own conversions expect an unreasonable release of every possible unit. TWC are an expensive plastic kit that may not even be in every SW army and the sales would be limited, maybe not even enough to justify the creation of the plastic modls to create it. You saw the horrible crying over Juggernauts.

Because we deserve it, and we my dear friend have be faithful to GW for a long time.

selfish entitlement. GW owes you nothing except the product that comes in the box you purchase. You are not issued stock with every purchase.

This is why we post our replies with passsion! Because I love this hobby, however, does the hobby love me?

this is absurdity if you feel like this.

They know how to take our money and run a monopoly.

Saying it is a monopoly doesn't make it so.

Once again, dollar & sense! No passion, too analytical! GW does owe all of us! Once again without us, there is NO GW! Remember! But I can understand if you work for the company, you would feel this way! GW has the right to do whatever they please, however, when it stops pleasing the consumer, well then my dear brother, they would fall just like the rest!

It was said earlier in the post. If you dont rise a big fuss about it then the GW manager walking by should have more on his mind then a few shoulderpads being 3rd party.

My major issue is that GW makes rules for models they dont produce. How long has the beastmen book been out? Where is the jabberslythe? (sp) If this monster of complete mistery is to be fielded I guess I'll just throw a base on the table and say "it's the only GW prorduct that acuretly dpeicts it". See the issue here?

Honestly you are right it's up to the store to decide what they allowed in there. My issue is that most the FLGS' (in my area at least) have been run out of buisness or are no longer carrying GW product/have tables for wargaming because of the effect of GW carbet bombing the area with stores. Those that have resisted it arent very freindly...

nkelsch wrote:

ArbeitsSchu wrote:True. However, Tamiya are hardly losing bucketloads of cash from their sales because people still buy the kit to start with. It also pushes Tamiya to make better kits, more accurately. If GW really want people to stop using third party bits, they should take a long hard look at the gaping wounds in their product ranges. However, they would be much better served by simply licensing out. People still buy their toys, then spend more money on the extra bits. Everybody still makes money.

Though no doubt Tamiya and others would crap themselves with joy if someone ruled they could trademark Tiger Tanks or whatever. I wouldn't mind reading that article either, but not having a comprehensive collection of FSM, I don't have it.

Last time I checked, Tamiya didn't run a retail store... and the last time I checked, GW wasn't saying you can't convert their models with 3rd party bitz, just don't bring them to GW stores and events.

Also, consumers are selfish and stupid and don't understand the financial expense and business model. GW technically can compete with itself by releasing too many models at once. They want everything right now!!! GIMMIE GIMMIE GIMMIE!

Many other product lines do this and release things in 'waves' where they eventually produce the models/figures/whatever when they can as the market supports it. The only thing is, they shouldn't have to worry about other companies harming their business by directly competing against them with their own IP. Hasbro should be able to reasonably expect another toy manufacturer won't go an make an optimus prime figure just because hasbro doesn't release one in wave 1 of a merchandise rollout... but yet GW has to make every model/unit/warger/everything wave 1 all at once or expect to have it made elsewhere? This is the weak justification that drives the illegal knock-off market with toys. "if the company made them, I wouldn't be forced to buy knock offs." and the funny thing is, when the company does make the product with their own IP eventually people then claim, "Oh, it is too much the knock-off is cheaper... I am still justified."

If you want to use 3rd-party models, then you are not welcome at GW stores, nor should you be... If you think you can run a business better with different policies, go ahead and start one and run it better. You don't have the right to demand GW run it business in a different way to meet your personal whims, especially when the actions may be self-destructive to please an unreasonable consumer.

Last time I checked, Hasbro were not trying to market a competitive wargame and thus if Optimus was a little late, there was no need to build one out of cardboard or a Gobot. As for "harming their business" I think its been well covered that people still pay for the original items then add to them, subsequently causing very little harm at all. If GW were to license parts they could also legitimately stock them. Thus they still make sales.

I don't think anyone in this thread has disagreed that the wholesale replacement of models should be permitted. (At least until GW stock other ranges again.)

Again, I'll relate the tale: I no longer take part in 40k 'events' because of the 'all GW' policy. Once upon a time, a game I pre-paid to enter, which said 75% GW was the rule at that time, I was not permitted to play due to them 'adopting' this when a GW judge was brought in at the last min. This donkey-cave, who shall, forever be synonymous with GW in my mind, when I objected, responded by snapping off the offending mini bits and informing me that they were now acceptable.

Whether any official sanction by GW was ever taken, God only knows. Hopefully, his dental bill was high enough.

We all know that GW's models are terribly overpriced, and my guess is that they just don't want people coming in with models that are not only cheaper but look great as well. I myself have several custom models made from other kits that I have used at my local gaming store several times. My point is that yes GW has a right to do as it wishes in its stores but they should be competitive and make better products at reasonable prices rather then force gamers to only use their products, as for myself I'll keep my money and mini's at a store that promotes gaming not just profit.

BaronIveagh wrote:Again, I'll relate the tale: I no longer take part in 40k 'events' because of the 'all GW' policy. Once upon a time, a game I pre-paid to enter, which said 75% GW was the rule at that time, I was not permitted to play due to them 'adopting' this when a GW judge was brought in at the last min. This donkey-cave, who shall, forever be synonymous with GW in my mind, when I objected, responded by snapping off the offending mini bits and informing me that they were now acceptable.

So wait...you objected to it and then were surprised that the guy did something jerky?

Whether any official sanction by GW was ever taken, God only knows. Hopefully, his dental bill was high enough.

If you actually assaulted him, no. Likely no action was ever taken because you acted like a petulant child.

Kanluwen wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:Again, I'll relate the tale: I no longer take part in 40k 'events' because of the 'all GW' policy. Once upon a time, a game I pre-paid to enter, which said 75% GW was the rule at that time, I was not permitted to play due to them 'adopting' this when a GW judge was brought in at the last min. This donkey-cave, who shall, forever be synonymous with GW in my mind, when I objected, responded by snapping off the offending mini bits and informing me that they were now acceptable.

So wait...you objected to it and then were surprised that the guy did something jerky?

Whether any official sanction by GW was ever taken, God only knows. Hopefully, his dental bill was high enough.

If you actually assaulted him, no. Likely no action was ever taken because you acted like a petulant child.

He did it to my entire fething IG army. You know how many heads that is alone? How many hours of work?

Sorry, Kan, where I come from, as the police pointed out to the guy, using force to protect personal possessions is permissible by law. However, vandalism is punishable by three days.

Has anyone got any kind of firm, final answer on what the policy actually is though?

If you look at the thread on the other forum the OP linked to, there was a fair amount of contradictory evidence posted after the initial 'no non-GW parts' post was made. They were from various locations around the world, I think without exceptions other managers when quizzed said that they would allow 3rd party conversions on models in their store.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:Again, I'll relate the tale: I no longer take part in 40k 'events' because of the 'all GW' policy. Once upon a time, a game I pre-paid to enter, which said 75% GW was the rule at that time, I was not permitted to play due to them 'adopting' this when a GW judge was brought in at the last min. This donkey-cave, who shall, forever be synonymous with GW in my mind, when I objected, responded by snapping off the offending mini bits and informing me that they were now acceptable.

So wait...you objected to it and then were surprised that the guy did something jerky?

Whether any official sanction by GW was ever taken, God only knows. Hopefully, his dental bill was high enough.

If you actually assaulted him, no. Likely no action was ever taken because you acted like a petulant child.

He did it to my entire fething IG army. You know how many heads that is alone? How many hours of work?

I'm more impressed that he did it off the entire army

Sorry, Kan, where I come from, as the police pointed out to the guy, using force to protect personal possessions is permissible by law. However, vandalism is punishable by three days.

And where anyone reasonable comes from, they'd say you behaved like a child and provoked the action.

There's no way it was just heads if it was over 25% of the model. There's just no feasible way. There's got to be something you're not telling us.
Was the entire army painted? Were they planning on photographing the armies for White Dwarf?
I just can't see a guy doing that to an entire army just because of some heads.

Kanluwen wrote:
I'm more impressed that he did it off the entire army

He had about ten min while I went and got the FLGS manager.

Kanluwen wrote:
And where anyone reasonable comes from, they'd say you behaved like a child and provoked the action.

There's no way it was just heads if it was over 25% of the model. There's just no feasible way. There's got to be something you're not telling us.
Was the entire army painted? Were they planning on photographing the armies for White Dwarf?
I just can't see a guy doing that to an entire army just because of some heads.

Where do reasonable people come from Kan? I've seen 'reasonable people' turn on one another like savage dogs when the chips are down. My idea of 'child like' behavior is not having any guts to stand up for yourself. As far as 'provoking' if you mean 'what do you mean 'no'?' and going and getting the manager to who had taken my hard earned dollars some time in the past for this event and had already approved this army, then, yes, I provoked him.

I challenged the tiny bit of authority he thought he had, and therefor totally justified whatever actions he took next. /sarcasm

And, you didn't pay attention again. They were 'non-GW IP' at all, not that I had exceeded the 25%. You like to get smug about how right you are without bothering to read key points. It's really irritating.

Yes, the entire army was painted. I don't do unpainted minis. As far as my painting skills go, I refer you to my gallery here on Dakka or over at CMON. I don't have any greens up, but I have done them in the past. One of which was decapitated at said event.

As far as I know, no photography was involved. It was a FLGS tourney they brought in some yahoo from GW for, the prize being a Warhound Titan. it was the *last* time such an event was held, and our FLGS no longer carries Warhammer 40k.

He wa asked to leave, and then the police were called. He had also done some damage to other people's armies for similar 'reasons'.

BaronIveagh wrote:
He wa asked to leave, and then the police were called. He had also done some damage to other people's armies for similar 'reasons'.

Assault is still assault... and vandalism doesn't make it not assault or 'justified' assault. If the guy wanted to press charges he could have and if he wanted to sue you civilly he could have... he may not have gotten far but he still could have. And defending your property doesn't give you license to go on the offense. I seriously doubt when you returned that you needed to do little more than stand between him and your models to get him to stop removing parts. And if he was 'done' there was nothing left to defend so any physical action you took was retaliatory and criminal and no longer in defense of your property. You could have called the police and taken civil action but instead you supposedly broke his teeth...

...If this story actually happened. Personally, I declare official shenanigans on all wargamers who supposedly resort to physical violence over wargaming or claim they would when they don't get their way. It doesn't actually happen at the frequently people on these boards claim and never to the extent like how people claim to 'have broken his hand' and 'caused him a dental bill'.

I am sure you have pictures of this entire army with pieces broken off right? Since you would have wanted it for your insurance claim and for the police report and to protect yourself from a civil suit so you could show the extend of the damages you were trying to prevent. I know you have this because no one would claim such an absurd lie without basic evidence which is so easy to prove even if it was many many many years ago...

BaronIveagh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
I'm more impressed that he did it off the entire army

He had about ten min while I went and got the FLGS manager.

Kanluwen wrote:
And where anyone reasonable comes from, they'd say you behaved like a child and provoked the action.

There's no way it was just heads if it was over 25% of the model. There's just no feasible way. There's got to be something you're not telling us.
Was the entire army painted? Were they planning on photographing the armies for White Dwarf?
I just can't see a guy doing that to an entire army just because of some heads.

Where do reasonable people come from Kan? I've seen 'reasonable people' turn on one another like savage dogs when the chips are down. My idea of 'child like' behavior is not having any guts to stand up for yourself. As far as 'provoking' if you mean 'what do you mean 'no'?' and going and getting the manager to who had taken my hard earned dollars some time in the past for this event and had already approved this army, then, yes, I provoked him.

I challenged the tiny bit of authority he thought he had, and therefore totally justified whatever actions he took next. /sarcasm

And, you didn't pay attention again. They were 'non-GW IP' at all, not that I had exceeded the 25%. You like to get smug about how right you are without bothering to read key points. It's really irritating.

There was nothing about "I'm right" in there. You're reading more into my comment than I put into it. If really all that happened was "What do you mean 'no'?" and then he broke your stuff--then he got what he deserved. But I'm taking the same stance I always do whenever we get these internet stories in that something feels off.

Yes, the entire army was painted. I don't do unpainted minis. As far as my painting skills go, I refer you to my gallery here on Dakka or over at CMON. I don't have any greens up, but I have done them in the past. One of which was decapitated at said event.

As far as I know, no photography was involved. It was a FLGS tourney they brought in some yahoo from GW for, the prize being a Warhound Titan. it was the *last* time such an event was held, and our FLGS no longer carries Warhammer 40k.

He was asked to leave, and then the police were called. He had also done some damage to other people's armies for similar 'reasons'.

If that's truly the case, then that sucks and the guy was a twit. But simply put: something feels off.