Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Tadashi wrote:Actually I was just answering the question about the Tau confronting the Pre-Heresy Imperium.

You're missing the point. To answer to which that was already painfully obvious. A previous poster already said that such a discussion would only once again promote Imperial fanboyism, and serve no real meaningful purpose. Even if 40k Tau fought 31k Imperium, I would figure the answer was so blindingly obvious, only someone so very pro-IoM would bother to answer it, if only to just smugly once again mention the superiority of the Imperium, whether now or ten thousand years in the past.

Besides that, "Who would win between Tau and Pre-Heresy Imperium?" is one of those meaningless "what if" questions that serve no real purpose. The discussion is not even on an equal footing, considering I would argue that the Pre-Heresr warmachine was so much superior to what it was then than it is now. What if 40k IoM fought the Tau Empire if they were given an additional two-thousand year development time? They came far enough in two thousand years, how much further in another two? What about the Tau Empire in the 50k universe? They'd probably wipe the floor with 40k IoM.

I'm done here, this thread's just devolved into people, pretty much just yelling back and forth. It seems a lot more responsable and appropriate to call the situation a stand-still and let GW's writers solve the issue, they're the people getting paid for it.

If the novel Legion, was correct, neither the Tau nor the Imperium would exist in 50k. Only Chaos would be left, with 5 Chaos Gods. On the other hand, if the Emperor is reborn, as the Star Child Cycle is completed with the Golden Throne's failure, only Humans would be left in 50k.

Tadashi wrote:If the novel Legion, was correct, neither the Tau nor the Imperium would exist in 50k. Only Chaos would be left, with 5 Chaos Gods. On the other hand, if the Emperor is reborn, as the Star Child Cycle is completed with the Golden Throne's failure, only Humans would be left in 50k.

Once again, you are missing the point. I did not ask you to take the question literally. The point was so you could think about how meaningless such discussions (and others like it) are. Besides, you dont know what will happen in the next ten thousand years of the 40k universe. No one does. It's only conjecture, hyperbole and wishlisting.

Tadashi wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:
Esp. when one poster enters that calls all tau players hateworthy and smiles at Americans being killed.

First one is true, and for the second one - no one died. Pilot was captured then released after few hours of transporting. It was more fun imagining how he would explain losing a plane worth millions of dollars to anti-air system that was outdated for 30 years

Spoiler:

And what's with you Kroothawk? 2 World Wars not enough for you?

Back to OP: What if Tau fought against the Imperium from M31?

A full Astartes Legion advancing into the Tau Empire led by a demi-god? They don't stand a chance. It's like fighting ten or more full-strength Chapters at once. Not to mention the regular component of an Expeditionary Fleet, equivalent to a full Crusading force of Guardsmen and Navy ships in the Post-Heresy Imperium. Not to mention since the Primarch has overall command, the Imperial Truth is still ascendant, the Imperial won't start having problems with inter-command and incompetence.

Well that's simply not true, is it? Ever read Horus Rising? Ever heard of the Interex? They're a similar faction to the Tau, likely with a similar sized empire with advanced technology and xenos allies. Even then, the Imperium judged the Interex to be too large an undertaking at the time, they did not have enough available forces. So yeah, you have no idea what you're talking about.

What happened with the interex?

I could see the Tau calling for help from the Eldar. The Eldar say yes, Then its a war inside a war. Warception. Both races would be obliterated though. The imperium has the man power and the tech. Tau have good tech but get them against a CQB SM army then theyre screwed. Eldar would take longer but would be destroyed nonetheless.

nomotog wrote:What happened with the interex?

They were ultimately destroyed by the Imperium. At least according to False Gods.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

iproxtaco wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:
Esp. when one poster enters that calls all tau players hateworthy and smiles at Americans being killed.

First one is true, and for the second one - no one died. Pilot was captured then released after few hours of transporting. It was more fun imagining how he would explain losing a plane worth millions of dollars to anti-air system that was outdated for 30 years

Spoiler:

And what's with you Kroothawk? 2 World Wars not enough for you?

Back to OP: What if Tau fought against the Imperium from M31?

A full Astartes Legion advancing into the Tau Empire led by a demi-god? They don't stand a chance. It's like fighting ten or more full-strength Chapters at once. Not to mention the regular component of an Expeditionary Fleet, equivalent to a full Crusading force of Guardsmen and Navy ships in the Post-Heresy Imperium. Not to mention since the Primarch has overall command, the Imperial Truth is still ascendant, the Imperial won't start having problems with inter-command and incompetence.

Well that's simply not true, is it? Ever read Horus Rising? Ever heard of the Interex? They're a similar faction to the Tau, likely with a similar sized empire with advanced technology and xenos allies. Even then, the Imperium judged the Interex to be too large an undertaking at the time, they did not have enough available forces. So yeah, you have no idea what you're talking about.

So yes, I do know what I'm talking about.

Eldar would kick the iom butt. Ever hear of the disaster of blood nebula. The eldar wiped out an entire sector fleet. However the eldar are probually the closest thing the iom has as an ally. Granted the iom would win in the longrun.

Ronin wrote: What if 40k IoM fought the Tau Empire if they were given an additional two-thousand year development time? They came far enough in two thousand years, how much further in another two? What about the Tau Empire in the 50k universe? They'd probably wipe the floor with 40k IoM.

You see I can answer this: I don't know.
And you can't ask that question at all: because we don't know where Tau will advance in the next 2000 years.
They may try some different approaches, like genetic engineering, better AI research, better armor for basic troops...
Tau can't have teleporters ( because all teleportation in 40k goes trough the Warp ), they can't have faster FTL ( because existing FTL is the fastest speed they can achieve without going trough the Warp. Now with Necrons retconed with their FTL we only have Tau tech ) and they can't go trough Warp because they have no psykers. They wil lliterally be in the same side of the galaxy with roughly a little larger territory even after 2000 years. Because if they had larger empire they would need years to reach a planet for example. And that planet would disappear long before help arrives.
But Imperium would still be able to wipe floor with Tau even after 2000 years. Chaos, Orks, Tyranids and Necrons to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Eldar would kick the iom butt. Ever hear of the disaster of blood nebula. The eldar wiped out an entire sector fleet. However the eldar are probually the closest thing the iom has as an ally. Granted the iom would win in the longrun.

That doesn't mean that Eldar are in any way able to defeat the Imperium.

And you forgoten to mention that System Fleet attack THE CRAFTWORLD. Craftworld is size of a planet ( small ones - Earth size, large ones - Jupiter size ) that have gakload of defense guns and turrets. It would be like 2000 infantry with all sort of weapons attack heavily defended fortress, they wouldn't stand a chance even if there was 20000 of them.

But if they just rush toward the Craftworld and drop off millions of troopers into the Craftworld that would be a different story.

And in 41'st millennium Eldar and Tau are the only thing Imperium have for allies. Eldar occasionally help the Imperium, having secret pact's wit hthe Inquisition with Imperium returning their relics to them ( Like Malan'Tai Craftworld ). And Tau that actually have non-aggression pact with the Imperium and peace treaty ( that was singed after the Nimbosa massacre ).

Tau IoM treaties aren't really worth the electron scrolls there written on.

nomotog wrote:Tau IoM treaties aren't really worth the electron scrolls there written on.

It seems it depends on the Etherial.
While most of them are for peace, some individuals will push for war and do independent things ( like Kronus or Kaurava were we have only 1 Etherial to lead Tau ).

It also depends on the Imperial Governors.
Some would gladly give up their world to have even higher power then they currently have ( Fire and Honor ), some would even go to war against Tau ( Severus ).
But Ultramarines and Imperium see Tau as no threat and sing treaty with them so that they can at least stabilize one part of the galaxy.

Wasn't Nimbosa attacked by the IoM after the massacre. That whould put the lifespan of that peace treaty at very short.

Peace treaty was singed AFTER Imperium conquered Nimbosa sector again.
This time, it was the Tau that seek treaty.

And we don't know when Nimbosa happened, thank you GW.

Sources:

Codex: Imperial Guard (5th Edition) - 790.M41.
Cities of Death - 993.M41.
Codex: Tau Empire (4th Edition) - "Imperial response only took four months to enact"
"Assault on Nimbosa" - 999.M41.

Ah.

But if they just rush toward the Craftworld and drop off millions of troopers into the Craftworld that would be a different story.

just...not...happening

Well it worked for 110 years, thats pritty good by our standards, but on a galactic level, is that a long time? I don't know.

Isn't this better. were talking about how they made friends and didn't fight for 110years!

Ledabot wrote:Well it worked for 110 years, thats pritty good by our standards, but on a galactic level, is that a long time? I don't know.

Let me help you:

If all time of Earth existence is put on an 24 hours clock, the Human race appeared in 23:59:59.
Warhammer 41 would probably be somewhere between 0:02:00 or 0:03:00.
So, that's not even an eye blink for galactic level.

Well yea, on a galactic scale, but were not looking at the point of view of the galaxy itself, but the future view point of humans and/or tau at that time. For us, 100 years is more than a life time, a very long time. But in 40000, would it still be considered a long time? We can only ghess.

Edit: typo

The imperium would never be albe to wipe out anything due to their slowed burocracy. Since Rowboat Girlyman slit up the legions into small uncontrollable weak chapters, it would be very hard to gather a large enough force. And the adepts of the ministorium would shoot themselves when presented with the task to get all of the Guard to the Tau. Just imagine the paperwork. And to the FTL gak. The tau can I think use the Nicassar or maybe human psykers. Besides we all know that the orks will win in the long run. They have been kicking around since the war in the heavens and the Great Crusade failed to wipe them out.

It would be cool if orks had some kind of back story about how there true perpose all along was to fight nids or something. (not crons, we know that) lol if it happens.

Space Crusader wrote:The imperium would never be albe to wipe out anything due to their slowed burocracy.

True, they lost more planets to paperwork then to the actual invader.

Since Rowboat Girlyman slit up the legions into small uncontrollable weak chapters, it would be very hard to gather a large enough force.

Point A: Tau fan and an Ultramarine hater, how nice. Guiliman split the Legion because of some minor incident called Horus Heresy. Not a big deal, right? Badab War - 4 SM Chapter rebelled against the Imperium, imagine that those were Legions. 40,000 Space Marines is not little thing at all to try and stop...
Point B: They can't gather large enough force? Armageddon and 13'th Black Crusade disagree with you.

And the adepts of the ministorium would shoot themselves when presented with the task to get all of the Guard to the Tau. Just imagine the paperwork.

So very true, they would probably "lose" several Regiments in the process.

And to the FTL gak. The tau can I think use the Nicassar or maybe human psykers.

Etherials banned all of that so it's a big no no for the Tau to try to investigate psykers since they are directly connected to the Warp.
And what happened to Mankind when they tried that? Oh yeah, Age of Strife.

Besides we all know that the orks will win in the long run.

Humanity, Necrons, Chaos and Tyranids disagree with that.

They have been kicking around since the war in the heavens

True, but they have been kicking themselves much more then other races since the dawn of the War in Havens.

Great Crusade failed to wipe them out.

That's because Great Crusade is still on even today ( Black Tempalrs ).

Brother Coa wrote:

Space Crusader wrote:The imperium would never be albe to wipe out anything due to their slowed burocracy.

True, they lost more planets to paperwork then to the actual invader.

Since Rowboat Girlyman slit up the legions into small uncontrollable weak chapters, it would be very hard to gather a large enough force.

Point A: Tau fan and an Ultramarine hater, how nice. Guiliman split the Legion because of some minor incident called Horus Heresy. Not a big deal, right? Badab War - 4 SM Chapter rebelled against the Imperium, imagine that those were Legions. 40,000 Space Marines is not little thing at all to try and stop...
Point B: They can't gather large enough force? Armageddon and 13'th Black Crusade disagree with you.

And the adepts of the ministorium would shoot themselves when presented with the task to get all of the Guard to the Tau. Just imagine the paperwork.

So very true, they would probably "lose" several Regiments in the process.

And to the FTL gak. The tau can I think use the Nicassar or maybe human psykers.

Etherials banned all of that so it's a big no no for the Tau to try to investigate psykers since they are directly connected to the Warp.
And what happened to Mankind when they tried that? Oh yeah, Age of Strife.

Besides we all know that the orks will win in the long run.

Humanity, Necrons, Chaos and Tyranids disagree with that.

They have been kicking around since the war in the heavens

True, but they have been kicking themselves much more then other races since the dawn of the War in Havens.

Great Crusade failed to wipe them out.

That's because Great Crusade is still on even today ( Black Tempalrs ).

I do not hate the ultramarines, I hate Guilliman for his betrayal. If the legions still existed they would not betray the Imperium since most of their primarchs had died for it. But when almost all chapters ignore their heritage and instead become obsessed with politics and power(Astral Claws for example). Its easier to turn renegade then before thanks to the traitor Girlyman.

Space Crusader wrote:
I do not hate the ultramarines, I hate Guilliman for his betrayal. If the legions still existed they would not betray the Imperium since most of their primarchs had died for it. But when almost all chapters ignore their heritage and instead become obsessed with politics and power(Astral Claws for example). Its easier to turn renegade then before thanks to the traitor Girlyman.

Ok, that is your opinion and I respect that. And I agree with Astral Claws point.

Here: I made a thread so that we can here discuss about Tau and not about Guilimans decision.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/413770.page
Plese, present your opinion if you wish.

Ah yes, I am the only person to be of topic...

Tadashi wrote:

nomotog wrote:What happened with the interex?

They were ultimately destroyed by the Imperium. At least according to False Gods.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

iproxtaco wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:
Esp. when one poster enters that calls all tau players hateworthy and smiles at Americans being killed.

First one is true, and for the second one - no one died. Pilot was captured then released after few hours of transporting. It was more fun imagining how he would explain losing a plane worth millions of dollars to anti-air system that was outdated for 30 years

Spoiler:

And what's with you Kroothawk? 2 World Wars not enough for you?

Back to OP: What if Tau fought against the Imperium from M31?

A full Astartes Legion advancing into the Tau Empire led by a demi-god? They don't stand a chance. It's like fighting ten or more full-strength Chapters at once. Not to mention the regular component of an Expeditionary Fleet, equivalent to a full Crusading force of Guardsmen and Navy ships in the Post-Heresy Imperium. Not to mention since the Primarch has overall command, the Imperial Truth is still ascendant, the Imperial won't start having problems with inter-command and incompetence.

Well that's simply not true, is it? Ever read Horus Rising? Ever heard of the Interex? They're a similar faction to the Tau, likely with a similar sized empire with advanced technology and xenos allies. Even then, the Imperium judged the Interex to be too large an undertaking at the time, they did not have enough available forces. So yeah, you have no idea what you're talking about.

So yes, I do know what I'm talking about.

Then you missed my point completely. A sub-species of human with highly advanced technology was deemed too large to handle by even the forces the Warmaster controlled. It took months to gather enough forces, and longer to actually prosecute a campaign against them. This was at the time of the Great Crusade, the Imperium is nothing like it was back then. Even with a single leader and readily available forces it took a long time to even contemplate the possibility of a war against them. Currently, it's like a really powerful Tortoise being picked at by rats. The Tortoise could potentially kill the rats with a single hit, but its too slow and cumbersome, and its enemies are many. There are bigger things to worry about, any sort of attack on the Tau is unfeasible.

Macharius did, however, eventually crush the Interex.

And now, "... nothing is left of them and their works but dust", to quote Lord Solar Macharius' journal.

if the imperium didnt' have to fight on 1 billion other fronts and could focus soley on the tau it would be no contest. however, as it is, the tau are a really really small concern, are considred the lowest threat to the imperium so why waste time and resourses combating them fully?

I'm not terribly fond of Macharius' veiws that all memory of an enemy is to be destroyed, that's how new, advanced technology is developed, after all, human technology comes from the Dragon of Mars who is speculated to be a C'Tan...

Psienesis wrote:Macharius did, however, eventually crush the Interex.

And now, "... nothing is left of them and their works but dust", to quote Lord Solar Macharius' journal.

Afaik that quote was from the destruction of Adrantis V and not from the destruction of the Interex, whose fate remains unknown.
For all we know the Interex might have been completely forgotten and still exists in relative isolation beyond the borders of the current Imperium.