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ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Good god this thread is fethed. And i put the black crusades in a win-loss-draw format.

Hey so vaa chaa you say you plays tau due to they are most like the us military. May i ask how? And yeah ig are strongly based on ww2 tactics, but you can run a combined arms style on the tabletop.

sigh..I did not say they were anything like the U.S. military, I said I am in the U.S. Army and the Tau are the least offensive to my modern/real world leanings, But they do use fire and manuver, laser directed weapons systems, and a more agile fighting style, that is reminiscent of Modern tactics.

And yes I have played IG...many times, and am working on a Elysian force now, but still they are a much more ww2 flavored army.( and they did have combined arm in that war as well.)

I only answered in this thread since a question was directly asked, pretty much done here.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Good god this thread is fethed. And i put the black crusades in a win-loss-draw format.

Hey so vaa chaa you say you plays tau due to they are most like the us military. May i ask how? And yeah ig are strongly based on ww2 tactics, but you can run a combined arms style on the tabletop.

Id like to see 20-30 Predators/Land raiders/Leman Russes against just 5 or 10 Hammerheads. It'd be like Desert Storm all over again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_73_Easting

TLDR:

"The 12 M1A1 tanks of Eagle Troop destroyed 28 Iraqi tanks, 16 personnel carriers. and 30 trucks in 23 minutes with no American losses."

Superior technology>superior numbers

Ground battles will be dictated by the quicker force, which is the Tau. Hammerheads aren't hampered by terrain, have 50% more range then the IOM standards, and hit harder. Let's just do some assuming and say that a Hammerhead has a rate of fire of 1/5 seconds. So at a miss rate of 33%, and a destruction/immob rate of say, 50%, you've got a single Hammerhead accounted for a single IOM vehicle every 15 seconds. Considering the Hammerhead can remain out of range of the Predators guns forever, is fairly resistant to the Leman Rus, is twice as fast as both, and can go where it wants, you can bet the Tau would be moving with impunity, especially if the terrain isnt friendly to tracked vehicles.

10 Hammerheads=40 dead/worthless predators in about a minute.

Well yeah, but predators suck any way. Have you heard of the leman russ vanquisher. Same range as a hammerhead. More penatrating power. Plus there is a tank destroyer mentioned in gaunts ghosts. The tau have superior tech, true. But the ig has the superior armor, and numbers. Plus the ig out ranges the tau.

And the soviets would disagree with you on greater tech beats greater numbers. As would the nva. As would the american army in ww2.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Well yeah, but predators suck any way. Have you heard of the leman russ vanquisher. Same range as a hammerhead. More penatrating power. Plus there is a tank destroyer mentioned in gaunts ghosts. The tau have superior tech, true. But the ig has the superior armor, and numbers. Plus the ig out ranges the tau.

Vanquishers are irrelevant. There's only 1 or 2 forge worlds still producing them, and neither are any where near the Tau Empire.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Well yeah, but predators suck any way. Have you heard of the leman russ vanquisher. Same range as a hammerhead. More penatrating power. Plus there is a tank destroyer mentioned in gaunts ghosts. The tau have superior tech, true. But the ig has the superior armor, and numbers. Plus the ig out ranges the tau.

And the soviets would disagree with you on greater tech beats greater numbers. As would the nva. As would the american army in ww2.

The IG out range the tau? where do you get that from?

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Well yeah, but predators suck any way. Have you heard of the leman russ vanquisher. Same range as a hammerhead. More penatrating power. Plus there is a tank destroyer mentioned in gaunts ghosts. The tau have superior tech, true. But the ig has the superior armor, and numbers. Plus the ig out ranges the tau.

And the soviets would disagree with you on greater tech beats greater numbers. As would the nva. As would the american army in ww2.

The Vanquiser is now only built on a singe Forgeworld. The Tankdestroyer is a very rare vehicle since it's complicated maingun can only be produced on a small number of forgeworlds. Your soviet/ us army comparision is plain wrong. Both the soviet union and the us army ( which in adition followed a completely different, although wrong, tank doctrine ) had comparable, in some cases even superior, technology to the Wehrmacht. Yes, even the much maligned Sherman was comparable to the most used german armoured vehicle ( including Jagdpanzer/ Sturmgeschütz variants ) designs.
The NVA was, for quite obvious reasons, supplied with some of the best equipment that the warsaw pact had to offer. Since (thankfully) both german armies never had to fight each other we will never know who would have won.
Both the Leman Russ and the Hammerhead have an effective range of 72inches on the tabletop. The Hammerhead is the superior tank. From a modern perspective both designs are, at best, suboptimal.

From the range stats. Look at it. Most tau weapons cut off around 36. Their apc has an laughable 18 inch range. I exploit this all the time, i sit back and let my autocannons, lascannons, missile launchers, medusa, and manticores, ect kill the tau with out him getting many shots back.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:From the range stats. Look at it. Most tau weapons cut off around 36. Their apc has an laughable 18 inch range. I exploit this all the time, i sit back and let my autocannons, lascannons, missile launchers, medusa, and manticores, ect kill the tau with out him getting many shots back.

Game mechanics =/= fluff.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:From the range stats. Look at it. Most tau weapons cut off around 36. Their apc has an laughable 18 inch range. I exploit this all the time, i sit back and let my autocannons, lascannons, missile launchers, medusa, and manticores, ect kill the tau with out him getting many shots back.

Most IG weapons cut out at 24 inches. Unless things have changed.

TrollPie wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:From the range stats. Look at it. Most tau weapons cut off around 36. Their apc has an laughable 18 inch range. I exploit this all the time, i sit back and let my autocannons, lascannons, missile launchers, medusa, and manticores, ect kill the tau with out him getting many shots back.

Game mechanics =/= fluff.

The fluff is based off the game machanics. So you can use the gm as a rough guide to the fluff.

TrollPie wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:From the range stats. Look at it. Most tau weapons cut off around 36. Their apc has an laughable 18 inch range. I exploit this all the time, i sit back and let my autocannons, lascannons, missile launchers, medusa, and manticores, ect kill the tau with out him getting many shots back.

Game mechanics =/= fluff.

Game mechanics and fluff do share a close relationship. Fluff is influenced by game mechanics. (Do you think the IG would be thought of as a meat grinder with out there table top presence as a hoard army) Mechanics also follow the fluff. You don't have one army that totally different style in the fluff that they are in the rules. (Tau are range in fluff and rules.)

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

TrollPie wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:From the range stats. Look at it. Most tau weapons cut off around 36. Their apc has an laughable 18 inch range. I exploit this all the time, i sit back and let my autocannons, lascannons, missile launchers, medusa, and manticores, ect kill the tau with out him getting many shots back.

Game mechanics =/= fluff.

The fluff is based off the game machanics. So you can use the gm as a rough guide to the fluff.

The lasgun, and most handheld weapons are still 24 or less but most heavy weapons and vechile weapons are at least 36inch or better. And the artillery is still long ranged.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

TrollPie wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:From the range stats. Look at it. Most tau weapons cut off around 36. Their apc has an laughable 18 inch range. I exploit this all the time, i sit back and let my autocannons, lascannons, missile launchers, medusa, and manticores, ect kill the tau with out him getting many shots back.

Game mechanics =/= fluff.

The fluff is based off the game machanics. So you can use the gm as a rough guide to the fluff.

The lasgun, and most handheld weapons are still 24 or less but most heavy weapons and vechile weapons are at least 36inch or better. And the artillery is still long ranged.

Most tau heavy weapons are 36 or longer. It's only that special set of crisis suit weapons that are short range. Then seeker missiles are unlimited.

So the tau have the longest range weapon (Seeker missle). They have the longest range base weapon (Pulse rifle). Tanks seem to be about the same range. (Depends on if the tank has a battle cannon or one of the shorter range weapons.)

Devilfish may only have 18" range, but in an armored fight, they wouldn't be committed. Read up on that link about the gulf war; Bradley IFVs only found the enemy, Abrams maneuvered and destroyed them. Similarly, you can bet on the Tau to not commit to trench warfare by deploying their Devilfish and infantry unless absolutely required to in order to support the Hammerheads.

Go read up on how many Abrams tanks were destroyed by enemy tanks during the Gulf war, then go find how many Iraqi tanks were destroyed. THEN go read up on how many German tanks were lost simply due to crappy terrain whilst invading Russia.

Starting to see where a numerically superior force of IG/SM MBTs would be grabbing their ankles in any sort of open warfare?

And the soviets would disagree with you on greater tech beats greater numbers. As would the nva. As would the american army in ww2.

Soviet equipment has failed in the real world against superior tech. NVA, fighting a completely guerrilla based groundwar in dense terrain is a very specific example, and we still killed much more of them than the other way around, and while the last example is the closest, the technological gap is still just too much. We're talking about an MBT that has complete superiority in terms of range and firepower, as well as absolutely unquestionable dominance while maneuvering. We can debate all day about how the actual fight would go down, but the Hammerhead dictates where and when 100% of the time.

To quote the oft mis-quoted general:

"Getting there firstest with the mostest"

You might have hundreds Leman Russes, Predators, Chimeras, etc across 1,000 square kilometers but what really matters is what you have concentrated within a 2-3 square kilometer area, which is where the Tau's superior mobility makes a difference.

Negator80 wrote:



Starting to see where a numerically superior force of IG/SM MBTs would be grabbing their ankles in any sort of open warfare?

See what? That russia and iraq doesn't exist in 40k?

Negator80 wrote: NVA, fighting a completely guerrilla based groundwar in dense terrain is a very specific example, and we still killed much more of them than the other way around, and while the last example is the closest, the technological gap is still just too much. We're talking about an MBT that has complete superiority in terms of range and firepower, as well as absolutely unquestionable dominance while maneuvering. We can debate all day about how the actual fight would go down, but the Hammerhead dictates where and when 100% of the time.

The Hammerhead dies.

Seriously this nonsense of made up rates of fire, examples of real life forces compared to a fictional universe, I would suggest to stop that attempt to create proof of the improvable.

If you go for game terms, GW tables are generally too small and your vehicles cramped so tight the wouldn't be any maneuvering at all.
In fluff, whoever is the main actor of a story wins. But never as much as you seem to think. Autowins aren't possible in 40k.
Wouldn't fit in Grimdark(tm).

Dose it bother anyone that the hammerhead is a gunship, but we keep talking about it like it's a tank. Granted it looks like a tank. Anyone else bugged by this contradiction.

1hadhq wrote:

Negator80 wrote:



Starting to see where a numerically superior force of IG/SM MBTs would be grabbing their ankles in any sort of open warfare?

See what? That russia and iraq doesn't exist in 40k?

Negator80 wrote: NVA, fighting a completely guerrilla based groundwar in dense terrain is a very specific example, and we still killed much more of them than the other way around, and while the last example is the closest, the technological gap is still just too much. We're talking about an MBT that has complete superiority in terms of range and firepower, as well as absolutely unquestionable dominance while maneuvering. We can debate all day about how the actual fight would go down, but the Hammerhead dictates where and when 100% of the time.

The Hammerhead dies.

Seriously this nonsense of made up rates of fire, examples of real life forces compared to a fictional universe, I would suggest to stop that attempt to create proof of the improvable.

If you go for game terms, GW tables are generally too small and your vehicles cramped so tight the wouldn't be any maneuvering at all.
In fluff, whoever is the main actor of a story wins. But never as much as you seem to think. Autowins aren't possible in 40k.
Wouldn't fit in Grimdark(tm).

If you hadn't drank the GW koolaid too you wouldnt be saying that. Stop thinking inside the GW box (or the 4'x8'x engagement area).

It's interesting, that's why we make it up and talk about nonsensical gak like this.

EDIT: gunship, tank, it fills the role of 'deciding armored factor' for the Tau.

If you're IG playing against Tau, you could deep strike in with stormtroopers
with AP 3 hotshot lasguns and take out whatever is hiding in the back(Fire Warriors, Hammerhead, etc)

My friend plays Tau and he usually keeps everything but drones in the back.

nomotog wrote:Dose it bother anyone that the hammerhead is a gunship, but we keep talking about it like it's a tank. Granted it looks like a tank. Anyone else bugged by this contradiction.

Personally I'm fine with it. It has the weapons of a tank, the armour of a tank, and the mobility of a helicopter.

That doesn't seem a big stretch in a future where space elves riding space anti-grav bikes shoot space magic lightning at space Librarians wearing space magic helmets which deflect space magic.

Negator80 wrote:
If you hadn't drank the GW koolaid too you wouldnt be saying that. Stop thinking inside the GW box (or the 4'x8'x engagement area).

It's interesting, that's why we make it up and talk about nonsensical gak like this.

EDIT: gunship, tank, it fills the role of 'deciding armored factor' for the Tau.

koolaid? I never drink what GW offers...

The GW box is the place the rules and statlines are made for.
Real Tanks would never lumber around or sit as pillboxes there , like they had , depending on the edition played.
But, you seem to miss the difference of the GW-40k-verse. A place filled with psykers amongst other things who may screw the pure technical approach. So either the vehicles run in the environment we all know or the sandbox needs definition and the vehicles altered rules and maybe altered statlines first.

As is, they belong in 40k, on that small "battlefield"...

40k enables a lot of variety, but restricts too.
HtH is mandatory. Not optional.

Its 'drive me closer, I want to hit them with my chainsword' .....

I wanna know where alot of these guys get their crack from must be some high quality stuff ^_^ hehe

Malroke wrote:I wanna know where alot of these guys get their crack from must be some high quality stuff ^_^ hehe

No crack, little plastic men. Crack is cheaper.

Kroothawk wrote:
Esp. when one poster enters that calls all tau players hateworthy and smiles at Americans being killed.

First one is true, and for the second one - no one died. Pilot was captured then released after few hours of transporting. It was more fun imagining how he would explain losing a plane worth millions of dollars to anti-air system that was outdated for 30 years


Back to OP: What if Tau fought against the Imperium from M31?

Brother Coa wrote:Back to OP: What if Tau fought against the Imperium from M31?

Must... Lock... Thread...

It's going to turn into a stupid 'Look at the Emperor's Awsomeness Thread'.

TBH the Tau would have preferred to talk to the Emperor about his common interests with Greater Good.

Brother Coa wrote:
Back to OP: What if Tau fought against the Imperium from M31?

Nevermind the fact that the Tau didnt even exist as a species back then, so technically the Imperium already wins.

Lock this thread, please. It's going nowhere.

nomotog wrote:

Malroke wrote:I wanna know where alot of these guys get their crack from must be some high quality stuff ^_^ hehe

No crack, little plastic men. Crack is cheaper.

And less addictive

KplKeegan wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Back to OP: What if Tau fought against the Imperium from M31?

Must... Lock... Thread...

It's going to turn into a stupid 'Look at the Emperor's Awsomeness Thread'.

How could it become anything less with Coa around

Brother Coa wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:
Esp. when one poster enters that calls all tau players hateworthy and smiles at Americans being killed.

First one is true, and for the second one - no one died. Pilot was captured then released after few hours of transporting. It was more fun imagining how he would explain losing a plane worth millions of dollars to anti-air system that was outdated for 30 years

Spoiler:

And what's with you Kroothawk? 2 World Wars not enough for you?

Back to OP: What if Tau fought against the Imperium from M31?

A full Astartes Legion advancing into the Tau Empire led by a demi-god? They don't stand a chance. It's like fighting ten or more full-strength Chapters at once. Not to mention the regular component of an Expeditionary Fleet, equivalent to a full Crusading force of Guardsmen and Navy ships in the Post-Heresy Imperium. Not to mention since the Primarch has overall command, the Imperial Truth is still ascendant, the Imperial won't start having problems with inter-command and incompetence.

Tadashi wrote:A full Astartes Legion advancing into the Tau Empire led by a demi-god? They don't stand a chance. It's like fighting ten or more full-strength Chapters at once. Not to mention the regular component of an Expeditionary Fleet, equivalent to a full Crusading force of Guardsmen and Navy ships in the Post-Heresy Imperium. Not to mention since the Primarch has overall command, the Imperial Truth is still ascendant, the Imperial won't start having problems with inter-command and incompetence.

Yep, here we go (again)...
I would like to mention (again) the Tau Empire was not even around then. So your Astartes Legion has nothing to march their crusade against

Actually I was just answering the question about the Tau confronting the Pre-Heresy Imperium.