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Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
When GW repeats something multiple times in its printed material it is fact enough for 40k purposes. Especially since GW doesn't print books like Star Wars has with all the Technical and Physical specifications for all species from an objective point of view and then also shows what the In-universe view is from the different factions.
When GW says something many times, even if they say its "speculation", without contradiction it becomes entrentched as canon. It is heavily implied by existing fluff that the Etherials control the Tau with Pheromones and there is nothing to the contrary, ergo it must be assumed it is true.
40k has a very loose definition of what is fact, therefore even circumstantial and speculative evidence must be treated as completely solid, because there is no such thing as "solid" evidence for anything in the 40k universe.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Clearly everyone is missing the point here. Obviously Etherials exert PSYCHIC control over the Tau because it is mentioned in the book. Sure, they mention pheromones, but why focus on that? I'm going to throw in my hat for Psychic powers.
/sarcasm
Also, Farsight left after his Etherial died (I believe later fluff gives a bit of a gap between loss of etherials, gaining of Dawn Blade, and leaving the Empire). Perhaps he has convinced his people that they are ACTUALLY on a long range recon/protection mission. With only their beloved commander for fact checking and without an Etherial, they have to take his word for it. Perhaps he lies to them and tells them that the Empire has opted not to send any further Etherials because they don't want to risk any of them.
I like the idea of the Farsight enclave including all the Grimdark that people want to ascribe to the Tau, and leaving the Empire itself to be all bright and shiney and hopeful.
Full of Female firewarriors.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grey Templar wrote:When GW repeats something multiple times in its printed material it is fact enough for 40k purposes. Especially since GW doesn't print books like Star Wars has with all the Technical and Physical specifications for all species from an objective point of view and then also shows what the In-universe view is from the different factions.
When GW says something many times, even if they say its "speculation", without contradiction it becomes entrentched as canon. It is heavily implied by existing fluff that the Etherials control the Tau with Pheromones and there is nothing to the contrary, ergo it must be assumed it is true.
40k has a very loose definition of what is fact, therefore even circumstantial and speculative evidence must be treated as completely solid, because there is no such thing as "solid" evidence for anything in the 40k universe.
GW has also stated a number of times that the Chaos Space Marines believe that the Emperor is a liar and wants to enslave all of humanity.
The fluff also says that the Emperor is a God.
The Fluff also says that, according to the IG, Orks can't track motion, so that if you stay very still, the orks won't see you.
Is any of that true? No, it's all stuff characters within the universe believe. Is everything everyone believes true? I can't believe why people are being so rampantly obtuse about this. It's starting to look like /r atheism in here.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/08 01:41:38
Therion wrote:
6th edition lands on June 23rd!
Good news. This is the best time in the hobby. Full of promise. GW lets us down each time and we know it but secretly we're hoping that this is the edition that GW gives us a balanced game that can also be played competitively at tournaments. I'm loving it.
Kroothawk wrote:Summary. He says "The pheromone control is a given", because one Imperial narrator speculates, pheromone control is one of two possible explanations. And he is unwilling to provide any other source to support his claim.
BTW I am not aware of any proof or indication in any BL Tau novel, that there is something like pheromone control actually happening.
1) Unwilling? Or stuck with a lot of localized sources and looking at the flag there maybe those are not in english?
2) One narrator? Maybe the point was GW , this company called GamesWorkshop, the one writing what we call background and may use here, Published this idea of a "pheromone based control" not once, not twice but multiple times? Heard of consistency ?
3) BTW, tyranids have their background shown from a non-tyranid perspective 100%. Do you call all of it false because its not from a tyranid perspective? Want to wait for a Tyranid BL novel, so you "know" what is true?
4) BL tau novel...... Is there one? Last time I have seen a novel written by a person who wrote codices including Tau it was deemed "invalid" because it didn't float the boat of certain people....
Mentlegen324 wrote:
So your proof of pheromones is that he can't disprove them?
Can he?
I doubt it. There may be a new chance in their next codex. Until then, I will consider the possibility of a pheromone based control as existant, contrary to his claim it doesn't exist at all.
It is an option for GW to use, something they may or may not expand upon.
Mentlegen324 wrote:
If we were to believe everything BL writters put in their novels as absolute proof, Space Marines would be running around with Multilasers, Avatars/Daemon Princes/Greater daemons would be extremely weak if a Marine character is nearby, Black Templars could spit acid despite Imperial Fist successors not being able to do it Etc. There are many examples of things writers have got wrong or made up just to make the story better - and that does not mean it is true.
It's the same with many pieces of artwork featuring things that haven't been mentioned in fluff or anywhere at all, except for one specific peice of art.
Sure no absolutes.
Still a piece of fluff you can't ignore.
His claim of FFG "confirming" the non-existance of an organ is as weak or worse, he made it up as it lacks any details to find it , as any BL novel. Without a Canon, something we don't need to move as new subject if I dare to ask, we can't "confirm" anything on a level of yes/no.
There is however a level of authority of GW codices some 3rd party work can't compete with IMO.
The one unleashing this idea of a pheromone based control was GW themselves. Was also GW who kept it across publications in their own line of 40k products. Thus it is less likely to suffer from being artistic license of an author just to improve a story. I'll answer your breakdown of sources and we will see if I get it across.
Mentlegen324 wrote:
Several places are against the idea of pheromones. Several are for it.
So as proof for the pheromones we have:
- Xenology
- Multiple BL novels (Unsure as to the Exact names - if someone could tell me which ones they are that would be great)
- A line in the Codex
- xenology. Has been provided in this thread. I don't own it, but I consider it as a source based upon the first incarnation of Tau background.
- BL novels. Especially one from McNeill, who was involved in creating the Tau too. Most BL books may not count in Kroothawks world of "its all bolterporn if marines are inside" tough. I consider it a valid counter to the FFG stuff he mentioned but didn't provide correctly.
- lines in release articles, codices, etc. I consider this valid as its from GW themselves.
Mentlegen324 wrote:
Against it we have:
- Xenology makes several 'mistakes' - One being the Ethereal having feet, when there is nothing to suggest why - or there being any reason why - Female Ethereals would have feet with toes when Fire caste, Air caste Males, and Male ethereals all have hooves. Xenology also suggests the organ looks just like something the Inquisitor saw earlier, implying that it was the same as the Qo'orl pheromone organ he dissected earlier in the book.
Not sure if mistake or just a bad interpretation of the original source of inspiration. I'd guess first Tau release.
Plus toes are not so far away from hooves as many seem to think.
Original source of the design of Tau "feet" : White Dwarf october 2001. Page 26.
Interview with Jes goodwin about the kit design.
Beware. Non-english text ahead. Advance with caution...
Spoiler:
Wir stellten sehr früh fest das Tau aufgrund ihres humanoiden aussehens nicht wie ausserirdische wirkten. Wir lösten diese problem, indem wir ihre Hände auf drei finger und einen Daumen reduzierten. Da die designer sie als Volk entwickelt hatten, das Wüstenregionen bevorzugt, gaben wir ihnen auch zehen, wie Kamele sie haben. Das trug noch zu ihrer außerirdischen Ausstrahlung bei.
....ich konnte zb mechanische versionen der kamelzehigen füße kreiren, eine idee die mir erst später während des Projekts kam.
...
( insert Tau suits here )
....
Sie waren offensichtlich von Animes und Mangas beeinflusst, aber wir versuchten uns nicht zu sehr auf eine bestimmte inspirationsquelle zu konzentrieren.
Jes confirms the feet of the Tau are inspired by the feet of Camels. This may help the feet debate.
White Dwarf October 2001, page 28
index xenos: Tau
Beware. Non-english text ahead. Advance with caution...
Spoiler:
Tau besitzen keine externen geruchsorgane, diese befinden sich vielmehr an der innenseite ihres rachenraumes und sind über kurze distanz wesentlich empfindlicher als die des menschen. Ein Tau kann daher die Luft mit seiner zunge schmecken und zu seinen geruchsorganen weiterleiten.
Die letzte kaste ist zugleich die mysteriöseste. die gesichtszüge ihrer angehörigen zeichnen sich durch dieselbe flache, konturlose form aus, in der mitte ihrer stirn erhebt sich jedoch ein diamantförmiger knochenvorsprung. Der zweck dieses auswuchses, falls er einen besitzt ist unbekannt, und trotz größter anstrengungen war es den dienern der inquisition bisher nicht möglich den körper eines sogenannten himmlischen, für weitere studien sicherzustellen.
The diamond-shaped "feature" is mentioned at release. May have been changed later but xenology seems to use this ass basis of the illustration shown.
White Dwarf october 2001, page 32
Etherals and o'shovah
Beware. Non-english text ahead. Advance with caution...
Spoiler:
Das Tau wort für diese kaste bedeutet in der übersetzung himmlisch oder göttlich und stammt von den mysteriösen individuen, von denen man annimmt dass sie in der verbotenen stadt auf T'au leben.
Sie sind die herrscher des Tau imperiums, doch worauf ihre autorität beruht, ist ein ungelöstes rätsel. Es wird vermutet das sie es waren die in der vergangenheit die zerstrittenen gegneinander kämpfenden stämme der Tau geeint haben, auch wenn einzelheiten dazu bisher unbekannt sind. Tatsache ist, das jeder Tau, der bisher zu den himmlischen befragt wurde, dieses thema in mysterien und legenden gehüllt hat, so dass es unmöglich ist zu bestimmen, was wahrheiten und was mythos ist.
Einige mitglieder des adeptus mechanicus sind der auffassung, das die himmlischen eine form latenter psionischer kontrolle oder eine angeborene pheromonbasierte macht besitzen, durch die sie über die anderen Tau herrschen.
O'shovah führte nach Arkunasha seinen kampf gegen die orks fort und half bei der zerschlagung zweier weiterer ork waaaghs.
Seine feuerkrieger waren außerdem eines der bollwerke, die die imperialen truppen während des damokles kreuzzuges aufhielten und zählten zu den ersten die anschließend die rückeroberung der verlorenen gebiete wieder aufnahmen. Eine der ins Tau imperium zurückgeholten welten war die sogenannte artefaktwelt arthas moloch, wo die Tau gegen einen unidentifizierten gegener kämpften und wo der himmlische der die streitmacht anführte sein ende fand. Unbekümmert von diesem verlust führte O'shovah seine mission ohne die weise führung des himmlischen weiter und zerschmetterte eine ork-invasion, die die grenzen des Tau reiches bedrohte bevor er über diese grenzen hinweg ins unbekannte vorstieß. Einige Tau glauben, das o'shovah im damokles golf, einer für Tau seit langem verbotenen region, eine kolonie errichtet habe, doch ein solcher gedanke würde bedeuten dass o'shovah sich vollständig vom weg der 'Tau abgewandt hätte und nur noch für sich selbst statt für das höhere wohl kämpfte.
The etherals had 2 possible explanations put into their background at first release right there:
- pheromone
- latent psykers
No course set that early.
Farsight left after he lost his etheral at arthas moloch. Then went on into the gulf region to fight orks and not to return.
Arthas moloch is located inside Tau space actually. He didn't turn to get a new etheral....just moved on.
This was also part of their codex ( codex TAU / 2001 ), not just copy&pasted but close.
See here:
Codex Tau , page 9:
etherals
Beware. Non-english text ahead. Advance with caution...
Spoiler:
Es wird angenommen das sie eine art pheromongestützter oder verborgene psychische kontrolle über die anderen kasten ausüben, denn die loyalität der Tau den himmlischen gegenüber ist absolut und unerschütterlich.
In a general overview tone, no narrator involved...
There is a story close to the release one of o'shovah in the codex at page 51.
Identical timeline. First fight against orks, the move to re-establish colonies. Land on arthas moloch, lose etheral and move on to found colonies outside the empire.
However background has been added and a history but descriptions of Tau and their social network are not part of it.
Nothing about their feet or boobs or breeding.....
Codex TAU empire is mostly a copy paste effort of codex tau.
See etherals at page 9,
o'shovah at page 44/45 receives a few addtional bits, like ruins at arthas moloch of a pre-human civilization where he lost his etherals but it stays in the same order of events: artefact world, loss of etherals, leave empire.
Mentlegen324 wrote:
- Farsight does not support this. His Ethereal died, and he found the dawn blade. It was not as simple as his Ethereal died, so he abanonded the Empire. Lexicanum also states fought in the Damocles Crusade after his Ethereal died, and then after that decided to abandon the Empire. I'm unsure if this is true though, as i cannot find a source for this.
Generally, the english variant of lexi has some issues. You can't find the 'differently interpreted' story you seem to have read in german.
Its a wiki, and as this not 100% protected from mistakes. See sources used above to retrieve the story as provided by GW.
Mentlegen324 wrote:
- Black library writers make up what they think fits their story most.
So everything is false if found in a BL publication? Really broad statement here...
How do you sort it? Personal preference? Then we can just close this and consider it "true" and "false" at the same time as taste may vary..
Mentlegen324 wrote:
- The line in the Codex is speculation by the Imperium. They do not believe the Tau would cooperate through choice, and think there must be some reason why. The other reason for this, is that without some sort of hint of a secret, the Tau would be a quite bland army to play. Same thing with Vespid mind control hints.
Bland or not, its not a statement made by a character.
The etherals show up suddenly, the Tau show synthetic aminos and follow without question.
Consider even necrons had to program loyality and they are stuck in artificial bodies ,so its believable a absolute isn't natural.
IDK why it has to be without any sort of enhanced influence of etherals based on more than nice words for Tau.
If everybody got dissent, a secret isn't bad to have. Instead of a "choice" which is none as "choice" means more than 1 option.
Mentlegen324 wrote:
- The actual line in the Codex is " It is speculated that they exert some kind of pheromone based or latent psychic control over the other castes". This suggests that there is little evidance, otherwise they would know if it was Pheromones or Psychic control instead of not suggesting it could be either one.
This line is
Mentlegen324 wrote:
- Deathwatch: Rites of Battle has a captured Ethereal who does not have the Diamond organ.
Pic? page number? link?
May be as "true" or "false" as BL.
Mentlegen324 wrote:
- None of the Ethereal models support the existance of the diamond organ. Aun'shi and the old Etheral model do have some sort of round object in the slit in their forehead, but it is more likely that this is just decoration, as Aun'Va's guard on page 43 has something similar, and there are several other peices of art in the codex of non-Ethereal Tau with similar things, and just as many of Ethereals without them.
Its a structure hidden beneath the slit Youre aware they got no external organ to smell? But they have one and its pretty potent. Guess where?
Mentlegen324 wrote:
It's the same with Tau Females (Which is what we are meant to be discussing). Several places suggest they look the same as male Tau, yet Shadowsun suggests this is not the case. It is more likely that to Imperials they look the same and they are just unable to tell them appart, or it's more likely that they just don't want to. Shadowsun shows that Tau females do not look the same as males, yet some writers still say they are. It's their story, and unless it is completely stupid and ruins the setting, they can put what they like in them.
Aliens are most likely hard to identify.
Shadowsun is a model. Not a naked one, so the debate of the original subject can't be resolved.
In BL terms , Tau genders smell differently. A good choice if you believe in their abilities and the influence of pheromones.
Not of interest or maybe incorrect if you subscribe to Kroothawks club of disbelievers of anything not written from a Tau perspective.
Mentlegen324 wrote:
There's evidence to support both theories, but they are just that - theories (although there is more to suggest they don't have pheromones). But until GW outright states in a direct, offical publication that is how they will stay.
Mentlegen324 wrote: Saying pheromones are fact (like you said earlier) and that everyone who says they aren't is wrong, is wrong.
I said its safe to assume the fluff piece of pheromones is true after so many years and publications where GW still ran with it and I stick with my point of deniyng the possibility of it based upon the way GW showed it to us as wrong.
Do you prefer they say the option of latent psi is "true" ? Tau as puppets of psykers is worse than a Tau "guided" by pheromones to consider the points presented by an etheral are so good its nigh unbelievable how lucky s/he is to have that wise leader to show it the right path.
Hints kept over 10 years.
Hints given from start.
Now you are just making random things up such as the Diamond Organ being hidden beneath the slit when no where says that.
I'll say it again. There is no evidance at all that pheromones are true.
Xenology is not evidance - It get's things wrong, and is a BL publication so they put what they want in it to make it look good.
Novels are not evidance - Writters put what they want in to make the story better.
The line in the Codex is not evidance - States it's speculation by the Imperium. Same with the White Dwarf quote.
Can you find anywhere, in a direct non-Black Library publication, proof of pheremones or the Diamond shaped organ from xenology, existing anywhere - that does not say it is speculation?
Grey Templar wrote:When GW repeats something multiple times in its printed material it is fact enough for 40k purposes. Especially since GW doesn't print books like Star Wars has with all the Technical and Physical specifications for all species from an objective point of view and then also shows what the In-universe view is from the different factions.
When GW says something many times, even if they say its "speculation", without contradiction it becomes entrentched as canon. It is heavily implied by existing fluff that the Etherials control the Tau with Pheromones and there is nothing to the contrary, ergo it must be assumed it is true.
40k has a very loose definition of what is fact, therefore even circumstantial and speculative evidence must be treated as completely solid, because there is no such thing as "solid" evidence for anything in the 40k universe.
That's not how it works at all. The GW publications you speak of all state is speculation by the Imperium, or are BL publications which writters put whatever they like in.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2012/01/08 11:41:24
Kroothawk wrote:@1hadhq: you must be desperate if you even try to put manipulated false content into my posts hoping noone scrolls up to see the original post. If you try to bend facts even with short posts here, we can estimate how you deal with Codex and BL novel information. Still, can't cloud the fact that you made a wrong statement on pheromone control.
1.) As quoted, you call pheromone control a given. Not a possibility or a speculation, but a given. That is absolute. And all you can give us is the "speculation" in the Codex which also includes psychic control as the other option. The German GW article specifies that this speculation is "by some members of the Adeptus Mechanicus". So mechanics of a Faschist empire that repair engines by singing prayers are presented as experts on how a peaceful non-violent rule in a Xeno society works. This has been a running gag from the start.
2.) Camels are "cloven hoofed animals" or in other words "even-toed ungulate", so the Tau "feet" are indeed hooves split in the middle. And Xenology shows them wrong.
3.) There is only one Tau NPC in Rites of Battle, easy to find. Your accusations disqualify your argumentations. And the book "Savage Scars", which I called bolter-porn, characterizes Tau only in two ways: Tau that are splattered by ranged fire and Tau that are cut to pieces in close combat, so don't expect any deeper background information in this one.
WTF?
I for one, think someone who had his posts edited by mods because the content wasn't compliant with the expected behaviour at dakka should rethink his claims.
There was nothing altered in your posts. I'd suggest to refrain from black-mailing me.
1) You recieved an absolute to oppose your own absolute.
But it seems again that all you got to support your absolute is to diss the mechanicum. Wonder why youre getting nowhere with this?
Maybe once in while it may help to accept the publications as intended, without second-guessing GW.
Lets see...Mcneill chose the "latent psychic" route in one of his books... this enables demonic possession...oh the possibilities......
Not where you wanted to go?
But, there is no 3rd option. Because GW supplied none. Just 2, spelled out and consistently used.
2) Tau are divided in sub-species. To use Sub-species allows differencies. Most of the features are part of the release articles.
The feet for example are a general idea, it must not be one design to run with for all castes.
Codices don't provide the neccessary info to resolve the subject "females" so why should there be a "correct" answer how the etherals operate? Because of the "canon"?
Maybe a single illustration cannot devaluate the content of a book? If it could, most of GW's publications couldn't stand as mistakes are
possible. And there is the threat of a new release = new and/or altered background as it happened to some factions in 40k.
I for one deem it good to know where the designers took inspiration from, but I wouln't go so far to assume bits from anime and manga guarantee boobs for example.
3) to disqualify may be what you hope for. So stay in your woodwork, to hop out and cry foul if thats your contribution.
BTW the oh so incompetent mechs achieve their goals without chanting and hopping and such in Savage Scars.
You missed it. Like you missed the chance to correct the story of farsight. Could be a pattern...
Grey Templar wrote:When GW repeats something multiple times in its printed material it is fact enough for 40k purposes. Especially since GW doesn't print books like Star Wars has with all the Technical and Physical specifications for all species from an objective point of view and then also shows what the In-universe view is from the different factions.
When GW says something many times, even if they say its "speculation", without contradiction it becomes entrentched as canon. It is heavily implied by existing fluff that the Etherials control the Tau with Pheromones and there is nothing to the contrary, ergo it must be assumed it is true.
40k has a very loose definition of what is fact, therefore even circumstantial and speculative evidence must be treated as completely solid, because there is no such thing as "solid" evidence for anything in the 40k universe.
Exactly.
Nagashek wrote:Clearly everyone is missing the point here. Obviously Etherials exert PSYCHIC control over the Tau because it is mentioned in the book. Sure, they mention pheromones, but why focus on that? I'm going to throw in my hat for Psychic powers.
/sarcasm
Rightly so. Etherals as psykers would open the path for choas tau....and we tried to stay off that course.
Nagashek wrote:
GW has also stated a number of times that the Chaos Space Marines believe that the Emperor is a liar and wants to enslave all of humanity.
The fluff also says that the Emperor is a God.
The Fluff also says that, according to the IG, Orks can't track motion, so that if you stay very still, the orks won't see you.
Is any of that true? No, it's all stuff characters within the universe believe. Is everything everyone believes true? I can't believe why people are being so rampantly obtuse about this. It's starting to look like /r atheism in here.
The believes of CSM have a counterpart, the entry of the etherals have no such thing.
The view of Emperor = God. Has the same answer as CSM think he lied to them.. Countered by other fluff.
The IIUP is meant as propaganda, so your point how the IG views orks isn't part of the codices but secondary material clearly marked for what it is intended to show. Really want to use a product intended to entertain at the same level as background written to give a general overview, like the entries in the Tau codex do?
So no, a description of a Tau caste in a TAu codex isn't from a characters perspective at all if you look up the page it is on.
Mentlegen324 wrote:
Now you are just making random things up such as the Diamond Organ being hidden beneath the slit when no where says that.
I'll say it again. There is no evidance at all that pheromones are true.
Xenology is not evidance - It get's things wrong, and is a BL publication so they put what they want in it to make it look good.
Novels are not evidance - Writters put what they want in to make the story better.
The line in the Codex is not evidance - States it's speculation by the Imperium. Same with the White Dwarf quote.
Can you find anywhere, in a direct non-Black Library publication, proof of pheremones or the Diamond shaped organ from xenology, existing anywhere - that does not say it is speculation?
I am making up nothing. Provided sources and added my thougths.
Youare free to choose your own POV.
It does not invalidate anything GW wrote if you disbelieve it.
By your logic, the threat of the tyranids does not exist, since its all speculation of imperials. Funny isn't it?
The majority of fluff will be from a non-xeno perspective. But there is event where a TAu and a Kroot talk about the pheromones. In a codex.
Go search it. I have spent enough time to type these quotes of GW material in and to make sure its a 1:1 copy even when this is most likely to no avail as its in a different tongue. This time, I am not going to provide what anyone willing to back up his view can find. Sorry, I don't feel like wasting a weekend to enlighten the ignorant.
Target locked,ready to fire
In dedicatio imperatum ultra articulo mortis.
H.B.M.C :
We were wrong. It's not the 40k End Times. It's the Trademarkening.
So was the Tenno of WW2 a psychic or emitting pheromones? Because there is obviously no 3rd option why Japanese were absolutely loyal to him.
And if the AdMech speculation is automatically truth (because only Xeno scum denies it), why is one truth obviously false and the other truth obviously true? Roll a dice?
And is everything about Tau in the Uplifting Primer also absolute true?
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Kroothawk wrote:So was the Tenno of WW2 a psychic or emitting pheromones? Because there is obviously no 3rd option why Japanese were absolutely loyal to him.
And if the AdMech speculation is automatically truth (because only Xeno scum denies it), why is one truth obviously false and the other truth obviously true? Roll a dice?
And is everything about Tau in the Uplifting Primer also absolute true?
The Uplifting Primer is a satirical publication, unlike the novels and Codices, and is just meant for a bit of a laugh over the Imperial Propaganda machine and to show what the Guardsmen know. The Pheromone fluff comes from what is written as a scientific publication, from an Imperial source because Tau arn't going to be cutting themselves open and talking about whats inside.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Kroothawk wrote:So was the Tenno of WW2 a psychic or emitting pheromones? Because there is obviously no 3rd option why Japanese were absolutely loyal to him.
And if the AdMech speculation is automatically truth (because only Xeno scum denies it), why is one truth obviously false and the other truth obviously true? Roll a dice?
And is everything about Tau in the Uplifting Primer also absolute true?
The Uplifting Primer is a satirical publication, unlike the novels and Codices, and is just meant for a bit of a laugh over the Imperial Propaganda machine and to show what the Guardsmen know. The Pheromone fluff comes from what is written as a scientific publication, from an Imperial source because Tau arn't going to be cutting themselves open and talking about whats inside.
Mark of the Xenos mentions that "The method by which the Ethereals maintain control overtheir species is unknown to the Imperium, and possibly even to those they rule. Several studies have been undertaken, and the Deathwatch is even in the possession of a low-rankedmember of the caste having captured him as his vessel passed through an unclaimed system near Tau-controlled space. Prior to the capture of this specimen, it was assumed that the Ethereals must utilise some unidentifed method of biological,psychic or even pheromone control over the Tau. The Ethereals sport an unidentifed organ in the centre of their foreheads, a smaller version of which is possessed by other castes. It was assumed that this organ must be key to the control effect, yet the specimen captured has been extensively examined and no functioning system has been identifed. Either the captured Ethereal is a deliberate attempt to misdirect the Imperium, or the matter is far more esoteric than had previously been thought. Investigations into this mystery are ongoing." (p.11)
Even Xenology mentions that the purpose of the Diamond shaped organ is unknown. The only support the pheromon theory has is that Tau have a strong sense of smell and that certain parts of an Etheral's head have some similarities to pheromon glands amongst terran Invertebrates. The Inquisitor in Xenology comes to th conclusion that "Results are inconclusive, and the purpose of this organ remains unknown".
What we know is that the Tau somehow tend to regress to some kind of atavistic, feral state without an Etheral to guide them. Pheromones alone, with their severely limited range, cannot explain the Etheral's civilising influence as Flamewing's story shows. He was, aparently quite suddenly, affected by the death of an Aun ( the last Aun on that specific world ) who wasn't even nearby. Unlike Farsight, Flamewing remained loyal to the Tau Empire.
1hadhq wrote:
The majority of fluff will be from a non-xeno perspective. But there is event where a TAu and a Kroot talk about the pheromones. In a codex.
Go search it. I have spent enough time to type these quotes of GW material in and to make sure its a 1:1 copy even when this is most likely to no avail as its in a different tongue. This time, I am not going to provide what anyone willing to back up his view can find. Sorry, I don't feel like wasting a weekend to enlighten the ignorant.
You can't back up what you are saying. The Codex does not state anything about Pheromones other than the line about speculation by the Imperium.
Ignorant? I, and several others, have provided many reasons why all the 'proof' you suggest is wrong yet everything that has been said you have completely ignored and acted as if they don't exist.
I'll say it again, for a third time.
Xenology does not support the pheromones idea. The Tau Codex does not support the pheromones idea. Black Library Novels do not support the pheromones idea. Many places provide evidance AGAINST the idea. There is no proof at all to support it, other than it is being speculated by the Imperium - who also suspect psychic control.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2012/01/08 18:03:55
I like that Tau girl pile....
Now that is the Tau I love, not conquering aliens but peaceful aliens...
For Emperor and Imperium!!!! None shall stand against the Crusade of the Righteous!!! Kanluwen wrote: "I like the Tau. I just don't like people misconstruing things to say that it means that they're somehow a huge galactic threat. They're not. They're a threat to the Imperium of Man like sharks are a threat to the US Army."
"Pain is temporary, honor is forever" Emperor of Mankind:
"The day I have a sit-down with a pansy elf, magic mushroom, or commie frog is the day I put a bolt shell in my head."
in your name it shall be done" My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/2SSSR2
Viersche wrote:
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
the Emperor might be the greatest psyker that ever lived, but he doesn't have the specialized training that a Grey Knight has. Also he doesn't have a Grey Knight's unshakable faith in the Emperor.
The Emperor doesn't have a GKs unshakable faith in the Emperor which is....basically himself?
Ronin wrote:
"Brother Coa (and the OP Tadashi) is like, the biggest IoM fanboy I can think of here. It's like he IS from the Imperium, sent back in time and across dimensions."
Neither pheromones or psychic control really wash from a logic perspective allow me to elaborate....
Tau personell are spread across planets, space stations, star craft, military bases, observation posts, forward recon units and even merchant expiditions, all of these divided by vast spaces of non pheromone friendly enviroments (space), and if the psychic control is that powerful and wide spread then it would likely register in the warp or some other psychic sensitive medium.
So this means that there would have to be a Ethereal with every unit, ship, expidition etc, regardless of size just to keep them in line and doing the greater good line.
And fluff says the Ethereals are very rare with only a few on each planet or accompanying a military op, so those don't wash, the other alternative is that once exposed to the "pheromones/psyker control " they are always under its sway so as to maintain this "control" and that does not wash as in the Farsight senario, and how the Tau react when the even hear about a Ethereal dying (such as on the Taros campaign where after losing their Ethereal to a spec op operation they became vicious on a planet wide campaign)
Even the FFG book "Mark of the Xenos" states that the Ethereal influance may be something even more esoteric than first thought.
But this is just my thoughts on it, this is 40k and everyone has their own tinfoil hat theories.
Codex says, Imperium doesn't know. Xenology says: Imperium doesn't know. Deathwatch RPG says, the Imperium doesn't know. Conclusion: pheromone control must be true then
Actually, the answer is quite simple. The 4 castes know from historic experience, that they almost killed themselves in a bloody civil war. The Codex is explicit that all Tau fear the old Mont'au times. This fear is a strong motivation, like the Craftworld Eldar society is built around the fear of Slaanesh. The ethereals stopped the self destruction, for what all tau are grateful. The ethereals organized the society into castes with certain rules, and the Tau accepted that the special role of ethereals is necessary to maintain the stability among the castes and the survival of the race. It helps that the ethereals give wise and rational advice rather than subjugate the other castes by force, so making loyalty easy. That's why you find so many references to the ethereals' wisdom (also in BL novels) and to Mont'au , but only one reference to possible psychic or pheromonic control. Compare the ethereals to Buddhist monks in Southeast Asia, highly respected for their wisdom, but usually outside normal social hierarchies. Maybe add some Tibet to the mix, where the Buddhist monks have been the ruling class. And Buddhist thinking is totally alien to the standard thinking of a faschist regime (like the IoM). Also be aware that loyalty to the leaders (Hindu caste system, Tenno cult Japanese samurai code, Chinese Confucianism, Tibet) and society>individual is common in East/Southeast Asia.
TL;DR: The loyalty is a culture thing, inspired by Asian culture.
Proof if presented that Tau Female Fire Warriors exist.
Thread continues on for 8 pages. What.
"The Imperium is nothing if not willing to go to any lengths necessary. So the Trekkies are zipping around at warp speed taking small chucks out of an nigh-on infinite amount of ships, with the Imperium being unable to strike back. feth it, says central command, and detonates every vortex warhead in the fleet, plunging the entire sector into the Warp. Enjoy tentacle-rape, Kirk, we know Sulu will." -Terminus
"This great fortress was a gift to the Blood Ravens from the legendary Imperial Fists. When asked about it Chapter Master Pugh was reported to say: "THEY TOOK WHAT!?""
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:Neither pheromones or psychic control really wash from a logic perspective allow me to elaborate....
Tau personell are spread across planets, space stations, star craft, military bases, observation posts, forward recon units and even merchant expiditions, all of these divided by vast spaces of non pheromone friendly enviroments (space), and if the psychic control is that powerful and wide spread then it would likely register in the warp or some other psychic sensitive medium.
So this means that there would have to be a Ethereal with every unit, ship, expidition etc, regardless of size just to keep them in line and doing the greater good line.
And fluff says the Ethereals are very rare with only a few on each planet or accompanying a military op, so those don't wash, the other alternative is that once exposed to the "pheromones/psyker control " they are always under its sway so as to maintain this "control" and that does not wash as in the Farsight senario, and how the Tau react when the even hear about a Ethereal dying (such as on the Taros campaign where after losing their Ethereal to a spec op operation they became vicious on a planet wide campaign)
Even the FFG book "Mark of the Xenos" states that the Ethereal influance may be something even more esoteric than first thought.
But this is just my thoughts on it, this is 40k and everyone has their own tinfoil hat theories.
It works if you assume the pheremone effect gives the Ethereals a form of super charisma which causes the rest of the Tau to admire their thoughts and principles whether they are there are not.
Once the Tau have accepted the guiding principles of the Ethereals, they tend to follow them -- probably because they are successful -- even if the Ethereals aren't around to enforce compliance.
Kroothawk wrote:Codex says, Imperium doesn't know. Xenology says: Imperium doesn't know. Deathwatch RPG says, the Imperium doesn't know. Conclusion: pheromone control must be true then
Am I sensing sarcasm, because it sounds believable to me...
If the Ordo Xenos saw this thread Earth would be so, SO, SO fethed!
"The Imperium is nothing if not willing to go to any lengths necessary. So the Trekkies are zipping around at warp speed taking small chucks out of an nigh-on infinite amount of ships, with the Imperium being unable to strike back. feth it, says central command, and detonates every vortex warhead in the fleet, plunging the entire sector into the Warp. Enjoy tentacle-rape, Kirk, we know Sulu will." -Terminus
"This great fortress was a gift to the Blood Ravens from the legendary Imperial Fists. When asked about it Chapter Master Pugh was reported to say: "THEY TOOK WHAT!?""
Alexzandvar wrote:If the Ordo Xenos saw this thread Earth would be so, SO, SO fethed!
Holy Terra? Never...
But still, this thread REEKs of foul Xenos-Slaneesh worshiping HERESY.
"The Imperium is nothing if not willing to go to any lengths necessary. So the Trekkies are zipping around at warp speed taking small chucks out of an nigh-on infinite amount of ships, with the Imperium being unable to strike back. feth it, says central command, and detonates every vortex warhead in the fleet, plunging the entire sector into the Warp. Enjoy tentacle-rape, Kirk, we know Sulu will." -Terminus
"This great fortress was a gift to the Blood Ravens from the legendary Imperial Fists. When asked about it Chapter Master Pugh was reported to say: "THEY TOOK WHAT!?""
Alexzandvar wrote:If the Ordo Xenos saw this thread Earth would be so, SO, SO fethed!
Holy Terra? Never...
But still, this thread REEKs of foul Xenos-Slaneesh worshiping HERESY.
Don't worry, we have more Sister hot art then for any xenos.
They would approve that.
For Emperor and Imperium!!!! None shall stand against the Crusade of the Righteous!!! Kanluwen wrote: "I like the Tau. I just don't like people misconstruing things to say that it means that they're somehow a huge galactic threat. They're not. They're a threat to the Imperium of Man like sharks are a threat to the US Army."
"Pain is temporary, honor is forever" Emperor of Mankind:
"The day I have a sit-down with a pansy elf, magic mushroom, or commie frog is the day I put a bolt shell in my head."
in your name it shall be done" My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/2SSSR2
Viersche wrote:
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
the Emperor might be the greatest psyker that ever lived, but he doesn't have the specialized training that a Grey Knight has. Also he doesn't have a Grey Knight's unshakable faith in the Emperor.
The Emperor doesn't have a GKs unshakable faith in the Emperor which is....basically himself?
Ronin wrote:
"Brother Coa (and the OP Tadashi) is like, the biggest IoM fanboy I can think of here. It's like he IS from the Imperium, sent back in time and across dimensions."
For Emperor and Imperium!!!! None shall stand against the Crusade of the Righteous!!! Kanluwen wrote: "I like the Tau. I just don't like people misconstruing things to say that it means that they're somehow a huge galactic threat. They're not. They're a threat to the Imperium of Man like sharks are a threat to the US Army."
"Pain is temporary, honor is forever" Emperor of Mankind:
"The day I have a sit-down with a pansy elf, magic mushroom, or commie frog is the day I put a bolt shell in my head."
in your name it shall be done" My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/2SSSR2
Viersche wrote:
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
the Emperor might be the greatest psyker that ever lived, but he doesn't have the specialized training that a Grey Knight has. Also he doesn't have a Grey Knight's unshakable faith in the Emperor.
The Emperor doesn't have a GKs unshakable faith in the Emperor which is....basically himself?
Ronin wrote:
"Brother Coa (and the OP Tadashi) is like, the biggest IoM fanboy I can think of here. It's like he IS from the Imperium, sent back in time and across dimensions."
14000 points 
For Emperor and Imperium!!!! 
in your name it shall be done" 
2000+
Hive Fleet Aquarius 2-1-0
