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Not saying that a 30/06 is a whole lot better now, in fact, bad example, the 5.56mm round, one from the 60s is much worse than it is today, my point is after 38000 years things will be incredibly improved

Andrew1975 wrote:I'm saying that the blue print for the M2 browning and most brownings were laid out in the early 1900s 1911-1919 to be exact depending on model. They have changed little since, including ammunition. 30/06 has not drastically changed since 1908 unless you are using special match grade or something is my point.

And for those thinking about the 7.62x54R used in Russian sniper rifles to this day... the Tzar was about to discontinue the round as obsolete in the 1890s. ;-)

Thing is, while gun manufacturers like inventing new calibers people like to stick with those that work well enough. Every new caliber is a solution is search of a problem, and we already have plenty of proven solutions on the market.

Well, a lucky guardsman with a rusty bayonet can kill one in game. A 3+ ain't all that.

30 men with flashlights at close range should be enough.

A Nuke.

TheFatElf wrote:A Nuke.

Have you seen the beginning of the original Space Marine trailer?

vodo40k wrote:

TheFatElf wrote:A Nuke.

Have you seen the beginning of the original Space Marine trailer?

That was far away, he meant a nuke hitting Marine's armor and explodes.

But like my friend said: If you want to kill a Space Marine tie him up to the star, wait for a Star to became Supernova and then collect the peaces.

Most guns could, if you were very lucky with them.
Hell, aim for his eye-lenses with a rifle and you may get a bullet through into his brain.
"Hard to kill" doesn't mean "Invincible."

A pointy stick, if you knew where to aim.

Most anti tank would and so would most heavy bomb payloads.

Durza wrote:A pointy stick, if you knew where to aim.

No, that's how you kill Eldar Grav Tanks.

Brother Coa wrote:

vodo40k wrote:

TheFatElf wrote:A Nuke.

Have you seen the beginning of the original Space Marine trailer?

That was far away, he meant a nuke hitting Marine's armor and explodes.

But like my friend said: If you want to kill a Space Marine tie him up to the star, wait for a Star to became Supernova and then collect the peaces.

Then yes, no question.

I dunno, I think people are giving Space Marines a bit too much credit... They're tough but they're not gods. Depending on what fluff you go with they're capable of wounds through the torso you can see through, or they die from a lucky shot in the soft armor of their joints. A large caliber rifle with a trained marksman, aiming at soft armor like the neck or eyes I feel would be sufficient.

AtariAssasin wrote:I dunno, I think people are giving Space Marines a bit too much credit... They're tough but they're not gods. Depending on what fluff you go with they're capable of wounds through the torso you can see through, or they die from a lucky shot in the soft armor of their joints. A large caliber rifle with a trained marksman, aiming at soft armor like the neck or eyes I feel would be sufficient.

I also think that people are giving them way too much. Their armor is strong, yes I'll conceed that point. But many of you are saying that weapons that can shoot through modern tanks, or go through four people at once would just bounce off/ stun one of these guys. Think about it, if they couldn't be killed by direct 50 cal shots, tank rounds, or a myriad of other lethal modern weapons; then what hope does any army have of defeating a space marine squad, let alone an entire company.

If a bolt pistol can explode the head of a helmated astartes, then a 40mm grenade can surely do the same.

And by the way, a rifle can only be improved so much before it reaches its maximum potential. Which I would argue we are close to today.

I am not sure about the maxing out rifles but maybe moving to new designs of guns and ammo. Originally it was thought snipers had reached their max range but Barret developed a round to have the same punch but at almost twice the distance accurately. I think it all depends on the creativity of the gun developers. But one thing is certain, we are much better at killing things then protecting them ie body armor etc.

The problems in killing a Marine are less the armour (bolters can penetrate and they aren't exactly heavy weapons and with multiple hits can penetrate or injure armour if the shots are tightly spaced and at close enough range.) in that the shot has to be definitely incapacitating or lethal. With their pain tolerance, organ redundancy, regenerative abilities and rapid clotting of wounds they're very hard to decisively injure by a good many weapons. Armour makes that harder as it (and the fused ribs and the black carapace) cover the vital organs. Add to that Space Marine speed and reactions (which makes it hard to draw a bead on them) and any available cover and they can be very hard to kill. On top of that, they often deploy in ways that protect them until they are close up with the enemy (Thunderhawk, drop pod, or Rhino) which can reduce the time the enemy has to engage them.

In theory any weapon can kill a marine if it hits in the right location and in the right way (pointy sticks, primitive weapons, etc. - it's all happened at least once - even the pointy stick even if it was a wooden spear.) but the difference is it relied on hitting a weak spot generaly in the head/neck region (which is about the only 'guaranteed kill' zone if you can hit it) and a good deal of luck. In most cases a Marine isn't going to just sit still and let the enemy pick them off. But it tells us that if you aim right you could probably kill them with any weapon (EG shooting for the neck) - its only a matter of number of shots/kind of gun and ammo. Volume of fire can of course do it too, but the armour/agility/redudancy makes that the less efficient road, especially if the Marine starts in close. (more likely is you incapacitate them by crippling the legs or something, although even then the Marine is going to crawl his way towards you if he's dead set on killing you.)

Let's see, the average trained man with a bayonetted assault rifle regardless of actual caliber...
Let's assume an assault rifle is like the Autogun.
The Autogun, according to *several* Forgeworld books and some Black Library fluff, is a very loose category for a wide range of weapons between 5.56 brass and heavy-caliber stubbers with HEAP rounds. And they are ultimately just equivalent to Lasguns stat-wise.
That means that a trained modern soldier has something equivalent to the chance of a guardsman to take down the Marine. So a roughly 5.5% chance per bullet salvo/bayonet stab of incapacitating a Space Marine. After the incapacitation, obviously, a kill is easy to confirm.

Where does 5.5% come from?
Let's assume there is a weapon that always kills every man and never misses. It has a 100% chance of killing a Marine.
A trained guardsman with a lasgun has a 50% chance of hitting per salvo, so ignoring fortitude and armor he has a 50% chance.
Now, a lasgun has a one in three chance of actually doing something worthwhile. That 50% chance is now 16.66%, or a 1/6 chance.
Now, the armor has a two thirds chance to stop it (that's your super-invulnerable ultra-OP tank armor of fanboy doom, people, a 66.66% chance of stopping the average bullet). The 1/6 chance becomes a 1/18 chance.
100/18=5.55555~, round to 5.5.

We know that small arms fire CAN and WILL wound and kill a Space Marine from various forms of fluff, and the actual games (which one? ALL OF THEM!), but this USUALLY requires very large numbers. Usually. We can find fluff examples in both directions, so let's try to assume that the fluff is meant to SOMEWHAT follow what we see in the various games. Seems more sane that way.


There you have it. No ultra-invulnerable mega-dega-super-duper-special armor that laughs at your puny rifles and lets the Marine pull his willy out and wave it at your silly mortar strikes.
Just keep shooting and you'll eventually hit something vital enough that the Marine drops and is unable to keep fighting. The kill is easy to do after that.

People really do overestimate marine armor. Guess it's to be expected, with how GW themselves seem to want to have their cake and eat it.
But when every game, the only movie, and a whole lot of fluff all show that small arms fire will suffice?
I have to assume that small arms fire will, in fact, suffice.

Ignatius wrote:

AtariAssasin wrote:I dunno, I think people are giving Space Marines a bit too much credit... They're tough but they're not gods. Depending on what fluff you go with they're capable of wounds through the torso you can see through, or they die from a lucky shot in the soft armor of their joints. A large caliber rifle with a trained marksman, aiming at soft armor like the neck or eyes I feel would be sufficient.

I also think that people are giving them way too much. Their armor is strong, yes I'll conceed that point. But many of you are saying that weapons that can shoot through modern tanks, or go through four people at once would just bounce off/ stun one of these guys. Think about it, if they couldn't be killed by direct 50 cal shots, tank rounds, or a myriad of other lethal modern weapons; then what hope does any army have of defeating a space marine squad, let alone an entire company.

If a bolt pistol can explode the head of a helmated astartes, then a 40mm grenade can surely do the same.

And by the way, a rifle can only be improved so much before it reaches its maximum potential. Which I would argue we are close to today.

Science fiction power armor goes a long way. Ceramite is pretty stout stuff. It's bad enough to deflect gauss weaponry at times.

And yet ork weapons, which are essentially just extreme-caliber versions of the guns of today, can and do kill Marines all the time.
Hell, even Grot blasters do it on occasion.

Basically, there's altogether too much overestimation in here.

Of course. It's not invincible. That's already been covered.

IronSnake wrote:Of course. It's not invincible. That's already been covered.

Indeed, I'm just saying that some of the assumptions people are making in the thread are pretty impressive. Seems there's enough people saying "that's ridiculous" to balance it out, though.

When shooting down a space marine, there are only 2 effective ways to do it in my opinion. 1 way is just a hail of fire, even a space marine cannot weather hundreds to thousands of bullets, all the weak points will be hit, and he will be incapacitated and eventually killed. The other option is missile weapons. Missiles would be effective because you could fire multiples, the first one to stagger and injure, the second missile to kill. A missile will blow the marine to pieces, a direct hit with a predator will be lethal, it comes from above, destroying the armour and the body inside, shrapnel may be ineffective but shock and explosive damage will kill.

Any weapon given the right opportunity will do the trick.

Hmmm very interesting. considering the training, the surgicly implanted implants and the armour with all is shenaingins, you better make the first shot a good one, because if you dont kill him out right your really just going to have a 8ft tall really pissed off tank trying to kill you. considering space marines can survive the void of space, the crushing depth of the ocean and the loss of half of their face, killing a marine would be harder than what one would expect

redkommando wrote:because if you dont kill him out right your really just going to have a 8ft tall really pissed off tank trying to kill you.

Maybe he'll be alright if he's only challenging GW's 7 feet tall Marines. I heard they aren't quite as invincible as the 8 or 9 feet types in some novels.

If the joints are flexible enough for a very strong human to move, then the joints will shift enough with a pressure wave of an explosion to hurt what's behind them. Soft spots will deform in a pressure wave and injure/kill the space marine.

If any part of the armor is described as "soft" by human standards, then a pressure wave will sufficiently deform it to reach the flesh regardless of its tensile strength.

What about some rounds for the gun of an A-10 Thunderbolt II? That thing is big enough for not needing missiles for taking down tanks...

The GAU 8/A Avenger (the main gun of the A-10 Thunderbolt II) would liquefy a Marine and tear his armor apart like an empty beer can.

I've got to say, I think 40k has always got to 'win' in these sort of discussions. Whether it's Space Marines V The US Marines, or The Imperium V The Federation.

Basically, the 40k universe will (almost) always win out, simply because, it is just that over the top.

The story, the background, the characters, the spaceships, the cities, the heroes and villains, they are just that far out there. And, to be honest, pretty much, that's why many people find it fun.

The only time I've ever really reached the same level of OTTness in a Sci Fi discussion is in a conversation about Dr Who and the Daleks...

This isn't Space Marine vs anyone, this is simply, as stated in the thread title, what modern weapons could kill a Space Marine?