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whigwam wrote:When I was playing 3rd Ed., SC's were allowed but usually came with some stigma. I agree that it's a little ridiculous having (what are supposed to be) historically noteworthy individuals fighting in each and every battle. ("Oh Marneus Calgar and Dante are fighting again! Those crazy Chapter Masters!") It kind of spoils their "specialness."

By the same token I can protest the abundance of Space Marine armies because Space Marines are supposed to be rare in the fluff, there's only supposed to be a million of them in a galaxy full of untold billions of regular humans and aliens alike, but I have a feeling that I'd be told to feth off if I seriously tried to argue with people and tell them the only armies they're allowed to play are Guard and Orks.

I guess it's too much work to just pretend that the special character on the field is someone else? It's really no different from fielding any other unit in a codex, it's nothing more than a statline with a couple of special rules, it doesn't have to be Marneus Calgar going to fight every single battle.

Why do people even care? I didn't realize realism was that damn important in our space game with aliens, gods, and physics-defying/sense-defying technology. It's okay if your super soldier army that's supposedly so rare as to be a myth to most of the Imperium is somehow able to show up and battle every known threat to the galaxy, but the chapter master showing up to every battle is just too much!

Sidstyler wrote:

whigwam wrote:When I was playing 3rd Ed., SC's were allowed but usually came with some stigma. I agree that it's a little ridiculous having (what are supposed to be) historically noteworthy individuals fighting in each and every battle. ("Oh Marneus Calgar and Dante are fighting again! Those crazy Chapter Masters!") It kind of spoils their "specialness."

By the same token I can protest the abundance of Space Marine armies because Space Marines are supposed to be rare in the fluff, there's only supposed to be a million of them in a galaxy full of untold billions of regular humans and aliens alike, but I have a feeling that I'd be told to feth off if I seriously tried to argue with people and tell them the only armies they're allowed to play are Guard and Orks.

I guess it's too much work to just pretend that the special character on the field is someone else? It's really no different from fielding any other unit in a codex, it's nothing more than a statline with a couple of special rules, it doesn't have to be Marneus Calgar going to fight every single battle.

Why do people even care? I didn't realize realism was that damn important in our space game with aliens, gods, and physics-defying/sense-defying technology. It's okay if your super soldier army that's supposedly so rare as to be a myth to most of the Imperium is somehow able to show up and battle every known threat to the galaxy, but the chapter master showing up to every battle is just too much!

There is a considerable difference in scale between a million Space Marines and a handful of Special Characters, but sure. I like a good slippery slope. Grey Knights maybe would've been a better example considering how disproportionally abundant they are lately.

The rest of your response is a little odd considering I went on to say that I often use SC's. It is hard not to in the current environment, which is kind of my point.

Hox wrote:

Blink wrote:IcedAnimal, you aren't the primary demographic for them in that regard. Fact is, the LGS has to purchase the stuff from GW anyway, so they don't lose all that much in that regard.

They have other merchandise to push (Dreadfleet and now the paint set), so they can hold off on the army which will have eventual purchases regardless if they're spur of the moment.

So cool the jets on calling things "terrible" policies and being hyper critical.

Maybe you missed out on something but everyone is pretty pissed at GW for this. Do you know a single company in existence that wont even say a word about a release two weeks away? Its bad publicity for GW and they are losing customers because of it. Pushing dreadfleet and a 300 dollar paint set? I bet there are huge markets for those. Before you decide to put your opinion on everybody else maybe you should read all the posts in the thread you are commenting in. Its people that are willing to sit back and take it that let GW charge 120 dollars for 5 knights.

You don't change anything with your constant whining and moaning. YOU are not a white knight accomplishing anything by complaining on a message board. Tell me; what else have you done but sulk to others about how much you hate that you can't get your models a few DAYS sooner?

It's the economics of supply and demand, they created a perceived limited supply of Dreadfleet. They pushed that hard and it was successful for them. Now they have another gift set (the paintbrushes) that have a "limited" supply for the holiday season. They are going to push that hard and it will also be successful. The Necron army, on the other hand, has no perceived supply shortage and can be pushed over and over by GW employees, or can be sought by customers drawn to the army.

It's just economics and they're doing quite well for themselves according to their stocks and annual reports despite these "bad policies"...

They're doing well thanks to rigorous cost-cutting, their sales are down.

Sidstyler wrote:
By the same token I can protest the abundance of Space Marine armies because Space Marines are supposed to be rare in the fluff, there's only supposed to be a million of them in a galaxy full of untold billions of regular humans and aliens alike, but I have a feeling that I'd be told to feth off if I seriously tried to argue with people and tell them the only armies they're allowed to play are Guard and Orks.

I guess it's too much work to just pretend that the special character on the field is someone else? It's really no different from fielding any other unit in a codex, it's nothing more than a statline with a couple of special rules, it doesn't have to be Marneus Calgar going to fight every single battle.

Why do people even care? I didn't realize realism was that damn important in our space game with aliens, gods, and physics-defying/sense-defying technology. It's okay if your super soldier army that's supposedly so rare as to be a myth to most of the Imperium is somehow able to show up and battle every known threat to the galaxy, but the chapter master showing up to every battle is just too much!

Quoted for win. Preach on, brother.

Yakface, we need more rumors! The thread is degenerating rapidly! Rescue us!

Sidstyler wrote:
By the same token I can protest the abundance of Space Marine armies because Space Marines are supposed to be rare in the fluff, there's only supposed to be a million of them in a galaxy full of untold billions of regular humans and aliens alike, but I have a feeling that I'd be told to feth off if I seriously tried to argue with people and tell them the only armies they're allowed to play are Guard and Orks.

I guess it's too much work to just pretend that the special character on the field is someone else? It's really no different from fielding any other unit in a codex, it's nothing more than a statline with a couple of special rules, it doesn't have to be Marneus Calgar going to fight every single battle.

Why do people even care? I didn't realize realism was that damn important in our space game with aliens, gods, and physics-defying/sense-defying technology. It's okay if your super soldier army that's supposedly so rare as to be a myth to most of the Imperium is somehow able to show up and battle every known threat to the galaxy, but the chapter master showing up to every battle is just too much!

Noooooooooooo! Don't spoil people's unreasoned, unfounded hatred with sound arguments? What's this board coming to?

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

CKO wrote:Does anyone know what are the weapons on the ghost ark?

Flayers by the looks of it.

S4 AP5 Rapid Fire.

How many and are they twin-linked?

CKO wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

CKO wrote:Does anyone know what are the weapons on the ghost ark?

Flayers by the looks of it.

S4 AP5 Rapid Fire.

How many and are they twin-linked?

5 on each side. Not TL.

But you can split targets apparently.

Does every new codex have a 20-shot weapon?

IG - punisher cannon
tyranids - fleshborer hive

oh wait those are just Crud-ace's codices....

UNTIL NOW! Bwahaha 20 shots of glance-on-a-6 goodness. Too bad you'll never get to line up both broadsides on a single unit, unless it's horseshoe-shaped.

tetrisphreak wrote:Does every new codex have a 20-shot weapon?

IG - punisher cannon
tyranids - fleshborer hive

oh wait those are just Crud-ace's codices....

UNTIL NOW! Bwahaha 20 shots of glance-on-a-6 goodness. Too bad you'll never get to line up both broadsides on a single unit, unless it's horseshoe-shaped.

Its possible...you just have to be surrounded. Like in CC.

Blink wrote:

Hox wrote:

Blink wrote:IcedAnimal, you aren't the primary demographic for them in that regard. Fact is, the LGS has to purchase the stuff from GW anyway, so they don't lose all that much in that regard.

They have other merchandise to push (Dreadfleet and now the paint set), so they can hold off on the army which will have eventual purchases regardless if they're spur of the moment.

So cool the jets on calling things "terrible" policies and being hyper critical.

Maybe you missed out on something but everyone is pretty pissed at GW for this. Do you know a single company in existence that wont even say a word about a release two weeks away? Its bad publicity for GW and they are losing customers because of it. Pushing dreadfleet and a 300 dollar paint set? I bet there are huge markets for those. Before you decide to put your opinion on everybody else maybe you should read all the posts in the thread you are commenting in. Its people that are willing to sit back and take it that let GW charge 120 dollars for 5 knights.

You don't change anything with your constant whining and moaning. YOU are not a white knight accomplishing anything by complaining on a message board. Tell me; what else have you done but sulk to others about how much you hate that you can't get your models a few DAYS sooner?

It's the economics of supply and demand, they created a perceived limited supply of Dreadfleet. They pushed that hard and it was successful for them. Now they have another gift set (the paintbrushes) that have a "limited" supply for the holiday season. They are going to push that hard and it will also be successful. The Necron army, on the other hand, has no perceived supply shortage and can be pushed over and over by GW employees, or can be sought by customers drawn to the army.

It's just economics and they're doing quite well for themselves according to their stocks and annual reports despite these "bad policies"...

Wow BM much. Thanks for singling me out on things I have never said. I will not be buying Necrons on launch day because I, like most people, will need to go through the codex first. I have not "moaned" or "whined" at all, I have a legitimate opinion that some people here share but thanks for playing. When your company neglects its bread and butter customers and decides to hype paint sets and sailing games, those customers move to things like privateer press and using other companies figures to play your game. I didn't realize you spent all your time skimming through GWs economic portfolio. I dont know whether you feel the need to defend the company out of some bizarre obsession or whether you like getting bent over just to try and buy a couple plastic soldiers but because you have a separate opinion doesn't mean you get to be rude to someone you dont know.

I'm sure that with the repetitive price hikes, when it hits 80 bucks for a squad of your most basic troops you will just sit back and say "Oh its just economics". If there was an equivalent company to GW, most people would probably jump the GW ship. I dont know about you but if I put thousands into your hobby and then you hide info to the last second and gouge me on every single thing, how is that just economics. I dont think "If we can screw them over without them having somewhere else to go, lets do it" is a respectable business plan.

Zweischneid wrote:

Sidstyler wrote:
By the same token...

Noooooooooooo! Don't spoil people's unreasoned, unfounded hatred with sound arguments? What's this board coming to?

Whose unreasoned, unfounded hatred are you talking about?

I appologize for the "BM", Hox, but fact is, Games Workshop IS a business governed by economics. If they CAN get away with selling a troop box for $80, they most certainly would. All businesses strive to reach that equilibrium between price and # of sales.

And you are right, they would lower their prices if they had an equalizing competetor... But they don't. Complaining doesn't change that fact.

I'm personally tired of the pseudointellectual talk about the "bad business" policies they have from people who really have no idea what they're talking about, and instead are just frustrated that they have to pay more, or wait longer.

Yeah it sucks we have to pay so much for our little plastic toys; lord knows why we do it in the first place, but there's some draw to that, and GW capitalizes on that fact.

Wow, if you guys hate this game and Company soo much; why do you guys play it? Anyway, let's get back on topic please?

Does anyone know if any of the new minis come on 40mm bases?

New wraiths likely will.

Ctan shard maybe also, but they may upgrade it to a larger MC base.

None of the new stuff we have pics for looks like it does.

Blink wrote:I appologize for the "BM", Hox, but fact is, Games Workshop IS a business governed by economics. If they CAN get away with selling a troop box for $80, they most certainly would. All businesses strive to reach that equilibrium between price and # of sales.

And you are right, they would lower their prices if they had an equalizing competetor... But they don't. Complaining doesn't change that fact.

I'm personally tired of the pseudointellectual talk about the "bad business" policies they have from people who really have no idea what they're talking about, and instead are just frustrated that they have to pay more, or wait longer.

Yeah it sucks we have to pay so much for our little plastic toys; lord knows why we do it in the first place, but there's some draw to that, and GW capitalizes on that fact.

I probably wouldn't bring that up here. 40K is one of those hobbies that bring out the egocentrist in people. They tend to interpret things they don't like as a slight against them.

GW is a moderately successful business that tries to balance price with demand, but they have policies I don't like, so they're an evil moneygrubbing corporation!

This one player uses lists that I can never quite seem to beat, but instead of finding a way around it using basic math and a quick search on a tactics forum, I'm going to blame GW for having incompetent army book writers!

All these WAAC players have fun playing the game itself and trying to trying to be as decisive a general as possible, but I don't enjoy that since I place more value on the hobbying aspect of wargaming. Clearly, these people have it all wrong and are therefore ruining the game for everyone!

That having been said, GW absolutely fails at marketing. It seems that they're playing a dangerous game with the price increases to increase revenue when they should be focusing on driving up demand. If they would step up production of new rules (not every codex release needs a billion new models to accompany it) people would have no problem buying the old models. And they don't do any competent advertising outside of video games.

edit: grammar

Ostrakon wrote:... not every codex release needs a billion new models to accompany it...

Therein lies the problem. They don't see it as:

'This Codex needs a dozen new kits to go with it!'

Instead they see it as:

'These dozen new kits need a Codex to go with them!


Model company first. Rules company last. Not second - last!

Sidstyler wrote:
I guess it's too much work to just pretend that the special character on the field is someone else? It's really no different from fielding any other unit in a codex, it's nothing more than a statline with a couple of special rules, it doesn't have to be Marneus Calgar going to fight every single battle.

Why do people even care?

Personally, it's that special characters are made so cheesy that nobody plays "regular" IC's anymore unless the army is so obsolete that special characters are not worth playing (Tau). I think it is something like a year when I have last seen a Space Marine list with regular Space Marine Captain. It just takes character out of the army when everyone plays same "special" character.

I'd hate to blame Matt Ward, but it is really Matt Ward's fault. It's mostly his books which have spammed the game with OTT characters: Mephiston, Vulkan, Celestine, Draigo...

jspyd3rx wrote:Wow, if you guys hate this game and Company soo much; why do you guys play it? Anyway, let's get back on topic please?

Does anyone know if any of the new minis come on 40mm bases?

Because its something we enjoy. It would be nice to have more than a couple armies without having to look at your collection and think "theres a thousand dollars worth of units I almost never touch here". I dont know if your mother buys your stuff for you or if you make and spend your own money but a military salary leaves a fair bit to be desired in terms of extra cash to spend on hobbies. Its hard to justify 300-400 in new units to update an army.

jspyd3rx wrote:Wow, if you guys hate this game and Company soo much; why do you guys play it? Anyway, let's get back on topic please?

Because hating the company =/= hating the game.

Yakface we need another character discription!

Or more info about any psychic defense!

Today let's look a bit more at Illuminor Szeras.

His fluff says that while the C'Tan provided the knowledge for the bio-transference of the Necrontyr race into Necrons, it was Szeras that actually made it a reality. He saw it as just one step towards the ultimate evolution into gods of pure energy (I guess what he saw the C'Tan as and wanted to be that).

So even today he continues his tireless studies into understanding all facets of life, presumably seeking the elusive secret that would allow him to become a 'god' in his eyes.

To do this, apparently he feels he needs to test on living beings, so he's constantly needing fresh subjects culled from invasions. Through his research he has come up with some the greatest advancements in technology for the Necrons, so his services are much sought after.


He is a Cryptek special character, so has a much more less powerful statline then the other special characters that are essentially super-Necron Orverlords.

For Wargear, he has an Eldrtich Lance and Gaze of Flame (Assault and Defensive Grenades for him and his unit).

His one unique special rule is that he upgrades a single Warrior or Immmortal unit with a random upgrade (you roll a D3 to see which ability gets picked...I mistakenly reported earlier that he upgraded D3 units, but that actually isn't the case. He only upgrades one unit)

The upgrades are: T5, BS5 or S5.

Definitely one of the more ho-hum named characters from a gameplay perspective, but he's also the cheapest by far.

Thank you!!

I've only skimmed the thread for fluff and photos, but here's my perspective.

To be honest, these new fluff changes do solve some of the problems the Necrons had-- now, they have characters with personality and goals, far more diversity in their various Tomb-world empires, and their books can have quotes from these new characters like all the other books do.

However, it also makes them more or less just like every other race: a squabbling, struggling and disparate empire trying to expand and destroy its specific enemies while greedily looking out for its own selfish interests, and we already have those. They're still robot skeletons with gauss weapons, but without their cold, indiscriminate slaughter of the living, I feel like they've lost the "necro" in "Necrons". I'm not really "afraid" of them anymore.

I also notice a shift to a more Egyptian motif in the aesthetics. Speaking personally, the shapes look okayish, but the gold touches just don't work for me. I feel like it lays on the inspirational style too thickly; it's quite obvious, compared to the subtler styles seen in the previous designs.

Thanks, yakface! Every tidbit of information is one step closer to having the real thing in our hands!

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:... not every codex release needs a billion new models to accompany it...

Therein lies the problem. They don't see it as:

'This Codex needs a dozen new kits to go with it!'

Instead they see it as:

'These dozen new kits need a Codex to go with them!


Model company first. Rules company last. Not second - last!

Fair enough, but if this is true (ostensibly, it must be given their, er, interesting business practices) then they'd move more models overall if they updated rules more often. Even a range that doesn't sell well would see increased demand if it had its rules updated every once in a while. Take 'crons or DE for example. Demand for those armies dwindled down to almost nothing, so they didn't get new rules. How does that help them sell models? If they weren't planning on adding new models anyway, they have very little to lose by releasing a quick WD rules update updating point costs to reflect the status quo of a new edition. I can understand them wanting to hold back an update if they have new models in the immediate pipeline, but they clearly didn't have plans to release new GK/SoB/DE/Necron models any time after the 4E rules came out. Letting demand for those ranges stagnate is a terrible way to do business. It baffles me how they can manage to stay afloat by increasing the price of a box of tacmarines by 10 bucks.

I have a quick question: Can any Special Characters be taken in an Overlord's court? Or are they all their own HQ choice?

I believe they can, since they can be mounted in a command barge as well, and I seem to recall Yakface saying they could somewhere.

I like how they have cheaper HQs Incase you really like your overlord and dont have the points for one of the big dogs

Or even just for smaller games necrons can now have choices for a 1000 point game instead of the just what you can fit after a lord and 2 warrior squads

Woops just realized I messed up my question. I meant to say can a SC be taken IN an Overlord's Court. Ima edit my previous post accordingly