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Made in us
Missionary On A Mission




The Eye of Terror

A sister of battle with a flamer is 17 points.

A space marine with a flamer is 16 points.

Rhino:
Sisters: 50 points, have to buy smoke launchers and searchlights for 4 more points. No special rules.
Space Marines: 35 points, free smoke launchers and searchlight, 'Repair' special rule.

Chimera
Sisters:
70 points, must buy a main weapon for +10 points, may buy a hull weapon for 5 points.
IG:
55 points, comes with multilaser and heavy bolter, searchlight, smoke launchers, 2 special rules, and options for a pintle mounted weapon.

Land raider:
250 points for each
Sisters: 10 model capacity, TL lascannons, TL heavy bolter. Only available to an inquistor as a transport, not as a heavy support choice.
Marines: Heavy support choice, 12 model capacity, same armament, power of the machine spirit, assault vehicle, more weapon options.

Anyone else play an army suffering like crazy from codex creep?

 
   
Made in us
Grumpy Longbeard




New York

And yet Sisters of Battle Immolator spam is one of the most competitive lists out there. Go figure.
   
Made in au
Killer Klaivex






Forever alone

It's just because the WH codex is outdated.

People are like dice, a certain Frenchman said that. You throw yourself in the direction of your own choosing. People are free because they can do that. Everyone's circumstances are different, but no matter how small the choice, at the very least, you can throw yourself. It's not chance or fate. It's the choice you made. 
   
Made in ca
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers






Well I kind of moved near Toronto, actually.

In all fairness that is not "codex creep," that is game-rebalancing. And yes, it is stupid.

While we are on the subject, a case could be made for sisters having higher priced flamers due to Faith points (their AP1 rule) and what do you call it. Redunancy. Since they can actually take two in each squad, like Devatastors pay a hirer price.

I have not taken a look a the BT or DA books in a while but it is not unreasonable for either group of players to have the choice of "upgrading" to the new points value.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/19 01:28:43


Dakka Articles: Eldar Tactica | In Defence of Starcannons (math) | Ork Takktika Quick Tips
taco online: WoW PvP
ur hax are nubz 
   
Made in us
Oozing Plague Marine Terminator







Why on EARTH would you want AP1 flamers?

You also missed that Sister's Landraiders don't have an assault ramp.

As my third point, yes, Codex creep is real, and it's all GW fault for poor planning (or lack there of).

   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Macon, GA

Well, the transports all went down in price from the old 3rd edition codices because the transport rules are far less good in 5th than in 3rd (although better than in 4th).

As for the Sister with flamer, you're making the wrong assumption about the cost of the Marine with flamer. It's only 17pts when you buy ten, and the "free" weapons and sgt are factored in. Assuming 5pt weapons and a 10pt sgt, the marines go back down to 15pts, but a marine with flamer is 20pts.

My Painted Armies
: Co. B, 37th Praetorian IG: 21,000pts
KOW Ogres: 4500 points
Loyalist Emperor's Children: 2500 points 
   
Made in jp
Regular Dakkanaut




DarkHound wrote:Why on EARTH would you want AP1 flamers?



to kill lot of marines easily?

why wouldn't you want one?
   
Made in us
Missionary On A Mission




The Eye of Terror

It's not an AP1 flamer, it's a flamer with Rending.

Totally different.

 
   
Made in us
Homicidal Veteran Blood Angel Assault Marine





how old is the WH codex now? Mine is copyright 2003 but idk if I have one of the first ones or not.

Either way, to complain that a 6 year old (at least) codex is missing the more "standard" options available to similar units from codexes that are about a year old is a bit rediculous. The rules change and new codexes are produced to update armies for the new iterations of the rules will OBVIOUSLY result in differences between old and new books. If you look at the SM codex that was legal when SoB came out (or take a look at the one that was released closest to the time when codex WH was released) I'm sure you'll find more similarities between the two (in terms of things like Rhinos and their standard equipment).

To say a 6 year old book (that is clearly outdated and in need of an update) is not on par with the books that have been very recently (like the last couple of years or newer) released is pretty much silly. If the game had not changed at all (ie same rules set) and the new books were wildly different than the rather old ones there would be much more of an issue.

A more solid example of the "codex creep" type thing you're talking about is the SM codexes like DA, BT and BA that still have Rites of Battle as a special rule and do not have combat/chapter tactics.
   
Made in us
The Hammer of Witches





A new day, a new time zone.

DarkHound wrote:As my third point, yes, Codex creep is real, and it's all GW fault for poor planning (or lack there of).

Then perhaps you could actually show some examples of it to prove your point?

"-Nonsense, the Inquisitor and his retinue are our hounoured guests, of course we should invite them to celebrate Four-armed Emperor-day with us..."
Thought for the Day - Never use the powerfist hand to wipe. 
   
Made in us
Missionary On A Mission




The Eye of Terror

Bookwrack wrote:
DarkHound wrote:As my third point, yes, Codex creep is real, and it's all GW fault for poor planning (or lack there of).

Then perhaps you could actually show some examples of it to prove your point?

Examples: See original post.
Space marine and IG options are just outright BETTER than sisters options, better, for less points, no argument.
If that is not dictionary definititon codex creep i dont know what is.

 
   
Made in us
The Hammer of Witches





A new day, a new time zone.

Except that's most certainly not an example of codex creep. The definition of codex/power creep is that each release is stronger than the previous one, and so each further release makes their rules stronger and stronger in order to keep up, so you have currently releases completely overshadowing older ones. The fact that Soritas are still a completely viable army rather neatly proves that cries of 'codex creep' are greatly exaggerated.

Your original post fails quite thoroughly to demonstrate any evidence of creep.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2009/05/19 02:20:26


"-Nonsense, the Inquisitor and his retinue are our hounoured guests, of course we should invite them to celebrate Four-armed Emperor-day with us..."
Thought for the Day - Never use the powerfist hand to wipe. 
   
Made in us
Missionary On A Mission




The Eye of Terror

The definition of codex/power creep is that each release is stronger than the previous one

And im sorry.... a rhino being both cheaper, and better, than a sisters rhino, based solely on the fact that it is newer.... is not codex creep.... how?
Can sisters rhinos use faith points? Can they move faster? Do they still use third edition rules for anything that gives them an advantage over the space marines rhino?
No?
So.... the Marine codex is just straight up more powerful... because it is newer.
Codex creep.

 
   
Made in us
Dominar






As others have said, that's not codex creep, it's simply re-balancing.

If you're legitimately upset about it, download the Imperial Armor inquisitorial update where they readjust all the WH/DH transports to be in-line with current SM/Guard costs.
   
Made in us
Missionary On A Mission




The Eye of Terror

Im just trying to make the point that Sisters, (as well as GKs and others) need a codex WAAY before All the different varieties of different colored space marines.

 
   
Made in us
The Hammer of Witches





A new day, a new time zone.

Well then you should have said so. Although I'm pretty sure that the Space Wolves codex is even older than WH, given that CSM and SM make up about 50% of the company's sales as a whole, you're going to see them get the preferential treatment. Get more people to buy Inquisition, and maybe we'll see a codex sooner on the schedule.
Canonness Rory wrote:
The definition of codex/power creep is that each release is stronger than the previous one

And im sorry.... a rhino being both cheaper, and better, than a sisters rhino, based solely on the fact that it is newer.... is not codex creep.... how?
Can sisters rhinos use faith points? Can they move faster? Do they still use third edition rules for anything that gives them an advantage over the space marines rhino?
No?
So.... the Marine codex is just straight up more powerful... because it is newer.
Codex creep.

No, it's not. Since you don't understand what the term means, stop using it .

It'd be power creep if the rhinos were upgraded to 13/13/12 and given assault ramps. Instead, vehicle costs have been dropped across the board. WH are just a victim of the staggered release schedule, so they haven't gotten the updated vehicles yet (unless you're using IA rules, in which case your argument is completely destroyed).

So again, you think there's power creep? Please try and actually provide an example.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/19 02:30:29


"-Nonsense, the Inquisitor and his retinue are our hounoured guests, of course we should invite them to celebrate Four-armed Emperor-day with us..."
Thought for the Day - Never use the powerfist hand to wipe. 
   
Made in us
Missionary On A Mission




The Eye of Terror

Bookwrack wrote:
Canonness Rory wrote:
The definition of codex/power creep is that each release is stronger than the previous one

And im sorry.... a rhino being both cheaper, and better, than a sisters rhino, based solely on the fact that it is newer.... is not codex creep.... how?
Can sisters rhinos use faith points? Can they move faster? Do they still use third edition rules for anything that gives them an advantage over the space marines rhino?
No?
So.... the Marine codex is just straight up more powerful... because it is newer.
Codex creep.

No, it's not. Since you don't understand what the term means, stop using it .

It'd be power creep if the rhinos were upgraded to 13/13/12 and given assault ramps. Instead, vehicle costs have been dropped across the board. WH are just a victim of the staggered release schedule, so they haven't gotten the updated vehicles yet (unless you're using IA rules, in which case your argument is completely destroyed).

So again, you think there's power creep? Please try and actually provide an example.


You're the one who doesn't understand what the term means, not only are the space marines versions cheaper, but they have the 'repair' special rule

IG chimeras are cheaper, and come with better, and more, weapons, for less points.

The newer codices have stronger options, for less points. How is that NOT codex/power creep, and why the feth does it matter so much to you? Do you think sisters are overpowered or something? Do you just like arguing over the internet? Jesus christ people are stupid.

 
   
Made in ie
Waaagh! Warbiker




In other news, a Shocking revelation that Windows 3.1 is actually worse than Windows XP!

More at 11!
Canonness Rory wrote:The newer codices have stronger options, for less points. How is that NOT codex/power creep, and why the feth does it matter so much to you? Do you think sisters are overpowered or something? Do you just like arguing over the internet? Jesus christ people are stupid.
How you have not been auto castrated by the Massive irony of that sentence is the key to world Peace I reckon.

it isn't Creep at all, its rebalancing. If GW released their codex's in a prompt manner, then this wouldn't even be an issue (it isnt now, but there ya go).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/05/19 02:46:19


 
   
Made in us
Missionary On A Mission




The Eye of Terror

gak. And here I thought I might get an actual civil conversation from someone on the internet for once.

But nope, you're all idiots.

 
   
Made in ie
Waaagh! Warbiker




Says the boy whining and crying that Sisters of Battle Rending Flamers that you get 2 of per squad are a whole 1 point more than a Spees Mahrine one (That isn't rending and you only get 1 of).
   
Made in us
Homicidal Veteran Blood Angel Assault Marine





\You're complaining about something while literally choosing to ignore the obvious reasons why it is like that (choosing because they have already been presented in this thread, and you aren't happy with the answer apparently). GW isn't going to think 6 years ahead of schedule when they release something. I doubt 5th edition was even anywhere near the GW radar when the WH book was published. As the game evolves the new codexes will evolve with it, making the old ones outdated and obsolete. If the game had not changed at all (ie 3rd edition rule set) and the newest codexes of today were being released and looked exactly like they do today, there would be some crazy issues.

GW is also going to revise the things that make them the most money first because they are a corporation that needs to make money at the end of the day. Marines and CSM make up a massive chunk of their 40k revenue so they're always going to be the top priority.

Oh yea and Necrons need it more than WH do. The entire army literally became garbage when glancing hits stopped being able to destroy vehicles. WH on the other hand can field a very solid and competitive army out of their old and outdated book (no joke). If I was GW and looking to address power level problems, I'd start with the weakest armies and WH is not one of them.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





dead account

Waaaaaaagh! wrote:In other news, a Shocking revelation that Windows 3.1 is actually worse than Windows XP!


Super LoLs

BTW Canonness Rory you sound hawt

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/19 02:56:05


 
   
Made in us
Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation




I don't think that WH need a rewrite because of them being weak. I think they need a rewrite because their codex is extreamly outdated. Necrons got a fourth edition codex, and I have disagree that necrons lost their anti vehicle capabilities. with the ability to have almost every unit in your codex glance any AV 14, it makes using warriors to glance a landreaider or vinicator to death a vary viable option.

 
   
Made in us
Missionary On A Mission




The Eye of Terror

Waaaaaaagh! wrote:Says the boy whining and crying that Sisters of Battle Rending Flamers that you get 2 of per squad are a whole 1 point more than a Spees Mahrine one (That isn't rending and you only get 1 of).

1.) I'm female
2.) space marines are better at EVERYTHING else.
3.) ur a doody-head.

 
   
Made in ie
Waaagh! Warbiker




Brother Condon wrote:I don't think that WH need a rewrite because of them being weak. I think they need a rewrite because their codex is extreamly outdated. Necrons got a fourth edition codex, and I have disagree that necrons lost their anti vehicle capabilities. with the ability to have almost every unit in your codex glance any AV 14, it makes using warriors to glance a landreaider or vinicator to death a vary viable option.
No, Necrons are a 3rd edition codex.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

Canonness Rory wrote:Im just trying to make the point that Sisters, (as well as GKs and others) need a codex WAAY before All the different varieties of different colored space marines.

If that were so, then Sisters and GK would actually have gotten their Codices by now, instead of the far better-selling Eldar, Chaos, Orks & Guard & Marines.

And based on the most recent Codices (SM, IG), do you think you'll still have Faith points and lots of Inquisition options to go with your Sisters?

If so, then I hope you've got a chair handy for when you crack open that brand, new Robin Crudace Codex that you'll have to live with for the next 7 or 8 years...

   
Made in us
[DCM]
[***]







OK.

There have been several complaints about this thread already.

Apparently, Codex Creep is a volatile issue.

PLEASE follow Dakka's #1 rule.

Or, you know...
   
Made in us
Apprehensive Inquisitorial Apprentice




The Labyrinth

sourclams wrote:As others have said, that's not codex creep, it's simply re-balancing.

If you're legitimately upset about it, download the Imperial Armor inquisitorial update where they readjust all the WH/DH transports to be in-line with current SM/Guard costs.


I used this example because it seemed to me to ironically be a point in Rory's (if I may be familiar) favor.

If an option "re-balanced" is vastly superior to the original version, and codex creep is "making things more powerful", then the two are complementary sentences, not oppository. If the new rhino is now balanced to the current era, it implies the current era is stronger/ more powerful than previous eras. If something is cheaper for more effect than something else, it is stronger.

Stating that there remain a few options that are viable does not mean the system is the same. It's like stating "there are a few pandas left, they aren't in danger". Presumably, if Immolator spam is good today, it was really good in its day. The most solid positions may still be fine, but what of the rest of them? For perhaps a better analogy, we can think of codex creep as slow flooding. By luck, or strength, some remnants of what were will endure, but the majority will drown, unable to make it to the top.

Not that, personally, I care overly much if there is "codex creep". As Waaaagh (obliquely) pointed out, if things aren't getting better, why am I paying money for new stuff?
   
Made in us
[ADMIN]
President of the Mat Ward Fan Club






Los Angeles, CA


One quick way to get your threads locked is to make a proposal and then insult people who disagree with it even though they take the time to explain why they think your proposal is wrong.

The term 'codex creep' is generally accepted to mean an idea where each successive codex is better than the next thereby enticing players to constantly buy the newest army.

The cost of WH/DH Rhinos vs. Rhinos in newer codices is not considered 'codex creep' by most people because the drop in transport prices has been consistent since the introduction of the Dark Angels codex. GW clearly decided at some point that Transports across the board, were over-costed and as each new codex has been released they have changed that trend with consistency.

So are Rhinos in the WH/DH codex worse than those in the newer SM codices? Absolutely. But this doesn't fit the general concept most people accept as 'codex creep' because all of the newer codices have all the new lower-costed transports at the same point level.


Locking now as the OP started insulting others. . .


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