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2023/03/30 21:31:06
Subject: 10th Edition Rumour Roundup - Now with unspectacular leaks of the 'Lion's Guard' box!
Dysartes wrote: They seem determined to bring bad elements from AOS into 40k, so expect the double turn here come 11th.
What bad elements of AoS have we recieved?
My top 3 (or at least 2.5)?
- Fixed to-hit values instead of a reworked comparison table in melee. Gretchin should not be hitting The Lion (based on what we've seen so far) as easily as they hit a Guardsman or Guardian. At least they've not dragged fixed to-wound values across... yet.
Why not? They're a pretty big target for a lowly grot, so it'd be pretty hard to miss.
They're also moving targets who will be evading hits. That's what the comparative table was supposed to represent.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/30 21:31:26
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
2023/03/30 21:35:08
Subject: 10th Edition Rumour Roundup - Now with unspectacular leaks of the 'Lion's Guard' box!
Dysartes wrote: They seem determined to bring bad elements from AOS into 40k, so expect the double turn here come 11th.
What bad elements of AoS have we recieved?
My top 3 (or at least 2.5)?
- Fixed to-hit values instead of a reworked comparison table in melee. Gretchin should not be hitting The Lion (based on what we've seen so far) as easily as they hit a Guardsman or Guardian. At least they've not dragged fixed to-wound values across... yet.
Why not? They're a pretty big target for a lowly grot, so it'd be pretty hard to miss.
The writers of Horus Heresy V2 have gone to a different path, and reworked the old 3-4-5-6-7th editions WS table. Now it works by comparing the WS of the attacker to those of the defender, in a manner similar to the simplified STR to T table of 8-9th editions. And my mates that play HH say the new table works well. It represents the ability of a good duelist to parry / escape / dodge the attacks. It lowers the need to grant artificial invulnerable saves (e.g. wyches, genestealers) and that's good.
longtime Astra Militarum neckbeard
2023/03/30 21:56:19
Subject: I can almost hear the seething from here...
H.B.M.C. wrote: Your faction gives you the Oath of Moment army rule (more on this next week!) while your Detachment gives you access to six unique Stratagems – on top of the core group in the main rules – as well as four exclusive Enhancements for your Space Marine characters. It also bags you the Combat Doctrines ability, which allows you to pick from three powerful doctrines during your Command phase.
Admittedly I'm only on my first coffee of the morning, but this sounds like an awful lot of additional guff to keep track of...
Its six Strats when compared to... 60? more?
Combat doctrines that exist now (but no super doctrine)
Oath of the Moment we don't know, but given the rejection of color = rules, it likely replaces Chapter Tactics
4 Enhancements replace all of warlord traits, relics and etc.
Its very definitely a lot less to keep track of.
Is it? I came here to post something jokingly about how much I must keep track of...
For instance, you might be playing as the Gladius Task Force of the Adeptus Astartes. Your faction gives you the Oath of Moment army rule (more on this next week!) while your Detachment gives you access to six unique Stratagems – on top of the core group in the main rules – as well as four exclusive Enhancements for your Space Marine characters. It also bags you the Combat Doctrines ability, which allows you to pick from three powerful doctrines during your Command phase.
Then there is presimably still relics and warlord traits. I think I'll stick to retroplay with 3rd, though I wish people lots of fun in enjoying the game in 10th, I just dont have energy or attention span for all its layers of rules when its wrapped around what is essentially a shallow game on par with Mordheim or another clunky 90s game.
Let the galaxy burn.
2023/03/30 22:00:09
Subject: I can almost hear the seething from here...
Then there is presimably still relics and warlord traits.
Warlord Traits and Relics get replaced with the Detachment based Enhancements.
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
2023/03/30 22:17:26
Subject: 10th Edition Rumour Roundup - Now with unspectacular leaks of the 'Lion's Guard' box!
H.B.M.C. wrote: Your faction gives you the Oath of Moment army rule (more on this next week!) while your Detachment gives you access to six unique Stratagems – on top of the core group in the main rules – as well as four exclusive Enhancements for your Space Marine characters. It also bags you the Combat Doctrines ability, which allows you to pick from three powerful doctrines during your Command phase.
Admittedly I'm only on my first coffee of the morning, but this sounds like an awful lot of additional guff to keep track of...
Its six Strats when compared to... 60? more?
Combat doctrines that exist now (but no super doctrine)
Oath of the Moment we don't know, but given the rejection of color = rules, it likely replaces Chapter Tactics
4 Enhancements replace all of warlord traits, relics and etc.
Its very definitely a lot less to keep track of.
Is it? I came here to post something jokingly about how much I must keep track of...
Absolutely yes. There can't be any debate on this.
Currently: there are four pages of stratagems alone in the Codex: Space Marines. More pages from the chapter supplements. Pages of relics, warlord traits in both.
4 pages of chapter traits. multiple psychic disciplines and litanies of battle (again, more in the chapter supplements).
Chapter Command. ATSKNF. Bolter discipline. Shock Assault. Combat discipline (seemingly the only survivor of those)
Compared to:
For instance, you might be playing as the Gladius Task Force of the Adeptus Astartes. Your faction gives you the Oath of Moment army rule (more on this next week!) while your Detachment gives you access to six unique Stratagems – on top of the core group in the main rules – as well as four exclusive Enhancements for your Space Marine characters. It also bags you the Combat Doctrines ability, which allows you to pick from three powerful doctrines during your Command phase.
That's a massive reduction, from 15+ pages to 2. Now, I can see why someone might not like the extent of the reduction, but that there is a significant reduction of 'stuff to keep track of' isn't debatable.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/30 22:23:43
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2023/03/30 22:24:30
Subject: 10th Edition Rumour Roundup - Now with unspectacular leaks of the 'Lion's Guard' box!
Say what Daed suggested is right, and that the 1KSons keep their cults. There are 9 of those. Let's also add an army for Magnus and one for Ahriman. So 11 different potential armies in the book, each with 2 pages. 22 pages of rules. Granted, they're not piling up on top of one another (layered rules was one of the biggest issue in 9th), but it's not like they've reduced the amount of rules.
And how much repetition is there? Surely there would be 1KSons strats that would be appropriate for any 1KSons army? So say there are 6 armies rather than 11, will they reprint the same Strat 6 times over?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/30 23:04:47
We will have to wait and see how much of the current rules "bloat" disappears, moves to the datasheet, moves to the core game rules, or ends up in the detachment.
Given that GW has promised 2 pages of detachment rules plus your datasheets are all you need to play, I expect a lot of current rules will disappear. Others will be remain in name only.
We know that Adeptus Astartes have Oath of Moment. Could be the new name for a new rules appropriate version of ATSKNF, but we will learn soon.
We know the Gladius Task Force has Combat Doctrines, which is a total callback to the old 7th edition Formation. Hopefully these will be more like the 7th Ed version (Re-roll 1 in select phases, full rerolls for select units) than the 8th/9th version (Improved AP for select weapon types).
This leaves lots of current rules layers either moving to datasheets or disappearing since they had implied there are no other detachment rules here besides the Enchantments and Stratagems. Hopefully they will add rules and/or adjust stats to units that make them attractive for specific roles that fit their lore.
2023/03/30 23:09:27
Subject: Re:10th Edition Rumour Roundup - Now with unspectacular leaks of the 'Lion's Guard' box!
alextroy wrote: Given that GW has promised 2 pages of detachment rules plus your datasheets are all you need to play, I expect a lot of current rules will disappear. Others will be remain in name only.
Or all the army abilities just get reprinted on every single datacards for squads of that faction. Technically, the detachment rules are only two pages, and all the extra rules have spread to another place.
2023/03/30 23:22:12
Subject: 10th Edition Rumour Roundup - Now with unspectacular leaks of the 'Lion's Guard' box!
The total volume of rules might be the same as now, but each game is down to 2 pages of them. (Theoretically)
So if you want to know what potential nastiness is out there, you are going to have to study though a lot of stuff. Just like you would have to check each current codex, subfaction book, WD DLC, etc that we have now.
But when the plastic hits the table and the dice come out, you can review the ~2 pages that your opponent is bringing to that fight and know what you can expect for the next couple of hours.
Not what he’s going to pull out of the half foot stack of books and printouts he’s pulling from now.
Nevelon wrote: But when the plastic hits the table and the dice come out, you can review the ~2 pages that your opponent is bringing to that fight and know what you can expect for the next couple of hours.
Not what he’s going to pull out of the half foot stack of books and printouts he’s pulling from now.
Two pages of army rules. But given that even termagants have a reaction rule of their own, it's likely that many other datasheets will contain similar 'out of turn' abilities that an opponent must be aware of, let alone the presumably much more detailed text on Primarchs and other such special characters.
2023/03/30 23:36:53
Subject: 10th Edition Rumour Roundup - Now with unspectacular leaks of the 'Lion's Guard' box!
Nevelon wrote: But when the plastic hits the table and the dice come out, you can review the ~2 pages that your opponent is bringing to that fight and know what you can expect for the next couple of hours.
Not what he’s going to pull out of the half foot stack of books and printouts he’s pulling from now.
Two pages of army rules. But given that even termagants have a reaction rule of their own, it's likely that many other datasheets will contain similar 'out of turn' abilities that an opponent must be aware of, let alone the presumably much more detailed text on Primarchs and other such special characters.
Yea I think people might find that the slim down of rules is actually converting strats or putting strat-like abilities onto datasheets since they stated every sheet is getting some ability. So there's still tons of rules out there -- the nice thing is that your army with 5 to 10 unique units adds 5 to 10 rules rather than a wide selection that can be applied to different units throughout the game.
2023/03/30 23:59:08
Subject: 10th Edition Rumour Roundup - Now with unspectacular leaks of the 'Lion's Guard' box!
Nevelon wrote: But when the plastic hits the table and the dice come out, you can review the ~2 pages that your opponent is bringing to that fight and know what you can expect for the next couple of hours.
Not what he’s going to pull out of the half foot stack of books and printouts he’s pulling from now.
Two pages of army rules. But given that even termagants have a reaction rule of their own, it's likely that many other datasheets will contain similar 'out of turn' abilities that an opponent must be aware of, let alone the presumably much more detailed text on Primarchs and other such special characters.
You are not wrong.
At least with unit rules you get what it says on the tin. This is unit X, they have ability Y. Right there on the datasheet. You don’t need to worry about a normal looking units suddenly going crazy with gotcha rules out of who knows where. Barring the ~2 pages of layered rules you selected with your army.
The mental load of 40k is not going away. But the pre-game brief of “this is my army, this is what it does” should be a lot simpler.
Potentially. Right now we are in the golden age of GW promising what their plans and goals are. How they execute those, and keep the course, remains to be seen.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Your faction gives you the Oath of Moment army rule (more on this next week!) while your Detachment gives you access to six unique Stratagems – on top of the core group in the main rules – as well as four exclusive Enhancements for your Space Marine characters. It also bags you the Combat Doctrines ability, which allows you to pick from three powerful doctrines during your Command phase.
Admittedly I'm only on my first coffee of the morning, but this sounds like an awful lot of additional guff to keep track of...
Break it down like you're explaining the army at the table.
If we use Vashtorr as an example:
- All my Daemon Engines are always on for exploding hits for any weapon; Anything that is not a DE does not explode ever.
- In my command phase I can give one engine in 9" FNP from my warlord
My strats do the following :
- Max shots on one DE - Reroll hits w/i 6" of my Warlord for DE - Grant cover to CSM Astartes
- Thorn MW damage if you target a unit w/i 6" of my Warlord
- Increase cost of one of your strats by 1 once per game
- Advance, Charge and Shoot for a DE
And know you know everything about my army that isn't on a datasheet.
Dysartes wrote: They seem determined to bring bad elements from AOS into 40k, so expect the double turn here come 11th.
What bad elements of AoS have we recieved?
My top 3 (or at least 2.5)?
- Fixed to-hit values instead of a reworked comparison table in melee. Gretchin should not be hitting The Lion (based on what we've seen so far) as easily as they hit a Guardsman or Guardian. At least they've not dragged fixed to-wound values across... yet.
- Mortal Wounds (especially coupled with GW's lack of discipline on handing them out).
- The whole Command Point mess (which I think was AOS before 40k, but it was 6 years ago so I might be mis-remembering that).
Did you teleport back in time or something?
- We haven't had WS compare since 7th.
- The prevalence of MW is unknown.
- They already stated that CP are even less than what they are now.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
H.B.M.C. wrote: So say there are 6 armies rather than 11, will they reprint the same Strat 6 times over?
Yea lots of questions there. Like *if* we get Cults will -1D be a thing for each of them? ( or any of them? )
They're going to have to be really clever to make distinct strats and enhancements. I almost wonder is strats themselves become more strategic rather than tactical since picking "winners" for the haves and have-nots is certainly a thing.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2023/03/31 00:13:11
2023/03/31 00:30:05
Subject: 10th Edition Rumour Roundup - Now with unspectacular leaks of the 'Lion's Guard' box!
I mean, there has to be general army rules (Synapse seems like it would be), meaning that:
1. There is another page that has general army rules (Synapse, ATSKNF, Disgustingly Resilient), meaning it's not really 2 pages, it's 2 pages plus the standard rules for your army. Or...
2. Every 2 page army reprints the same rules over and over again, wasting space that could've been used for more options/flavour/fun. Or...
3. Only certain 2 page armies will get the iconic rules (only one type of Death Guard army gets Disgustingly Resilient), and that results in the situation you're talking about. Or...
4. They reprint these rules, in full, on every single data sheet, somewhat defeating the purpose of universal special rules (and increasing the chances of mistakes).
I agree that there should be a central source for the rules that govern your army, but that could easily turn into repeated instances of the same rules and a lot of wasted space. Or it could lead to weird situations where basic army rules that we've had for years get split up between weird arbitrary formations (Gladius Strike Force armies get ATSKNF, and only Deathwing armies get Deathwing rules, even if you take Deathwing units in a non-Deathwing army...).
It also greatly depends on the amount formations there will be. I mean the concept of a 1st Company formation for all Marines sounds great, but will there be an Armoured Company formation for Guard? It's already been pointed out in the general 40k discussion thread that the 3 of anything/6 of battleline & transports things breaks certain armies (how do you do Mechanised Guard if you can't bring more than 6 Chimeras? I own 12 Chimeras, so... am I just gak outta luck, or will there be a Mechanised Infantry formation that lets me take one transport for every infantry/battleline unit?). What if most Codices end up like the current WE one: The basic list, and then one that's led by a Special Character, and that's it? What if the only way to play actual Chapters/Legions/etc. rather than a giant blanket of 'Counts As' is to bring a mandatory special character?
Mr_Rose wrote: Personally I’m much more interested in how they are going to handle Forge World/legends units.
They already announced Legends will be getting rules for 10th. Haven't seen anything confirmed about FW yet.
They confirmed on the announcement stream that FW was getting released the same day as all the other PDFs.
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
2023/03/31 00:50:07
Subject: Re:10th Edition Rumour Roundup - Now with unspectacular leaks of the 'Lion's Guard' box!
We've wandered off topic... here, from a canon pic, is his shield
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/03/31 00:51:09
DO:70S++G++M+B++I+Pw40k93/f#++D++++A++++/eWD-R++++T(D)DM+ Note: Records since 2010, lists kept current (W-D-L) Blue DP Crusade 126-11-6 Biel-Tan Aspect Waves 2-0-2 Looted Green Horde smash your face in 32-7-8 Broadside/Shield Drone/Kroot blitz goodness 23-3-4 Grey Hunters galore 17-5-5 Khan Bikes Win 63-1-1 Tanith with Pardus Armor 11-0-0 Crimson Tide 59-4-0 Green/Raven/Deathwing 18-0-0 Jumping GK force with Inq. 4-0-0 BTemplars w LRs 7-1-2 IH Legion with Automata 8-0-0 RG Legion w Adepticon medal 6-0-0 Primaris and Little Buddies 7-0-0
QM Templates here, HH army builder app for both v1 and v2 One Page 40k Ruleset for Game Beginners
2023/03/31 02:04:33
Subject: 10th Edition Rumour Roundup - Now with unspectacular leaks of the 'Lion's Guard' box!
Dysartes wrote: They seem determined to bring bad elements from AOS into 40k, so expect the double turn here come 11th.
What bad elements of AoS have we recieved?
My top 3 (or at least 2.5)?
- Fixed to-hit values instead of a reworked comparison table in melee. Gretchin should not be hitting The Lion (based on what we've seen so far) as easily as they hit a Guardsman or Guardian. At least they've not dragged fixed to-wound values across... yet.
Why not? They're a pretty big target for a lowly grot, so it'd be pretty hard to miss.
The writers of Horus Heresy V2 have gone to a different path, and reworked the old 3-4-5-6-7th editions WS table. Now it works by comparing the WS of the attacker to those of the defender, in a manner similar to the simplified STR to T table of 8-9th editions. And my mates that play HH say the new table works well. It represents the ability of a good duelist to parry / escape / dodge the attacks. It lowers the need to grant artificial invulnerable saves (e.g. wyches, genestealers) and that's good.
It does make that WS difference feel more important. WS5 vs WS4 makes it feel like an up hill struggle for the WS4. Having something like WS8 against WS4 makes it feel like a mountain! Which is much like the scenario envisioned, how is a rank and file mook managing to get through the guard of someone like the lion? Well a little luck helps.
2023/03/31 02:10:36
Subject: I can almost hear the seething from here...
Is it, though? Or is it just shifted from the codex to the rulebook?
Yes, it is.
The rulebook? What, at all, anywhere, is giving you the impression the rulebook is getting bigger?
----
Look. Right now, in this moment I don't care if anyone thinks this is good, bad, the end of the Warhammer as we know it, or a new Renaissance of gaming. Not relevant.
But right now, in the current codex from the beginning of 9th edition. Codex Necrons has rules for the army from pages 51 to 69. It pauses for crusade rules (which we aren't counting), and then pages 80 & 81 explain abilities like living metal, reanimation protocols and command protocols. So 20 pages of rules. OK?
In 10th there will not be 20 pages of rules for any specific necron army. When someone brings a 'necron elimination force' (or whatever) to the table, there will be 2 pages. Can we grasp that 2 is less than 20? If that's seriously up for debate, then we can't have any sort of discussion about 10th edition until more information comes out. It simply isn't possible.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2023/03/31 02:24:34
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2023/03/31 02:50:48
Subject: 10th Edition Rumour Roundup - Now with unspectacular leaks of the 'Lion's Guard' box!
I mean, there has to be general army rules (Synapse seems like it would be), meaning that:
1. There is another page that has general army rules (Synapse, ATSKNF, Disgustingly Resilient), meaning it's not really 2 pages, it's 2 pages plus the standard rules for your army. Or...
2. Every 2 page army reprints the same rules over and over again, wasting space that could've been used for more options/flavour/fun. Or...
3. Only certain 2 page armies will get the iconic rules (only one type of Death Guard army gets Disgustingly Resilient), and that results in the situation you're talking about. Or...
4. They reprint these rules, in full, on every single data sheet, somewhat defeating the purpose of universal special rules (and increasing the chances of mistakes).
I agree that there should be a central source for the rules that govern your army, but that could easily turn into repeated instances of the same rules and a lot of wasted space. Or it could lead to weird situations where basic army rules that we've had for years get split up between weird arbitrary formations (Gladius Strike Force armies get ATSKNF, and only Deathwing armies get Deathwing rules, even if you take Deathwing units in a non-Deathwing army...).
It also greatly depends on the amount formations there will be. I mean the concept of a 1st Company formation for all Marines sounds great, but will there be an Armoured Company formation for Guard? It's already been pointed out in the general 40k discussion thread that the 3 of anything/6 of battleline & transports things breaks certain armies (how do you do Mechanised Guard if you can't bring more than 6 Chimeras? I own 12 Chimeras, so... am I just gak outta luck, or will there be a Mechanised Infantry formation that lets me take one transport for every infantry/battleline unit?). What if most Codices end up like the current WE one: The basic list, and then one that's led by a Special Character, and that's it? What if the only way to play actual Chapters/Legions/etc. rather than a giant blanket of 'Counts As' is to bring a mandatory special character?
And you think that this new system won't create lots of redundancies and repeated rules?
Oh, right. Synapse. How the frig are they going to fit that? I get the diagrams can probably go, but I almost feel like synapse won't stay like it is. That or it becomes a sort of USR, but would they locate it in core rules?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
cody.d. wrote: It does make that WS difference feel more important. WS5 vs WS4 makes it feel like an up hill struggle for the WS4. Having something like WS8 against WS4 makes it feel like a mountain! Which is much like the scenario envisioned, how is a rank and file mook managing to get through the guard of someone like the lion? Well a little luck helps.
That sort of dynamic is really hard to balance especially when your army might not possess any sort of melee specialist leaving you at a disadvantage.
Obviously there are lots of things that are fluffy and interesting that won't make the cut. I really liked the WS table ( mostly because I took a few WS8/9 models quite often ), but it can be problematic at times for the have-nots.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/03/31 02:54:59
2023/03/31 03:00:43
Subject: 10th Edition Rumour Roundup - Now with unspectacular leaks of the 'Lion's Guard' box!
Oh, right. Synapse. How the frig are they going to fit that?
Not sure if serious. Current synapse rules are weird but its super easy to go back to "Synapse: unit gains fearless if within X" of synapse creature" Or in this particular edition, 'skip morale checks if in synapse range.'
it can very easily revert to being a 1 sentence rule.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/03/31 03:01:23
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2023/03/31 03:02:28
Subject: 10th Edition Rumour Roundup - Now with unspectacular leaks of the 'Lion's Guard' box!
cody.d. wrote: It does make that WS difference feel more important. WS5 vs WS4 makes it feel like an up hill struggle for the WS4. Having something like WS8 against WS4 makes it feel like a mountain! Which is much like the scenario envisioned, how is a rank and file mook managing to get through the guard of someone like the lion? Well a little luck helps.
That sort of dynamic is really hard to balance especially when your army might not possess any sort of melee specialist leaving you at a disadvantage.
Obviously there are lots of things that are fluffy and interesting that won't make the cut. I really liked the WS table ( mostly because I took a few WS8/9 models quite often ), but it can be problematic at times for the have-nots.
That is part of the charm of an asymmetrical wargame surely? Not having melee specialists or having to go up against someone who is better at something than you are and working around it by playing to your own strengths.
But, I do concede that yeah, it makes things harder to balance.
Bloody hell I don't know how to format posts here.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/31 03:15:26
2023/03/31 03:19:07
Subject: 10th Edition Rumour Roundup - Now with unspectacular leaks of the 'Lion's Guard' box!
Oh, right. Synapse. How the frig are they going to fit that?
Not sure if serious. Current synapse rules are weird but its super easy to go back to "Synapse: unit gains fearless if within X" of synapse creature" Or in this particular edition, 'skip morale checks if in synapse range.'
it can very easily revert to being a 1 sentence rule.
Apologies - I was thinking of synaptic link ( but also how they handle repetition of rules ).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/31 03:28:01
~4100
~1660
Ultramarines, 3rd Co. and friends, 16k+ 
4k 
4k Points
Competition Index
Blue DP Crusade 126-11-6 
Biel-Tan Aspect Waves 2-0-2 
Looted Green Horde smash your face in 32-7-8 
Broadside/Shield Drone/Kroot blitz goodness 23-3-4 
Grey Hunters galore 17-5-5 
Khan Bikes Win 63-1-1 
Tanith with Pardus Armor 11-0-0 
Crimson Tide 59-4-0 
Green/Raven/Deathwing 18-0-0 
Jumping GK force with Inq. 4-0-0 
BTemplars w LRs 7-1-2 
IH Legion with Automata 8-0-0 
RG Legion w Adepticon medal 6-0-0 