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So, on a dare from one of my marine buddies I built a guard unit/synergistic grouping that is effective in close combat and can be used for other things:

PCS 30 points (needed for next step equip as desired)

Platoon Infantry Squads x 4(200)
Power Weapons x 4 (40)
Comissar w PW (45)
Priest (45)

Creed in a CCS 140

500 points add other stuff as needed. Now lets get those guys into some CC!

Give em the GOC order from Creed so they get their furious on and Mathammer to the rescue!

Power Weapon attacks on the charge: 20 WS3
= 15 hits (rerolling using rhetoric) at initiative 4
= 7.5 Wounds/dead marines terminators whatever

Non PW attacks on the charge: 72
= 52 hits (same as above)
= 26 Wounds
=8.6 failed armor saves for marines or 4.5

So on the charge that's 16.1 dead marines or 11 Dead terminators

lets say you lost half your strength getting to them (yay comissar for stubborn) you still get 11.8 dead marines and 9.75 dead terminators

If you get charged your numbers still aren't bad.
We'll look at assault marines attacking fresh:
Pre charge bolt pistol is 10 shots,
=6.6 hits
=4.4 dead guards

Assault is 34 attacks
=22.4 Hits
=14.8 wounds
=9.7 dead guardsmen

Guard turn:
Power Weapon attacks: 15 WS3
= 7.5 hits
= 2.5 Wounds/dead marines terminators whatever

Regular attacks:25
= 12.5 hits
=4.1 wounds
=1.4 dead marines

Guards kill 3 lose combat by 6 stick it out without killing a sarge 72% of the time.
Second round less guards more marines killed, guard win for sure in round 3.

Lesson is charge with them, but still good trick to have when your opponent thinks your only close is Ogryn and we all know they suck.

now factor in the 2 flamers said assault squad will likely have. Who uses assault squads anyways? Also are you using th/ss terminators for your comparison? The 3+ invulnerable save will make a difference in your power weapon wound comparison.

As well you are comparing 500 points of guard to 200 or so of marines. What happens when the other 300 points of marines show up?

After fighting IG blob squads w/ commissars with my marines I will admit they can be a pain to get rid of in assault. But a few flamers and bolter shots and they become much more manageable.

I wouldn't dare build an IG cc list, but I like the idea of Colonel Straken backing up a 5 Squad blob with a commissar. This weekend I had a 3 squad blob hold up against DE wyches for 3 rounds of combat until they were killed to the man. If that was backed up with FC and Counter-charge I could have held my own.

Straken is key if you want a good CC squad. His F-Charge bubble eliminates the need for Creed to use an order and what's more, he has an S6 (7 on the charge) chainfist that strikes at initiative 3 (4 on the charge). Not bad at all if you ask me, and he's got a choice of blasting a marine with his plasma pistol or, for weaker targets, a shotgun.

Although it's a nifty gimmick, really, I shudder at the amount of things that absolutely wreck this squad. Land Speeders, any sort of massed templates or blasts, and even just mech in general give them a terrible day.

I think you'll get one or two nice OMGWTFPWN moments with them, which will make for a great story, but it's so easy for the metagame to completely nullify that 500 point investment.

I don't really see the point in things like this.

You could argue almost any army can be somewhat effective at any aspect of the game (which is really cool when you think about it) So the fact that you make a guard army do something cool in CC does not impress most people.

You use the word effective.. By effective you mean throwing a ton of points in order for guard to do something that they are very hindered at when for the same amount of points could afford a unit that (if shooting) would far surpass the cababilities of said CC unit.

Sorry but I dont see getting the milage out of this and so i'm not impressed. Vet sgts with PF or PW is about as affordable as it gets in my eyes.

We do it because it's fun. We play the game to have fun. That's what games are for.

Anyone remember close orders drill from the last codex. If you setup like that doctrine with the priest and shoot the crap out of anything coming at you followed by some grenades to the head or flamers to the face followed by this or Straken it can be effective. Do not however design a list around close combat like this. This is just a way to prevent close combat benefits and cut the feet out from under your opponent when in times of need. When it comes to being a guardsman your lasgun is your best friend, not your bayonet.

the new ogryns don't suck..use and you'll find out

Can you clarify a bit, freddieyu1?

They last longer, they are walking short range heavy bolters, and they did very well in the game I used them....

If you look at other threads (warseer, boot camp) you will find others who have used ogryns have been pleasantly surprised (me included)....essentially they can handle or delay most things except dread walkers and all a14 vehicles...but against most infantry, vehicles with s10 rear armor, they can pull surprises..BUT, they should be mounted in a chimera, and fight supported..you just don't throw them to a flank and expect miracles...

remember, it is not a tit for tat I have to kill more models than they cost, as claiming objectives is in many cases the condition, so if they can delay/disrupt, or rescue a line from an impending assault so that the rest of the army can work, then fine..ogryns are as close to the sturdiest thing to wipe out in an IG army (unless shot at or killed by s10 guns or dreadnought CCWs), with the exception of combined IG squads with a commissar, and the points cost for those are close to a 5 man ogryn unit anyway)...or better yet have both in the list...

while I personally love the CC guard idea I think it works best in higher point cost games. Because in 1500 - 1750 games you can't get enough fire power to support the CC line. Ogryns are a perfect example too expensive to be truly effective in smaller games, but in 2500 points they are totally worth it.

That being said I still prefer creed over straacken, simply because of tactical genius. Have an outflanking blob of 30 - 50 guys with priest and PWS and you have a CC unit that is scoring that can pop up anywhere and get into combat without being shot at is worth it. Or you could take Al'Rahiem, and have another entirely outflanking platoon. I see stracken's ability used more as a counter charge ability. Have a small blob squad with commissar in front of tanks, enemies get close and bam hit them with the unit. Just my personal preference that is all.

Um, in order to get 4 platoon command squads, you'd need to buy a total of 8 infantry squads, which is 400 points right there.

Furthermore, you cannot blob Platoon Command Squads together, so you'd have to get 4 Priests, and 4 Commissars.

So, before you start factoring in weapons, OR Creed, you have 890 points on the table.

Sorry, dude.

It's time's like this that the difference between effective and efficient is really pronounced.

I've actually been running something similar at 2,000 or 2,250 points, with Straken and a 5-squad blob. The blob is Comissar with PW, 5x Sarge with PW, and a Priest with Evis. It works reasonably well; I had the squad roll over a squad of Assault Termies, Vulkan, and a Librarian in around two turns of combat, for example. More then templates or whatever you fear opponents with lots of attacks and better initiative -- Genestealers for example, or maybe Orks. (The other scary thing is a Wraithlord, who will get into CC and stay there forever, tying up your 400 pts with his 120.)

From my experience the trick is to build the rest of the army to be as shooty as possible. If it's an objective mission, throw the huge blob forward and sit on one of them. With 1,500 points remaining you can still build a pretty good firebase with LRs, melta squads, artillery, or whatever you prefer. I've found it to work best against marines or chaos, and worst against fully Mech Eldar or Tau, or other Guard with full shooting.

That said, at 1,500 pts I don't think I'd try it, it's too big a chunk of the army.

It seems to me that you would be much better served, in CC as well as shooting, by 10 Grey Knight Terminators, which also (IIRC) cost less than this 400 point "mega" blob.

Ogiwan wrote:Um, in order to get 4 platoon command squads, you'd need to buy a total of 8 infantry squads, which is 400 points right there.

Furthermore, you cannot blob Platoon Command Squads together, so you'd have to get 4 Priests, and 4 Commissars.

So, before you start factoring in weapons, OR Creed, you have 890 points on the table.

Sorry, dude.

What are you talking about here? 4 Infantry squads. 1 PCS (Platoon Command Squad). RTFP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fetterkey wrote:It seems to me that you would be much better served, in CC as well as shooting, by 10 Grey Knight Terminators, which also (IIRC) cost less than this 400 point "mega" blob.

YRI. A 10 strong squad of GKT costs 475. But it gets an average of 5 more kills on the charge. So probably worth it.

pneumatichorseman wrote:
What are you talking about here? 4 Infantry squads. 1 PCS (Platoon Command Squad). RTFP.

Whoops, I misread. My bad.

Cheese Elemental wrote:We do it because it's fun. We play the game to have fun. That's what games are for.

Oh shoot.. I must have clicked "40k funny stuff to run"

I was trying to click on "40k tactics"

Darn it! I always do that!

Common mistake, happens to everyone!

archite666 wrote:

Cheese Elemental wrote:We do it because it's fun. We play the game to have fun. That's what games are for.

Oh shoot.. I must have clicked "40k funny stuff to run"

I was trying to click on "40k tactics"

Darn it! I always do that!

Don't be a smartass. You and I both know we play this game of little toy soldiers for fun. If it weren't fun, we wouldn't be playing it. If it weren't for fun, why would our paychecks disappear whenever we visit a FLGS? 40k Tactics is really "40k Tactics for this addicting game of maneuvering toy soldiers about a battlefield that most of us find fun". Cheese is right. This is a game we play purely for fun, be it enjoying painting, modelling, or devising plans to make them win.

If you're going to flame Cheese (as so many are wont to do) at least do it such a way you don't look like a tool yourself.

And I'm no English teacher, but fun and funny have two very different meanings... Feel free to follow this link
http://dictionary.reference.com/

If you don't want to click on that, I'll summarize it for you.
"Damn, whooping Necrons is fun."
"I saw your post and I thought it was funny."

Rico.

Re: Fetterkey -- actually, I'm pretty sure the 50-man guard blob with PW and stubborn would beat down equal points worth of GK terminators. The huge amount of extra bodies provides a ton of survivability.

As for shooting, it's hard to compare directly because it depends on target. Vs. MEQs, storm bolters are 12 shots-per-kill, and lasguns are 18. You get 20 storm bolter shots from ten terminators. Even at 24" with no orders, you get 50 lasgun shots -- that's more kills. (And at close range with FRFSRF, 150 shots = 8.3 marine kills.)

Upgrading Guard for melee combat, wait until H.B.M.C. hears of this one.

Brace for impact!

Oh you know he'll just love the idea!

Rico wrote:

archite666 wrote:

Cheese Elemental wrote:We do it because it's fun. We play the game to have fun. That's what games are for.

Oh shoot.. I must have clicked "40k funny stuff to run"

I was trying to click on "40k tactics"

Darn it! I always do that!

Don't be a smartass. You and I both know we play this game of little toy soldiers for fun. If it weren't fun, we wouldn't be playing it. If it weren't for fun, why would our paychecks disappear whenever we visit a FLGS? 40k Tactics is really "40k Tactics for this addicting game of maneuvering toy soldiers about a battlefield that most of us find fun". Cheese is right. This is a game we play purely for fun, be it enjoying painting, modelling, or devising plans to make them win.

If you're going to flame Cheese (as so many are wont to do) at least do it such a way you don't look like a tool yourself.

And I'm no English teacher, but fun and funny have two very different meanings... Feel free to follow this link
http://dictionary.reference.com/

If you don't want to click on that, I'll summarize it for you.
"Damn, whooping Necrons is fun."
"I saw your post and I thought it was funny."

Rico.

Lol I would respond to each part of this in turn, but as your obviously not a English teacher being that you fail at reading comprehension.

I won't have to break each part of this delightfully arrogant and ironic post, for the simple fact that my comment was not based on the overall reasons why I play this game but rather where this thread was posted.

Truth be told it does not say "viable tactics" but I believe everyone assumes the information presented herein would be beneficial rather than "run around randomly and kill things"

I'm not insulting the OP, rather I feel that this thread under another column would have been more appropriate.

In closing I find the reaction I got out of you with a few simple words very amusing. It reminds me of those feeder ponds where you put in a quarter to get some fish food then throw it into the lake and watch the horde of catfish pile on top of each other to eat it.

Eat fishy eat.

ketsugami wrote:Re: Fetterkey -- actually, I'm pretty sure the 50-man guard blob with PW and stubborn would beat down equal points worth of GK terminators. The huge amount of extra bodies provides a ton of survivability.

As for shooting, it's hard to compare directly because it depends on target. Vs. MEQs, storm bolters are 12 shots-per-kill, and lasguns are 18. You get 20 storm bolter shots from ten terminators. Even at 24" with no orders, you get 50 lasgun shots -- that's more kills. (And at close range with FRFSRF, 150 shots = 8.3 marine kills.)

Keep in mind that there is no longer combat res bonus for outnumbering, thus making it quite possible for a handful of models to beat that 50 man blob. In another thread somebody ran the numbers for a Chaplain killing 50 screaming conscripts, and it's actually feasible.

Concerning shooting, yes, 18 Lasguns to put down a Marine, and 36 to put down a Terminator.

Regarding combat resolution, this sort of blob almost always has Yarrick or a commissar Lord for fearless/Ld10 Stubborn.

Now, with that said, these sorts of blob squads look okay on paper, but getting 50 models into close combat is basically impossible. Ork players with 30 boyz often can't get all 30 into combat; 50 is a pipe dream.

Blobs also get eaten alive by templates and blasts, and are hella slow and unwieldy.

Yes, it can have its uses, but I'd rather have two Executioners.

sourclams wrote:Regarding combat resolution, this sort of blob almost always has Yarrick or a commissar Lord for fearless/Ld10 Stubborn.

Now, with that said, these sorts of blob squads look okay on paper, but getting 50 models into close combat is basically impossible. Ork players with 30 boyz often can't get all 30 into combat; 50 is a pipe dream.

Blobs also get eaten alive by templates and blasts, and are hella slow and unwieldy.

Yes, it can have its uses, but I'd rather have two Executioners.

It think this is really the most important point to consider, its one thing to mathhammer out one squads assault, but trying to use that same tactic on a unit that is so very difficult to maneuver on that actual table is another. The other thing to consider is that if the blob succesfully kills its target it is now a gigantic template magnet.

I have watch one space marine combat squad with a flamer but the wood to a 30 ork mob that just killed its transport ( and is thus nicely set up for flamer annihilation) When you consider how popular template weapons have become due to the profusion of cover in 40k you can see how often that 51 man ( assuming a single commisar) points black hole quiclky goes up in a puff of smoke.

Re: beating a giant blob in combat, it happens pretty often, but even a regular 35 pt Comissar provides Ld 9 re-rollable stubborn, so they'll almost never run. As for getting the whole thing into combat, it's not really neccesarry -- just make sure all your power weapon guys are at the front, and take casualties from the back.

Templates definitely are the biggest concern, esp. Heavy Flamers. You have to either avoid them or kill them with the rest of the army (or assault them). If you kill your target, use your consolidate move to spread out as much as you can.

From my games with it so far, the one army that managed to put out enough blast fire to seriously screw with me was a tyranid deathspitter/BS list. Another Guard army geared that way would also be challenging.

I just want to see who gets here first: H.B.M.C or the mods.