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When the new Chaos Codex came out, the Daemon options became laughably poor. A 5+ Invul is pretty poor, and these guys can die quite easily to large amounts of firepower.

But, like everything in the codex, it DOES, believe it or not, have a few nifty applications.

Firstly, let's look at the statline:

Lesser Daemons

With the same basic statline of a Marine, with higher Ld and more Attacks, these Daemons have the potential to look quite fierce on paper. Now, in reality, the 5+ Invuls don't make them last very long, but when used correctly I've found that they can get the job done. I take them in squads of 8, any more and your wasting points.

Some of my favorite Tactics with Lesser Daemons are as follows:

"Daemon Bomb": An old tactic from the old 'dex, I use a squad of Infiltrated Chosen (Or anything that can get close to the enemy, take your pick) and Summon your Daemons behind Enemy lines. These Daemons can then tie up a unit of Devastators, Battlesuits, etc.

"Swamp Assassination": Similar to the Daemon Bomb, I use this tactic to swarm a target: (Cadian Command Squads in particular, though it also works with other small units) with a decent CC unit and back it up with a unit of Chaos Marines, Terminators, Whatever. This is great against Cadian Command Squads, whose CC ability is marginal.

Greater Daemons

Much, much better than Lesser Daemons, the Greater Daemon has a number of roles.

"Close Combat Monster": 5 Attacks with no armor save is nothing to sneeze at, and with it's relatively low point cost, it's almost a steal.

"Daemon Bomb 2.0": Greater Daemons are quite scarier than Lesser Daemons (Hence the Name) and when used in Daemon Bomb they can potentially rip tanks apart with their Strength of 6. Most other Squads don't even stand a chance in Close Combat.

I hope this helps someone.

I also think lesser daemons are pretty good. I like the generic greater daemon as well but I wish he was I5.

G

My daemons are my ace in the hole. They get a bad rap from the same people who yell stuff like "zoarse! CSM don't have as many powers as Cult troops! CSM suck!!1"

I've examined CSM Daemon options and dismissed them for my own personal playstyle. They show up randomly via Reserves, which isn't so bad, but being completely unable to crack transports makes them a marginal unit, and lacking any sort of shooting abilities firmly entrenches them into a subpar category. For 2 more points you can get a guy with the same close combat ability, better armor, and guns. If they were 8-10 points per model, I think you could make a very strong argument for their inclusion. At 13, they're just grossly underpowered compared to a basic CSM.

Sure, there are situations where the Daemon Bomb will work, and in a few select situations they might even work better than CSM, but overall they're just a point sink.

The thing that makes them worth the extra 5-3 points is their ability to assault of the Deepstrike. The unit just shows up and rushes the enemy. Think of those extra points as the price of a Rhino being built in, as they are basically being transported up the field. The largest benefit I've found to them is that the enemy can't stop or predict where they come in, as apposed to regular Marines where they know where they are and can kill them. Lesser Daemons get to come in where ever your opponent doesn't want, bostlering your line, acting as speed bumps or tilting a conflict with the extra swings. If you do it right, they have no time to react. The Lesser Daemons (and Greater) just show up and they are stuck in.

DarkHound wrote:The largest benefit I've found to them is that the enemy can't stop or predict where they come in, as apposed to regular Marines where they know where they are and can kill them.

You're only half right; your enemy knows exactly where they come in, as they must deep strike off of an icon. With liberal use of icons on CSM and bikes you may create 3-4 potential drop sites, but your options are still limited. It's true that when they arrive is unpredictable, however this this applies to you as well as your opponent. If they drop in on turn 2 and the nearest enemy is 18" away, you effectively wasted points on a shoddy assault unit. Likewise positioning yourself to make sure that you *could* get an assault on turn 2 if necessary may overextend your army, sacrificing the icon unit to concentrated firepower.

Finally, in mech-heavy 5th ed, not having any sort of transport killing shooting to get at the juicy bits inside means that a lot of Lesser Daemons' time is going to be spent knocking on invulnerable transports, waiting to get shot up on the next turn.

Yes, they aren't a bread and butter unit for sure. I don't need them as units to pop transports. I have other units for that, but what I need are expendable units. Mostly their job entails some variation of meatshield. They aren't so much an assault unit, as a unit that can show up in assault. They tie up assault specialists and tie down enemy guns. They soak fire with their 5++ (although not very well). The rest of my list has weapons to deal with threats, and my biggest problem tends to be from assault (Chaos Marines not built for assault, heh heh), so the cheap flexible buffer they give my list is invaulable.

This same philosophy is apparent in pure Tzeentchian lists that utilize lessers, where they are starved for bodies. If you can stick some Lessers between those Berserkers before they can do anything about it, then the Berserkers will be stuck in a useless combat and open to your AP3 goodness the next turn. They are meatshields and fillers in those lists too, soaking up wounds that would have otherwise been wasted on an expensive Thousand Son or Tzeentch marked Marine.

EDIT: Oh yes, about where they come in; I have 4 or 5 Icons on the battlefield. Yes, he knows where these are, but he can't be sure where I end up having my fodder come in. If he pushes too hard on any one section, I flood him with fodder and go for the win. I use them defensively, not Daemon Bombing. Even I know they are too weak for an assault like that. The Icons aren't being pressed into him offensively, but being held by my units to ward off combat. With a Greater Daemon, this isn't an empty threat either, as he is probably the strongest unit for the points in this Codex.

13 ppm is simply too much for fodder, especially in an army like Chaos that doesn't require it; they have plenty of close range and assault units. If your biggest threat is from assaults, Lesser Daemons won't help much unless you have a really wonky list; any unit that can tear through CSM with little difficulty is going to shred the LDs.

Tzeentch lists are not competitive. Making a bad list slightly less bad really doesn't add much to a unit's vitae, and I'd question your claims that LDs can even slow down zerks (30 attacks, 20 hit, 10 wounds, 6-7 dead Daemons from attacks alone, another 4-5 lost to Fearless combat resolution, you just gave them a free consolidation d6 boost toward your line).

Without any way to delay their arrival, especially when playing defensively, you're just wasting the 3-5 ppm that you feel being able to assault off the deep strike is worth. If you require speed bump units, just take CSMs for 2 ppm more.

Well, I'm not saying its cutting edge cheese. I mean, I rant about the viability of Possessed for Nurgle's sake. There is a reason that they aren't appart of Dual Lash. You have to admit that they do give a flexibility of deployment that CSM don't have.

Yes, slowing down a unit of Khorne Berserkers is a bit of an exaggeration, but I was grabbing an assault unit off the top of my head. It probably wouldn't end well, but it does work well against Marines, Banshees, Kroot (yeah, they are lame anyway, but it DOES work), weakened squads of Boyz. Sometimes even Terminators if I'm feeling lucky. The 5+ invul means you want to engage units that would be carving through armor saves anyway, which is the ONLY thing my Plague Marines are killed by, thus the only things they need a speed bump from. It's the same principle behind my taking Possessed over Khorne Berserkers as shock troops. If it takes 2 extra Battlecannon rounds to drop the troops who are meant to run in and die, then I consider the extra points worth it.

If wonky is simply strange, then yes, my list is packed with exodic choices. There is something to be said for a force that the enemy never gets to practice against. It's got just enough of the same old song and dance, with some bottom of the bucket choices that just came together well for me. They may know the mechanics, but like playing against a Tomb Spyder list, you might not figure out how it all comes together until it's too late.

I used Lesser Daemons in the last game I played and they worked rather effectively (though might have been because I was making ridiculous rolls, I can pass that 5++ undaemons but heaven forbid I make the 2+ on my Termies...). In that game the managed to cause a guy to continuously pull his troops back to avoid getting charged which put them in better range for my Zerkers which eventually went on to use the daemons as a meat shield until i used them to stall a Wraith Lord.

The Greater Daemon was useless in the game...