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 IdentifyZero wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I pledged solely for the not-Serenity models and the high quality sculpts SMV is known for. I am really not a fan of that head.

If the previews turn out to be less than my expectations can I withdraw my pledge?

Nope, you are fethed if the concept art does not match expectations, so far, it has not.

If you check out: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/coolminiornot/sedition-wars-battle-for-alabaster/comments

Looks like the first few dozen comments primarily consist of complaints regarding the new sculpt. Can you imagine if the Firefly crew is messed up like this? Firefly fanbois and fangirls are insane.

Not so! There was a guy at my local the other day who was in that boat: he pledged mainly on the strength of the concept art and the LE resins, and so the Pilot was... not quite what he had in mind, heh. He sent a message to Cool Mini or Not through the Kickstarter message system explaining his issue, they immediately offered to cancel his pledge and refund his money.

According to him, it's pretty easy to get out of things, just ask and explain why you want out.

Personally, I think you should think hard about what exactly you want out of the pledge. Unlike Red-Box or Dreamforge, which are the efforts a single individual and so have unified scale, theme and style, Studio McV farms out the mini work to different artists. This is certainly the case with the kickstarter exclusives, which seem to have been farmed out to several people with different styles.

Something to think about if your pledge was on the strength of the concept art, rather then interest in the game-as-a-game.

My pledge was on the strength of the concept art in addition to the quality that SMV has shown previously. Having the game was a cool side effect.

I'm not sure it's cool enough if the not-Serenity crew doesn't live up to expectations.

The sculpt is a fine transfer from the drawing. People should really learn that you can`t transfer darwings 1:1 to greenstuff.

The mini is fine by industry-standards everything else is just a matter of taste.

The thread was closed done because some poeple were not able to adhere to the forum rules. Some even insulted others via PM. You agree to the forum rules when you register and you have to follow them. If you do not so, you get what you deserve.

Personally: It´s maybe better that some people cancel their pledges since they have a sense of entitelment that is absolutly whacko. (i.e. I gave you my money, now I have the right to behave like a mule...)

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
The sculpt is a fine transfer from the drawing. People should really learn that you can`t transfer darwings 1:1 to greenstuff.

The mini is fine by industry-standards everything else is just a matter of taste.

The thread was closed done because some poeple were not able to adhere to the forum rules. Some even insulted others via PM. You agree to the forum rules when you register and you have to follow them. If you do not so, you get what you deserve.

Personally: It´s maybe better that some people cancel their pledges since they have a sense of entitelment that is absolutly whacko. (i.e. I gave you my money, now I have the right to behave like a mule...)

I think many, like the above poster, pledged based on concept art and the extras rather than being huge fans of Sedition Wars.

I will avoid critical feedback or dissection of the Sedition Wars universe, which is nothing unique or special to get excited about.

Most of us were excited about Sedition Wars because of the prior quality of Studio McVey releases. I believe many of us, expected the same here.

It is good to hear that CMON is allowing people to cancel.

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
The sculpt is a fine transfer from the drawing. People should really learn that you can`t transfer darwings 1:1 to greenstuff.

Everything but the head is fine. I can't stand that head.

The mini is fine by industry-standards everything else is just a matter of taste.

So "fine" is cool for SMV? You don't expect higher quality?

Personally: It´s maybe better that some people cancel their pledges since they have a sense of entitelment that is absolutly whacko. (i.e. I gave you my money, now I have the right to behave like a mule...)

Yes, it's a sense of entitlement for thinking quality should not go down from your average when a purchase is made.

I would understand your whining better if you would have payed 10-20 dollar for this miniature, considering it's "price" I can´t understand it.

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
The sculpt is a fine transfer from the drawing. People should really learn that you can`t transfer darwings 1:1 to greenstuff.

The mini is fine by industry-standards everything else is just a matter of taste.

It seemed to me that the real problem was one of comparison. They previewed a total of 3 of the kickstarter exclusive miniatures, the Doctor, the woman-with-child and the Pilot. The first two were done by the same guy that does the limited edition resins. And they looked like... things done by a guy that does limited edition resins that go for $25 a piece.

The other one was... "fine by industry-standards".

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
The thread was closed done because some poeple were not able to adhere to the forum rules. Some even insulted others via PM. You agree to the forum rules when you register and you have to follow them. If you do not so, you get what you deserve.

Personally: It´s maybe better that some people cancel their pledges since they have a sense of entitelment that is absolutly whacko. (i.e. I gave you my money, now I have the right to behave like a mule...)

I dunno, I remember reading it at the time, the guy that seemed most out of whack (as in, making nonsensical arguments) was a whiteknight (that is, arguing that everything was fine). I'm also not completely sure how closing an open thread stops people from sending PMs... moving on.

The most fascinating thing about all of this to me is the way Kickstarter can become a problem through success. With the incredible drive to put more stuff up for people to consume as quickly as possible, companies end up making promises that they can't necessarily follow through on, or, perhaps put another way, they create unrealistic expectations.

Like was mentioned above, the Pilot sculpt is fine by industry standards. If it was a GW sculpt, it would be above average. But the people who pledged had a higher expectation, and the limited communication post-kickstarter, I think it's going to get messier before it gets better. The strange refusal on the part of the studio to simply list who ended up doing what is particularly puzzling to me, but I'm sure there is some reason.

 notprop wrote:


One thread closed = Studio McVey is GW

One miniature which isn't a carbon copy of the concept sketch = I wish I never pledged that Kickstarter/Studio McVey is off my Christmas card list.

Feth me you lot make me laugh sometimes. Seriozz bidnezz indeed.

Ill tell you what makes me laugh.. When people say ridiculously mad paranoid gak about GW, in the same post they support McVey.

At least I am uniform in what I have said all along..

Mother fethers take the hobby far too seriously.. be it GW, McVey, Drop Zone commander or anything else.. I really cant believe some of the nuts gak I read on here, and how much grown men complain about their toys.

In fact, am I missing something? Is it another sculpt I havent seen that has seen people cancel their orders? Or are people actually super pissed about that perfectly acceptable, nicely sculpted female mechanic who now has normal sized legs?

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
I would understand your whining better if you would have payed 10-20 dollar for this miniature, considering it's "price" I can´t understand it.

That's a silly rebuttal, and you'll note that the Studio doesn't use it. If you sell a premium product, it is not unreasonable to expect the lagnappe to be of similar quality. It's simply bizarre to have a part of a package deal be of lesser quality (which you implicitly acknowledge) simply because it's not itemized separately.

I probably just don't understand. The sculpt is still better than the female industry standard at 28mm. Did people pledging not realize that the standard for their studio is larger than the 28mm size? Do people pledging not consider that 1:1 from concept to sculpt generally isn't possible?

I do feel like there are a few people, here and on their boards, that fall into that unpleasable crowd. Just get the refund since they are offering it and be done with it. Personally I like the minor changes to the model from the concept art. If I didn't however I probably wouldn't be crying foul over a single model that was a free addition but hey, I'm easy that way. Granted I haven't seen a single "free" model I don't like though so maybe that could change

It is a valid rebuttal to someone that whines about a FREE mini that is still considerably above industry standard. Also, there is not much of a difference with regard to the other minis.

If you just told us it is not to your taste... I would have understood and acapted it without further ado. The way you are now "accusing" McVey and Co I can´t accept.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Just get the refund since they are offering it and be done with it.

Exactly.

Its like Ive said all along, I occasionally get annoyed about things, we all do. But its generally actually important things.. you know.. that actually effect the world? Wars, economics, Islamonazi's attacking an embassy and murdering people.. but the hobby?!

I dislike all kinds of things about the hobby, so its forgotten, because its just a hobby. I don't make a blog about how much I dislike Twilight, or Nickelback, or stamp collectors. Or make an inflammatory thread about Jervis Johnsons beard. I just don't get tumultuous nerd-rage about an almost totally inconsequential thing like a painting hobby.

If you want to cancel your pledge to McVey, knock yourself out.. but don't bore the fething tits off everyone by VENTING about it on dakka.

To steal Nikes slogan, just do it.

 Hulksmash wrote:
I probably just don't understand. The sculpt is still better than the female industry standard at 28mm. Did people pledging not realize that the standard for their studio is larger than the 28mm size? Do people pledging not consider that 1:1 from concept to sculpt generally isn't possible?

The problem though is that that isn't the issue. It's not a question of "there is loss from concept to model", it's that the first concepts were faithfully transferred.

The 3rd mini isn't bad, it's just noticeably not up to the standard set by the preciously previewed pieces. One big reason seems to be that they aren't done by the same guy. Which seems a pretty obvious reason.

Hey, I don't have a dog in this hunt. But yeah, I would agree, if you pledged on the strength of the concept art, proceed from here with the understanding that there will be pretty big variations in how that is interpreted.

What's wrong with her face? Is it bad because she isn't white any more? I don't get it.

 Hulksmash wrote:
I probably just don't understand. The sculpt is still better than the female industry standard at 28mm. Did people pledging not realize that the standard for their studio is larger than the 28mm size? Do people pledging not consider that 1:1 from concept to sculpt generally isn't possible?

I agree that the sculpt is decent. Yes, I realize that they normally do larger minis. Yes, I understand that 1:1 from concept to sculpt isn't generally possible.

I'm not a fan of the way this specific mini made it from concept to sculpt. The body is fine. I've bolded that because people seem to think I'm (and others) are getting hung up with "It's more realistic proportions". I'm not.

I don't care for the face.

I do feel like there are a few people, here and on their boards, that fall into that unpleasable crowd. Just get the refund since they are offering it and be done with it. Personally I like the minor changes to the model from the concept art. If I didn't however I probably wouldn't be crying foul over a single model that was a free addition but hey, I'm easy that way. Granted I haven't seen a single "free" model I don't like though so maybe that could change

a) It's not free - I had to pledge for the kickstarter. If they hadn't made the money they did and I was complaining about a different model that was integral to the set would it somehow be more valid?
b) I'm not going to cancel my pledge over this mini. As I've said there's a specific set that I'd like to see. If they don't live up to my expectations of being similar (note: not the same) to the concept art and overall high quality then I'll cancel my pledge and take the refund.

Why is it such a big deal to pay for a service, be displeased at the outcome, and wonder if you can get your money back?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
What's wrong with her face? Is it bad because she isn't white any more? I don't get it.

No, it's not that at all.
I just don't care for the way it came out. It's hard to explain because taste is so subjective but... I just really dislike it. And apparently I'm not the only one.

@rigeld2

But it is free. The kickstarter did not originally include this model. The original biohazard set didn't even have this on the horizon. Ergo, it was above and beyond the original offering for no additional expense from you. So, free.

I understand your issue is with the face. For me I actually like the face more on the body as a slimmer face wouldn't have matched up as well I think. But that's opinion and you're totally entitled to yours.

I don't think it's a big deal to be displeased with a service and ask for a refund. I do think it's a bit hyperbole to do it over 1 model of over 100. But that's me

I think people should state their dislike or opinion on it once and leave it alone. And other people should be mature enough to accept that opinion.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
What's wrong with her face? Is it bad because she isn't white any more? I don't get it.

Does this help? The problem is that the shape of the jaw, the size of the lips and the shape of the area between the chin and the lips are more like a man's face and less like a woman's face.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
What's wrong with her face? Is it bad because she isn't white any more? I don't get it.

It is mainly the difference between the concept art and the preview sculpt.

No one has brought up your particular point that I'm aware of though - so throwing that particular grenade into the room is a little much...

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
What's wrong with her face? Is it bad because she isn't white any more? I don't get it.

Wow. Way to be a troll.

<rant>

And to those wanting to take back their pledge because a sculpt or two isn't an example of McVey's best works, get over it. You're getting a money's arse-tonn of figures for a boardgame that you wouldn't have gotten had you waited to buy this via a retailer. Also, you're getting these figures in plastic which make them easy to work with or convert for other projects.

This project is still one of the very best I've seen on Kickstarter and despite the high heels and not so feminine face, I'm still more than happy to be receiving this figure in the collection. I don't like many of the sculpts that Mantic does yet I still supported their Kickstarter and most certainly won't be whining and demanding my money back the first time one of their figures doesn't quite match the drawings they posted. You want bad miniatures? Go dig up your father's old Grenadier half-ork warriors from the early 80s AD&D game line. Man, those things were total trash. But I digress.

This game and the figures are amazing, people. You get a hell of a lot for not a great amount of money, too. I suggest you haters and trolls get over yourselves and wish team McVey success in their project like I do. It's the best way to encourage them to try this again in the future and bring more great models to the market. And in the end, that's what we really want, isn't it?

</rant>

I now return you to your previously derailed Dakka discussion.

 Hulksmash wrote:
@rigeld2

But it is free. The kickstarter did not originally include this model. The original biohazard set didn't even have this on the horizon. Ergo, it was above and beyond the original offering for no additional expense from you. So, free.

That is nonsense. I'll put it this way: there are somewhere between fifteen and twenty-four Samaritans in the Biohazard set. If all beyond the first twelve were miscast, it would not be reasonable to say "Well, they were free so suck it up." Once Studio McVey made them a part of what was being offered at the Biohazard level, they were just as obligated to supply the new ones as the originals.

The concept art for Iron Lily, and the expectation that the sculpt would be of the quality associated with Studio McVey, is what pushed the Biohazard set from "not worth the money" over to "worth the money" for me. There is no excuse, morally or legally, for saying any part of the package doesn't count because it was not part of the initial offering.

Maybe if you think Jude Law is a masculine-looking man, I guess. It really doesn't look masculine to me. The chin might be deeper, but it is not "square" and neither is the jaw.

She looks a little like Rae Dawn Chong with Gwineth Paltrow's chin to me.

 Alpharius wrote:

It is mainly the difference between the concept art and the preview sculpt.

No one has brought up your particular point that I'm aware of though - so throwing that particular grenade into the room is a little much...

I could have sworn someone had. They were talking about the size of the lips and the shaped of the face in such a way that it made it clear what they meant. Maybe it was on another forum.

Duncan_Idaho wrote:I would understand your whining better if you would have payed 10-20 dollar for this miniature, considering it's "price" I can´t understand it.

Duncan_Idaho wrote:It is a valid rebuttal to someone that whines about a FREE mini that is still considerably above industry standard. Also, there is not much of a difference with regard to the other minis.

If you just told us it is not to your taste... I would have understood and acapted it without further ado. The way you are now "accusing" McVey and Co I can´t accept.

It's silly. If someone pledged because of the game, and only the game, then it's "free". If they pledged because the concept art captured their interest, then it's part of a package.

Also, what kind of a defense is "considerably above industry standard" (an assessment totally personal, of course)? This is a premium product from a studio that prides itself on excellence.

Like I've pointed out above, this is the peril of Kickstarter: it creates an atmosphere of expectations that cannot always be met, but which leaves people in a precarious situation. Most people seem to think that they cannot cancel their pledge at this point, and there is very little information out there letting them know that's not true. If not for a guy I happen to know, I wouldn't have know it was possible.

It doesn't seem possible to deny that some people that pledged, pledged because of items that existed only as concept art. They have flat out said so in this thread. If the realization of that concept isn't equal to their expectation, then they have a right to be upset.

It's their money. Money that went into someone else's pocket months ago, and only now are they finding out the product they paid for won't be what they expected. If the argument is that their expectations were unreasonable, it's an argument, but it goes nowhere; the reasonableness of someone's expectations of a product have no real bearing on their happiness with those expectations being met.

As I said above, it seems to be a problem, really most associated with the first batch of really big Kickstarters that blew up huge. The manufacturers had to scramble to get material up to feed the beast, and now people who have had their money gone and seeing that concept actually translates into.

It's a fascinating thing to ponder: imagine going into a restaurant and the chef saying "I never made this before, but it's X in the style of Y, interested?" In the end it's about two things, the faith you have in the chef, and your interest in the idea.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
@rigeld2

But it is free. The kickstarter did not originally include this model. The original biohazard set didn't even have this on the horizon. Ergo, it was above and beyond the original offering for no additional expense from you. So, free.

That is nonsense. I'll put it this way: there are somewhere between fifteen and twenty-four Samaritans in the Biohazard set. If all beyond the first twelve were miscast, it would not be reasonable to say "Well, they were free so suck it up." Once Studio McVey made them a part of what was being offered at the Biohazard level, they were just as obligated to supply the new ones as the originals.

This is actually nonsense. Your taking two completely different things and saying it's the same. A miscast would be a damaged model and would need to be replaced. But you know what the original models look like. Thanks to the pictures provided in the kickstarter. All the original models sculpts were presented so you knew what you were purchasing. It's a different issue that a model that is not integral to the game (i.e. not being sold outside of the kickstarter) doesn't match concept art for a free addition as a thank you for supporting the game.

I hope you can see the difference. Now, if only art had been presented for the contents of the original biohazard level and it didn't match the concept art in a way you approved then that's an understandable reason to pull your support. But that's not the case in the slightest.

**Edit**

If that single model is the reason you thought the purchase was worth it then by all means pull your support as it now no longer is. Again I can understand that but to me everything above the initail biohazard level is a thank you for your support which probably colors my impression of the whole thing

You are arguing from the position that Samaritans 13+ are valued at $0, that they are free because they were not part of the initial offer.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
What's wrong with her face? Is it bad because she isn't white any more? I don't get it.

Is it time to post the gif?

 Hulksmash wrote:
If that single model is the reason you thought the purchase was worth it then by all means pull your support as it now no longer is. Again I can understand that but to me everything above the initail biohazard level is a thank you for your support which probably colors my impression of the whole thing

One important thing to bare in mind here: if you pledged because of the various concept art pieces, it was confirmed (then Yezhov'd) that they were farmed out to multiple artists. So there will be some differences in style and interpretation.

For what my opinion worth.

1) Its not a "free" model the pledge level that achieved her and all the previous before it costed money, so collectively the model was payed for.

2) The model is generally good, the face has problems, is it enough to cancel the game? No, should it be mentioned and action be taken? I think yes, it downgrades the overall feeling of quality and standards Studio McVey has established for itself, of course the complete package will decide it, not a single model, so even if left as is if everything else turns out stellar, she will be "that odd model"

3) I think its illogical to compare a 2012 sculpt coming form a studio that has established itself for its high quality models to what mass production companies did in the 80s-90s.

To conclude, its a decent sculpt with obvious flaws and good parts, it would pass maybe unnoticed or even with some praise for some companies, but not in Studio McVey with the reputation they have established for themselves, the expectations from them are above "average" and "decent".

Now its up to them for what they will do, if they change it to better fine, if they do not, fine again, but will set a precedent.

Damn this thread is really hot now Both with the new Mcvey lted star wars cool thing that I must buy but dont have money for it and also the discussion...

As for the mini quality are you guys kidding me? The sculpt is techically freaking awesome sauce! It may not be to your tastes but hell if this is not a superb sculpt.

I would have to agree the face is not the best it could be, not bad, but definitely could be better.

Of course, more pics would be nice.

 Hulksmash wrote:
I don't think it's a big deal to be displeased with a service and ask for a refund. I do think it's a bit hyperbole to do it over 1 model of over 100. But that's me

I've said I'm not doing it on one model out of over 100.
I've said that "This sculpt displeases me. I hope the quality gets better by the time they do the ones I really want."

One bad sculpt? I don't care. Multiple bad sculpts, especially including the ones that are the only reason I jumped into the kickstarter? I'll take my money, thanks.

I do love the crabs... those are awesome.

I don't see how this miniature can make anyone wanting a refund... I mean the quality is really there for anyone looking at minis from a professional perspective... if you look at the mini and want it to fill EXACTLY what you have in your mind for it then well good luck with that.

Also concept sketches and 3d sculpts are different things and glad they are.