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This years lack of GT's has really rather bummed me out....I know there must be other tournament commando's out there that are hoping for GW to step it up and actually produce a venue for us to all get together and play again.

This year all I had to look forward to was Adepticon as the Waagghh and Necro were unavailable to me due to prior plans. No Baltimore GT this year killed much enthusiam that I had to get together with old friends and no Vegas compounded the issue for me even more. Just to get some tournament gaming in this year I'm going to hit Minicon at Raleigh in October in order to "get my fix".

Does anyone else out there have a "bad feeling" about GW producing? I really wonder whether they're going to get it together this year or not. We've yet to get a definitive yes/no from them and between their 'stance' about competetive gaming not being important and the global recession...well, it doenst really inspire confidence.

Are we looking at a death/decline in GT's? Is the community up to really keeping the competetive fire alive here in the United States without any real help from GW? Adepticon is great. Waagghh and Necro are established but each has "problems" according to some attendee's and Necro is even taking this next year off.

Its actually a dire situation for people like me, at least that's how I feel. Sure, I enjoy gaming at the FLGS but nothing compares to a full weekend packed with gaming and comraderie with guys you havent seen in a couple of months over Pints of Guiness.

It seems to me that GW finally made good on the "why are you hosting Tournaments if you don't intend 40k as a WAAC tournament game?" by simply stopping to host Tournaments.

In the mean time, as everybody and their brother said they could do a better job, GW got out of their way and let them.

Good job and good riddance.

I know, there's been a frightening lack of Wrecking Crew-related drama on the internet lately. 'Ard Boyz is the only thing I have to look forward to in order to get my fix.

But yes, it seems as if GW finally threw up its hands and said "feth it." GW seems to behave a lot like I do, rather than spend a little time and effort improving things they just give up so they don't have to work too hard.

This will lead to more and more indy GTs popping up.

Sidstyler wrote:I know, there's been a frightening lack of Wrecking Crew-related drama on the internet lately. 'Ard Boyz is the only thing I have to look forward to in order to get my fix.

Why thank you for the un needed/wanted and irrelevant jab at the WC.

I am sorry that you seem fixated on your hate for us, but can we please keep it on topic, thanx.

"Oh look...he's got a WC banner in his sig, NOW'S MY CHANCE!"


EDIT: Yea, and if you're going to quote someone, it helps to get the quote right to avoid confusion. We understand however, you're blinded by your irrational hatred of the WC. Seek help.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Good job and good riddance.

Yes, by all means, ignore what a decent percentage of your clientele want. Thats is after all a large part of the GW mantra right?

After all, tournaments werent a catalyst for anyone to build new armies or generate exitement in the hobby for anyone.

Deadshane1 wrote:
Yes, by all means, ignore what a decent percentage of your clientele want. Thats is after all a large part of the GW mantra right?

After all, tournaments werent a catalyst for anyone to build new armies or generate exitement in the hobby for anyone.

Tournie players are actually a very small part of the community. Your final sentence was wrong as it should say "were a catalyst for a few to build new armies"

Why put in some much effort for a part of the community you don't appreciate anyway and makes more noise than the rest of the community put together..

The other bit I don't get is: "This years lack of GT's has really rather bummed me out....I know there must be other tournament commando's out there that are hoping for GW to step it up and actually produce a venue for us to all get together and play again. "

Almost like GW is obliged to set these up for you? And the bolded bit actually shows that the community might even be smaller than I thought.

One company, one company producing decently sculpted fantasy and sci fi miniatures that can be fielded in half decent sized wars instead of skirmishes, produces a rulebook with tidy rules and commits it's self to tourneys...

C'mon, someone take the bloody throne, the king ain't dead but he's a dribbling senile, obese with profit and blinded with conceit. Some company come along and knock the bastard off his perch...

@DeadShane1: Chill dude, he took a jab but parry it a little. Don't let him troll you so hard.

Also, there has been a lack of WC drama... it are facts.

As for the actual topic at hand, I don't play in tournaments that often. The main reason being is that GW isn't interested in them and doesn't write their rules with the kind of clarity that can be used in that kind of setting. Hence their "d6 it!" policy with rules disputes and pretty bad unit balancing within each codex.

fullheadofhair wrote:

Tournie players are actually a very small part of the community. Your final sentence was wrong as it should say "were a catalyst for a few to build new armies"

Small part but a part nontheless. Also a part that spends money just like anyone else involved in this hobby.

Why put in some much effort for a part of the community you don't appreciate anyway and makes more noise than the rest of the community put together..

Same reason as gas stations have for putting a 'diesel' pump at one or more of their islands. Because there IS a demand, regardless of how big/small it is...its money to be had and clientele to satisfy.

The other bit I don't get is: "This years lack of GT's has really rather bummed me out....I know there must be other tournament commando's out there that are hoping for GW to step it up and actually produce a venue for us to all get together and play again

A LARGE part of my enjoyment in this hobby is getting together with friends that travel to tournement from other parts of the country. I'm not alone in this.

Almost like GW is obliged to set these up for you? And the bolded bit actually shows that the community might even be smaller than I thought.

They ARE obliged, they're a business, I'm a customer. If it wasnt for national tournements....I would've been gone a long time ago, along with several people I know. Maybe GW doesnt care about that dollar, but as a business, they should care about EVERY dollar...especially in these times.

Deadshane1 wrote:

They ARE obliged, they're a business, I'm a customer. If it wasnt for national tournements....I would've been gone a long time ago, along with several people I know. Maybe GW doesnt care about that dollar, but as a business, they should care about EVERY dollar...especially in these times.

What if they have made a choice that the costs of running these tournies actually outweight the benefits. Businesses aren't obliged to do anything for their customers - they ought to if they want to retain business but obviously they have decided they don't want to retain your business, and they are allowed to make that choice.

You purchase their product and then use in in a manner they don't agree with - why should they support its misuse. Now that is very tongue in cheek obviously.

fullheadofhair wrote:
What if they have made a choice that the costs of running these tournies actually outweight the benefits.

They don't, in the days of 3 or so GT's a year, it was known by and boasted by employees (of which I was one of) that the Baltimore GT used to actually pay for the other 2-3 tournaments to be held that year. Tournaments are profit, with minimal manpower needed.

Businesses aren't obliged to do anything for their customers - they ought to if they want to retain business but obviously they have decided they don't want to retain your business, and they are allowed to make that choice.

So as a business, they have decided that my dollar is unimportant. I wonder why they sell salads at McDonalds. Which company is wiser I wonder.

You purchase their product and then use in in a manner they don't agree with - why should they support its misuse. Now that is very tongue in cheek obviously.

Don't delude yourself, GW doesnt care what people do with their models...so long as they buy them. Ask any stockholder.

Sidstyler wrote:I know, there's been a frightening lack of Wrecking Crew-related drama on the internet lately. 'Ard Boyz is the only thing I have to look forward to in order to get my fix.

Quit trolling, you know better. Dragging this out is rude, immature, and irresponsible.

If you would like, I can email you a complete list of the Dakka rules again for your perusal. Or, you can just click the link to Rule #1 in my sig.

Sheesh.

From what I understand, GW will only be hosting 1 GT next year, in Vegas.

To qualify, you need to place at any of the indy GT's, like Adepticon etc.

Typeline wrote:@DeadShane1: Chill dude, he took a jab but parry it a little. Don't let him troll you so hard.

Also, there has been a lack of WC drama... it are facts.

...doesnt matter, as Iorek just pointed out, its totally against the rules.

Also, it has nothing at all to do with this rather valid subject.

What was the topic again

I think GW is wanting to make the GT's 'Grand' again. Why that would take a year of planning, I dunno, but they do a lot of things that baffle me.

I do believe that tournaments make money. Maybe not directly but everyone I know who goes to one makes an army specifically for it so that's $300-$800 per attendee easy.

GW is pulling the plug on these gatherings, it has been for a while, the cost for hosting was not high but it is most likely viewed as not cost effective by the people who sign off the expenses in the finance dept, people who are not part of the hobby and consider the demographic of 'older player, already spent their major contribution to the company in the last 10 years and most likely already adversarial/critical of the company' to be a poor outlet for this money. It is likely redirected at doing what GW's senior execs want it doing, latching into children to implant the hobby spending spree of the first 40k army, half completed second 40k army and the venture into fantasy army before deciding they miss the guns and space marines.

Look, not only do the shadowy overlords at GW consider the GTs a waste of money but the guys in the hobby and creative aspects of the company have moved even more to an adversarial position to tournaments. Jervis 'Standard Bearer of Bad Tidings' Johnson has repeated stated his dislike of the attitude of the competitive players.

Until something major happens at GW, like perhaps a board meeting when it's decided that tourneys could be really cool if they promoted them right and decided to formalise leagues and nationals and internationals, then I'm afraid the continued cutbacks are here to stay. The excuse of the economic climate has facilitated the bean counters to put a big red line through more people's fun and no one in senior positions in GW is inclined to stop it.

It's not hard to set up a convention or tournament.

It's hard work but it's not rocket science.

If GW let fall the torch, others can take it up.

Why respect the authority of a company that lets down its customers?

GW is in the business of making and selling toy soldiers, not running tournaments, so they really aren't letting their customers down.

I don't think the game is balanced enough for there to be a real tournament circuit the way Magic The Gathering is set up, or to have national rankings etc. In 3rd edition I could see it, but not anymore. There are too many weak armies for it to be so...heck, the signature "face" army isn't the one that wins the most....

KeithGatchalian wrote:

GW is in the business of making and selling toy soldiers, not running tournaments, so they really aren't letting their customers down.

I don't think the game is balanced enough for there to be a real tournament circuit the way Magic The Gathering is set up, or to have national rankings etc. In 3rd edition I could see it, but not anymore. There are too many weak armies for it to be so...heck, the signature "face" army isn't the one that wins the most....

If you can have a "Special Olympics", GW's rulesets don't have TOO too far to go before they're tournament worthy.

Does this mean that the recent threads page will have less "Help me make the perfect killer army for the next tournament" threads? We can only hope. By the way, I like the wrecking crew baiting. It's like Dakka's very own soap opera.

warpcrafter wrote:I like the wrecking crew baiting. It's like Dakka's very own soap opera.

Yea, its always fun to antagonise people when all they're doing is posing an interesting question for discussion. Especially when you're a keyboard rambo that has the internet to hide behind.

I steer clear of the drama myself, and dont appreciate when its pointed out in a thread that I pose for simple discussion. Especially when its pointed out simply to be antagonistic for no other reason than wanting to be a jerk.

One light-hearted jab and everyone's trying to claw at my fething throat, lmao.

I don't hate WC, in fact I've tried to stay as uninvolved as possible thus far (though it's hard to get involved when every thread gets locked by the time I read it), it was just a fething joke. I don't really thrive off your bs, I'm not "blinded by irrational hatred", I really, honestly couldn't care less.

As for quoting someone, I don't believe I quoted anyone in my post, is that what you're complaining about? Not only that but it didn't seem to confuse anyone anyway, you apparently knew who I was talking to because you didn't feel the need to add that part in until after you'd already posted, so what are you talking about?

Anyway, it was a stupid joke, I apologize, moving on...

The main reason being is that GW isn't interested in them and doesn't write their rules with the kind of clarity that can be used in that kind of setting. Hence their "d6 it!" policy with rules disputes and pretty bad unit balancing within each codex.

Indeed, the rules are horribly written, balanced, you name it, and don't lend themselves very well to the tournament environment at all. GW would have to completely revamp the entire system in order for me to even give tournaments a chance, but as it is now though the lack of tournament support doesn't really affect me either way. I wish they would put forth that effort into creating tighter rules (it would benefit all of us, not just tournament players) and making better tournaments, but they won't. It's up to the indies now, and from what I've heard they haven't been doing that much better, either (I really don't like pointlessly restrictive comp scoring, myself).

Maybe GW doesnt care about that dollar, but as a business, they should care about EVERY dollar...especially in these times.

I'm finding that GW doesn't care about a lot of dollars, lately. It's just mind boggling at times how little they seem to care about their own business and customer satisfaction, in fact every single move they've made lately has just pissed me off a little bit more and made me look harder and harder at other, better ways to spend my time and money. If it isn't ridiculous prices, then it's "extremely limited quantities", or lackluster Games Days, or more Space Marine codices...

Also, MGS speaks the truth, as much as I hate to admit it. fething bean counters.

If you can have a "Special Olympics", GW's rulesets don't have TOO too far to go before they're tournament worthy.

lolz, now there's an image.

GW is in the business of making and selling toy soldiers

Which have no use whatsoever to most people who don't play the game. I'd care to wager that GW makes more money on those of us who buy entire armies to play with than they do the hobby collector who buys one or two random models a month to paint up and put on a shelf.

Too often GW tries to get out of writing tighter rules because "they're in the business of making models", but if it weren't for the game and the need to have "official" GW models to play said game, no one would buy this overpriced crap to begin with.

Now if you excuse me, I need to go back under my bridge.

Yea, its always fun to antagonise people when all they're doing is posing an interesting question for discussion. Especially when you're a keyboard rambo that has the internet to hide behind.

I steer clear of the drama myself, and dont appreciate when its pointed out in a thread that I pose for simple discussion. Especially when its pointed out simply to be antagonistic for no other reason than wanting to be a jerk.

Okay! I realize I was a tad late getting this posted up, so I'll keep my mouth shut, but if this is going to continue then consider my apology rescinded.

Obviously I made a very inappropriate joke about a somewhat sensitive topic and I'd appreciate it if EVERYONE stfu about it already.

With all this talk about how GW's rules dont lend themselves well to tournament play...it makes me wonder why Adepticon is so wildly successful and why tournaments are so much fun to attend.

Certainly the ruleset can use some tightening, but tournaments can AND ARE held. Also, surprise surprise, they're FUN.

Hi all.
As 40k and WH have NEVER been written with competative play in mind.
And although the 'corperate hive mind' wanted to exploit the competative nature of some gamers, it has been deemed more trouble than it is worth by those at GW towers.

Deadshane1.
Just remember those compeating in the 'special olympics' have the 'disabilities' not those writing the rules or adjudicating the competition.
(I use the term 'disabilities' in a very loose sense and do not mean to cause offence to anyone.)

The current 40k rules are as far from suitable for competative play as a rule set can get.

However, I can sympathise with those loosing out on the social side of these types of event.

GW PLC is renown for its apathetic approach to all problems.

TTFN
Lanrak.

Lanrak wrote:Hi all.
As 40k and WH have NEVER been written with competative play in mind.
And although the 'corperate hive mind' wanted to exploit the competative nature of some gamers, it has been deemed more trouble than it is worth by those at GW towers.

is this speculation or do you have a GW mission statement in hand? I suspect that it's speculation.

They probably are fun, I've never actually played in one so I don't really know personally (so my opinion on tournaments actually means very little). Mostly I just can't afford the cost of traveling, but the tournament horror stories kinda scare me away from them as well.

I can't say that I'm a big tournament player, though I do attend a few local ones a year. As for the big ones, I'm not going to travel for them, just the way I am. That being said, there are definitely folks out there who can and do travel for the hobby. For those folks, the relative dearth of large tourneys is a negative thing and that's just unfortunate.

The hopeful part though comes out of the posts in this thread regarding the profitability of the various tournaments. If these things are indeed money makers, then there's nothing to worry about. Someone will step up to make a buck. We're definitely in a lull so far as these things go, this being the first year of no Grand Touneys and the like, but if these big tourneys are money makers, then we'll see more of them, whether GW runs them or not.

Hi Deadshane1.
Which part do you think is speculation?
40k has never been writen with competative play in mind.This has come directly from Rick Priestly and Jervis Johnson , on several occasions to several people.(Including me!)

The opportunity to exploit the competative nature of some gamers was taken up after 3rd ed 'streamlining.'The increased model count and (over) simplified rules made it easier to increase sales through efficiency see-saw ing of units performance.
Version 3.5 instigated 4th ed continued this policy.

Completly fed up with the 'highly vocal minority' Jervis and Allesio made it quite clear 5th ed 40k was not suited to the levels of competativenes some players were adopting.
And as this view has been growing in popularity amonst the corperate managment , as it let them take an apathetic option to not run/sponsor tournaments directly.

The last 10 years of 40k could be summed up by GW PLC being run by drooling idiots without any idea of what to do.
Or
GW PLC being run by buisnessmen exploiting a 'vunerable customer base' in every way they can think of to find the optimum amount of return from the minimum amount of effort on thier behalf.

I think the latter explanation is most likely.(Dont you?)

TTFN
Lanrak.

I think the part where you say that the upper eschelon of GW thinking that competetive gamers being more trouble than they're worth is speculation.

I think GW is concerned with nothing more than selling models. This is how its been for MANY years.

I also think that the ability to play a competetive game under the current ruleset is irrelevant tournament wise. Even if the ruleset is unable to support a tournament right now...they are still held, and hundreds of people every day have fun playing "competetive" games with this UN-competetive ruleset.

As far as what Rick Priestly and other EMPLOYEES say publicly....they say what they're ALLOWED to say. Basically, I dont put much stock in what is said in a White Dwarf article or an employee that could get fired for saying the wrong thing.

If Tournament players really were a significant and important part of GW's bottom-line profits, then I'm sure that GW would be bending over backwards to support it.

The very fact that GW is doing just fine in a declining / recessionary market from a bottom line profits standpoint while giving the Tournament crowd the proverbial finger (i.e. no FAQs, no US GTs, minimal Indy support) means that Tournaments really are an insignificant and unimportant part of their customer base.

Clearly, GTs have completed their purpose, and GW has moved beyond that phase in the same way that Wal-Mart no longer trumpets having the absolute lowest prices, IBM no longer pushes Selectric typewriters, and GM no longer makes Pontiac, Oldsmobile, or Saturn cars.

And, as a non-Tournament player, having GW pour more resources into fun things that I and my group can all enjoy (Apocalypse, Planetstrike, Planetary Empires, etc.) is a clear bonus.

Finally the idea that GW is *obliged* to run Tournaments for the few hundred people who happen to attend smacks of a sense of entitlement that is grossly out of whack.

If you need a Tournament-centric gaming company, perhaps you should cash out and play on the Magic Pro Tour?
____

MrGiggles wrote:If these things are indeed money makers, then there's nothing to worry about. Someone will step up to make a buck.

Exactly. The thing is, nearly everybody who runs big Tournaments (e.g. Mikhaila) says that these things are money-losers for quite a while. And having to scale up tot he point that you need a full weekend rental of a convention hall, well, that's some pretty big money if you aren't doing the entire thing with volunteer labor.