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Deadshane1 wrote:I think the part where you say that the upper eschelon of GW thinking that competetive gamers being more trouble than they're worth is speculation.

I think GW is concerned with nothing more than selling models. This is how its been for MANY years.

That is also speculation on your part.

As far as what Rick Priestly and other EMPLOYEES say publicly....they say what they're ALLOWED to say. Basically, I dont put much stock in what is said in a White Dwarf article or an employee that could get fired for saying the wrong thing.

What I find funny is your refusal to accept that GW doesn't value tournies and that they can make a decision not to. The simple fact is, if it made more money than costs (inc PIA factor) they would do it - it would be as you say their only interest is in selling models. They don't change the rules, do FAQs when needed or listen to tournie players criticism and ignore what you need - heck we all now that a little bit of work wouldmake the rules better but GW stays silent. Why do you think that is? Well, I would say the only answer is they have judged tournie players aren't worth the investment.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
The very fact that GW is doing just fine in a declining / recessionary market from a bottom line profits standpoint while giving the Tournament crowd the proverbial finger (i.e. no FAQs, no US GTs, minimal Indy support) means that Tournaments really are an insignificant and unimportant part of their customer base.

ARE they "doing just fine"? Or are they still just keeping their head above water as they have been for the past several years? "Doing just fine" seems like a ridiculously optimistic appraisal of their current standing.

At any rate, I dont think any impact has been seen yet in their bottom line concerning GT's/no GT's, it would take some time to see if sales droop at all do to this decision. If anything, its a decision they made and are trying. I suspect if the bottom drops out and GW is in serious trouble...I'm betting that GT's would be something they would come back to in an attempt to get every single dollar possible to maintain and keep from being 'taken over'.

Hold on, I thought the Tournament sales argument was that people were buying brand NEW armies for upcoming Tournaments, and hence there would be immediate sales spikes upon announcement of a GT.

If the argument is that it's a slower thing, then there were no sales spikes in the first place, and Tournaments are even less of a benefit to GW.

Yes John, GW keeps a day to day track of every model sold....everywhere, and why it was sold, for tournament or no.


Of course I could be mistaken and they simply look at profits at the end of each year. Its possible that tournament gamers could drive that number up just a teensie bit.

/facepalm

JohnHwangDD wrote:

And, as a non-Tournament player, having GW pour more resources into fun things that I and my group can all enjoy (Apocalypse, Planetstrike, Planetary Empires, etc.) is a clear bonus.

Finally the idea that GW is *obliged* to run Tournaments for the few hundred people who happen to attend smacks of a sense of entitlement that is grossly out of whack.

The idea you will 'reap the benefits' from the greatsatan ceasing it's interests in tournaments is highly unlikely. It will simply lay off the staff that ran that area or absorb them back into it's gelatinous folds and spit them back out as mail order trolls or, as i suspect, events designed to hook children to it's very expensive (and not quite as good as) cocaine.

No, GW is not obliged to run tournaments, but considering it has run tournaments for a considerable time as a method of spreading it's influence, it would have been the decent thing to do to at least make a solid statement to the effect that it's going to run less and less until they disappear. But as I've said, Jervis has been alluding to that via his sneering commentary in the direction of competitive play.

I've already reaped the benefits by having Apoc and Reload and PS and PE being created and released at all, along with a new, cleaner version of the base rules.

If the Tournament = important myth really were true, then all of those would have gone into Tournament support such as FAQs and GT planning so on.

As a casual player, I like and agree with Jervis' commentary. The fact that you dislike the message is no reason to slur the messenger.

As a casual gamer myself, having never participated in the tourneys once, I happen to sympathise with those who I share a common hobby who have been left without support from a company they have paid for products from that has subsequently changed it's direction and appears to have left them without previously arranged tournaments and more importantly without an explanation.

You have not 'reaped the benefits' of the tournaments going ahead by obtaining those products, are you seriously telling me that if the tourneys had gone ahead, GW would have sacrificed producing new things to sell? That's somewhat difficult to fathom. Tournaments are important to the hundreds of people who travel hundreds of miles to support and participate in them.

And JJ's standard bearer articles are frequently sneering and patronising. As an adult reading that, I'm surprised you didn't have enough self worth to feel someone angry that a guy, who's reliant on you and me and the rest of the readers buying the stuff to keep him in oil of ulay, just can't help coming across as a colossal gloater.

I don't see any sneering or patronizing in Jervis' writing. As I read it, he's laying the facts on the table as best he sees it. Whether some people are unhappy, them's the breaks.

It amuses that people want more transparency from GW about their direction, and when Jervis actually bothers to take some time to write something, they get excoriated for it.

As for new things to sell, when GW was busying themselves writing FAQs and compiling them into Chapter Approved / Warhammer Chronicles for Tournament-type play, I don't recall any Apoc type expansions coming out.

JohnHwangDD wrote:The fact that you dislike the message is no reason to slur the messenger.

When the message is that people who play differently are bad people, then yes it is. Especially when the 'messanger' is actually the person creating the message.

GW have never busied themselves with the FAQs john, ever, they have given them a modicum more (ie some) attention in the past but we are talking bare minimum. I strongly suspect all the new and shiney PS and PE comes about from the fact they no longer supplement or support their 'specialist' games.

Removal of tournaments does not equal lots more stuff for the casual gamer. Tournaments did not divert much attention from the design studio or the people measuring production vs profit.

As to Jervis, I find his writing overweening and twee, i stopped reading his articles some time ago, but a further discussion on JJ would be a further diversion from the nature of this thread and so i'll leave that one alone.

Back in 3rd, GW published new FAQs and Q&A practically every month.

Removal of Tournaments did something, and as I see it, the money-losing SG resources moved over to the money-making LotR / WorR as a new main game. So I think those 40k resources went in to casual-friendly expansions.

skyth wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:The fact that you dislike the message is no reason to slur the messenger.

When the message is that people who play differently are bad people, then yes it is. Especially when the 'messanger' is actually the person creating the message.

"Of course there is no right way to play our games, which means that my job as a games developer is to ensure that our games work as well as they possibly can, both for basement players like Ryan through to the most dedicated tournament players....

.....if you're a member of a basement gamers group you might want to try and venture forth and take part in a tournament -- they're a great way of meeting new players and seeing some of the best the hobby has to offer." -------------Jervis Johnson

Wow - lots of armchair quarterbacks that really think they got GW figured out in this thread. But - notice no GW employee's have posted here - thus all is just nothing but personal opinions and idle speculation. Deadshane's initial question though is a good one for discussion.

So - my personal thoughts.

To think that GW cares nothing about tournaments is foolish. They STARTED the grand tournaments back in the 90's. The were events where only a limited number of people were accepted - first come first served. They were a big deal. It's a part of the hobby that really appeals to a pretty broad group of players and is a big publicity event for the hobby. GW sends their "hobby celebrities" to the events for reasons. The amount of discussions, posts, coverage etc that events like GT's, Adepticon, The Waagh, Necro etc generate proves that. Not everyone is into that - but to underestimate the numbers of people that the tournaments

I think that the tournaments have suffered some from an over saturation and challenges for GW to set a true direction for how they want to run them. I imagine that there were significant costs associated with them - and concern that their was a cost benefit analysis. I think that they really are searching for the best way to run them that is profitable and good for their company - yet still appeals to the hobby community.

I think this year and maybe next, may be an experimental year for GW. Economy is down - expenses are tight - let's cut the tournaments and see if the community will rise and run them themselves. If they could get a self supporting circuit in place - that they provide assistance to - then host a "championship" tourney once a year, might that not be a good thing for GW?

Will be interesting to see what they do with it. I personally don't believe for a second that GW will do away with them or not work to support it in the future. It's too good for their hobby not to.

I just want the Vegas GT back. I'm a casual gamer, but I have been to a couple of local tourneys and both the Vegas GTs. I had a blast at both of them. Met a bunch of really cool people, played a bunch of great games (got my butt handed to me in most, but still a lot of fun). Las Vegas as a location is great for me as Chicago and Baltimore are too far away. And come on... it's Vegas, baby!

The really strange thing is that the euro stuff is still around and run by GW themselves. So some of them must think tournaments are worth it, rather seems like US is the thing thats beeing cut off for some reason.

Deadshane, so are you saying that without the GTs you do not play?

Aren't there RTT all over the country? Is there a minimum number of players before you are willing to attend?

I don't get it. If visiting and playing old opponents/friends is your big fix, Call them up and get together with them at your own tournament.

I see plenty of comments that GW isn't doing it for you. So do it for yourself.

I remember when the GTs started, they were a big deal because they were it. there was no Adepticon.

Adepticon came about because some devoted people wanted to do a tournament their own way. So they did it.

Deadshane1 wrote:With all this talk about how GW's rules dont lend themselves well to tournament play...it makes me wonder why Adepticon is so wildly successful and why tournaments are so much fun to attend.

Certainly the ruleset can use some tightening, but tournaments can AND ARE held. Also, surprise surprise, they're FUN.

Adepticon has a good FAQ list and it attracts the right kind of people.

There's no such thing as a perfect set of rules. Every rule-book needs a bit of explanation or correction.

40K is much worse than most, mainly because of the problems with the codexes. The core 5e rules are reasonably well written now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
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MOD:

There have been a couple of alerts about this thread. I see there has been some inappropriate demolition controversy in a couple of posts.

An apology was given so I'm taking no further action.

Just remember...

Few things:

1st, any "for fun" gamers that are happy about tournements going to the wayside...shouldnt be. Anything that lessens the hobby...FOR ANYONE...lessens the hobby, period. Stompa is correct when he states that Apoc, planetstrike and anything else comes out regardless of there being tournaments or not. These things will happen whether or not there are tournaments every year.

No Tournaments is a bad thing however you look at it. No Tournaments is a disappointment for a portion of individuals that participate in our hobby. It's better to have EVERYONE happy and spending money with gusto. Rather than have Tournament gamers have no events to look forward to and therefore less reason to come up with a new army for the coming tournament season.

No Tournaments lessens our hobby, its bad for everyone. It lessens the exitement, online buzz, and yes...income for GW in some capacity.

2nd, Cost of Tournaments

Let me illustrate this for everyone. In days past, GT's were run by a skeleton crew of around 5 GW employees to act as judges/officials. A large portion of the "labor", setting up, rules questions, and whatever else would come up, were handled by volunteers (outriders) that were indeed NOT paid for the weekend...but given product in payment for their services. This amounts to almost FREE labor for GW to run the Tournament. While our models are indeed expensive...honestly, they cost very little to make/package.

So, thus far you have actually only say 5 employees to pay for a weekend of wages. Now the hall/hotel must be leased out for the weekend. I do not claim to know the cost of such but it doesnt amount to the fee's that people pay for the actual GT ticket....

Let's assume 100 dollars per entry, then what....300 players? In the past in fact, they charged even more but featured Hotel rooms for the weekend, I dunno what kind of scam they ran with the hotels but I doubt very much that both the Hotel AND GW didnt benefit somehow from THAT deal.

Also factor in some sales personel peddling GW product....more income for GW.

My point here is that the tournaments are NOT run at a loss. While the income from a tournament may be negligible at the end of the year, it would still result in a positive number for the company...not only in income, but the buzz it produces due to the exitement beforehand.

Again, it was widely known in the past that GW made enough from the Baltimore tournament to run the remainder of the tournaments in that given year....any of the other tournaments were in the black. These things are NOT that expensive to run, and require a skeleton crew of officials with volunteers picking up the slack after being "paid" next to nothing. (product)

Lastly @skrulnik

Indeed, I can see without National tournament....I probably WOULD eventually quit playing....altogether. I'm pushing 40 with a real career and honestly dont have the time to put into this hobby. However, I MAKE time because I have old friends of 20 years or so who all travel to these national events. To get together again and pretend we're once again college kids playing games all weekend and partying. THAT is what GW gaming means to me. I put together an army so that I can socialise with friends that I havent seen all year, its an excuse to get together with these guys (and away from the wife!) who I've bonded with so strongly over the past several years. Without that incentive, its much easier to simply turn on my XBOX and play some Fallout, watch movies on my Blue-Ray, or get older. (yes, the hobby keeps you young)

Without National Tournaments in some capacity...these old friends that in some cases are across the country 1000's of miles away will wind up falling to the wayside due to the other demands of life. As crappy as that sounds...its true. I know I'm not alone in this...and while its not GW's responsibility to "maintain my social life" I can be upset that they're knocking off GT's. Eventually, GW will lose my money. One player less playing GW games lessens the hobby, perhaps just a very miniscule amount, but lessens it nontheless. I can guarantee that I wont be the only one spending less money on GW product if Tournaments are given up on.

So, what about BoLScon then?

There is quite a bit of rampant speculation going on here (which is generally what people like to do when actual facts are scarce), but let's take a second to do a quick fact check:

1) Games Workshop has different divisions that are responsible for running events in different countries.
2) GW doesn't appear to be running any US GTs this year. There is no indication one way or another whether or not they will be running US GTs next year or beyond.
3) GW US went through a major restructuring this year (combining GW Canada into one North American GW division that I'm still calling 'GW US' in this post for the sake of simplicity).
4) GW US still employs at least a few people in the Community Events department ('GoGo' and one other fellow, I believe).
5) GW is continuing to run GTs in the UK this year as well as (I believe) some other European Countries.


So given that GW is continuing to run GTs in other countries, does it not stand to reason that assuming that 'GW' as some monolithic entity has 'decided' one way or another to support or not support tournaments as a whole is a little bit premature?

Could it not just be that the divisional shake-up in North America means they've needed to take some time off to restructure and rethink how (or if) they wish to continue to run US GTs?

Perhaps it may end up being that GW US ultimately decides that GTs in the US are not something they feel is worthwhile. But as long as GW continues to run GTs in other countries it should be easy to recognize that this isn't some global mandate from GW, but rather a local issue having to do with issues stemming within the US events department.

We just don't have enough information to know for sure. So yes, you can continue speculating one way or another about what is happening, but in reality unless you can phone the US events department and get some concrete info you're just going to have to sit and play the waiting game to see if and when US GTs return.

Hi again.
I hope you didnt get the impression I was 'happy' that GW PLC have withdrawn even more support for gamers.

I am not suprised by GW PLC taking the path of least resistance.It seems to be a re-occuring policy.

Relese new codexes for armies whole editions out of date , OR re vamp the SM , (and make up new chapter specific codexes,)and make a ton of cash with little investment ?

Respond to the game play - game ballance issues bought up on the GW web site, OR just close it down.

After letting lots of gamers think that 40k is suitable for competative play and taking thier cash, work out a tournament FAQs to adress gameplay ballance issues, OR just stop supporting tournaments directly.

I am sure Jervis has to tow the company line , or loose his job when making statments in public.
Jervis has supported narrative play strongly, and promoted the social nature of tournaments as a good thing openly.
He has NEVER officialy said that 40k was developed for competative play, and has made it quite clear some people were taking the game of 40k to levels of competativeness that it simply was not intended for.

I am not defending GW PLC or GW staff.

It may be down to cultural differenceis. In Britain instructions tell you what to do, everything else is assumed to be 'not recommended'.


Being a gamer first and foremost,I personaly prefer games companies that support game play and gamers far more than GW PLC does.

GW screwing over gamers yet again, not a suprise , and still not welcomed by anyone .

TTFN
Lanrak.

I think you hit the nail on the head YAK

They seem to have a number of options ahead of them...

1. do a qualifier style with the indys as the start with one GT at the end.

2. do a hall of heroes (canada) stlye combining indys and rtt's with a GT at the end

3. have 2 or 3 GT's by them selves

4. do the circuit again with 2 or 3 gt's

5. or do nothing at all with GT's

6. put all resources into games day stuff

what do I think would be best?

Definatly resurect the circuit, takes very little effort to support it and it ties all the indys into one big event. Do stories on the winners, painters, clubs, mad converters, and anything else. post a few pics up and stories...free promo of your product.

then whatever way they want to do it, 2 or 3 GT's or the one big one at the end....whatever way just keep """Vegas"""please.............................

Sidstyler wrote:

Maybe GW doesnt care about that dollar, but as a business, they should care about EVERY dollar...especially in these times.

I'm finding that GW doesn't care about a lot of dollars, lately. It's just mind boggling at times how little they seem to care about their own business and customer satisfaction, in fact every single move they've made lately has just pissed me off a little bit more and made me look harder and harder at other, better ways to spend my time and money. If it isn't ridiculous prices, then it's "extremely limited quantities", or lackluster Games Days, or more Space Marine codices...

this is exactly why i got into historicals. namely WAB. now its not what i usually play, i play alot of fantasy/40k but i like the easy to grasp and balanced rules.

GW doesn't host tournaments in Australia, players do. Surely America is the same?

Fundamentally, if large Tournaments really are easy and don't lose money, then the complete lack of competition from GW should mean that independent Tournaments should be flourishing in the US. There should be more than just Adepticon and BOLScon.

GW does nothing to stop independent Tournaments, and they've always encouraged such things, because they know that these things really don't cost them anything except some marginal prize support.

But the idea that the only cost to GW is 5 redshirts for 3 days is complete and utter nonsense. Anybody from GW on site is pulling full salary for the entire time that they are on site. Anybody not local has travel and lodging costs. Everybody has parking costs, although parking might be "discounted". Nearly all GT events are in convention centers which cost a pretty penny to rent for a weekend. Somebody from marketing has to do event creation, promotion, website, materials, etc.. Somebody from accounting has to process registrations, and pay the vendors. Somebody has to create all of the terrain, and then ship it to and from the site. All of these are costs that would need to be recovered if not done for "free" by volunteers. And of course, there's corporate overhead to consider...

The only things that one can pretend to stand on their own are the GW & FW sales onsite. But the idea that these are money-makers for GW is pretty hard to believe.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
But the idea that the only cost to GW is 5 redshirts for 3 days is complete and utter nonsense.

Good thing noone said that then. Of course I didnt post an all inclusive expense receipt for GW concerning a GT...since such a post would be tiresome and tedious.

the idea that these are money-makers for GW is pretty hard to believe.

Definatly hard to beleive, of course GW would throw money away for these things since at least '95....thats 13 years...many of those years having expanded to feature MULTIPLE tournaments. Yes, all those tournaments were run at a loss...every time.

Yes indeed, VERY hard to beleive they ever made money at them.

I think Yak hit it on the head with linking the US GT's to GW's re-organization of their North American operations. I think GT's will return in some form, I'd like to see that happen even though I've never been to one. I liked seeing the coverage of them and especially seeing shots of the armies, some of which were very creative.
Even though I've never gone to a GT and haven't played in an RTT in years I see them as a valuable part of the overall health of the hobby.

I think a situation could arise, especially as the economy recovers that you see more independent tournaments created. As I already stated I think GT's will return in some form. So there's a possibility for a strong tournament scene in the near future.

Like alot of other topics I think analyzing the overall costs of the GT's is more complex than it seems on the surface. We can sit back and speculate about GW's motives, but that's about all we are going to accomplish. I personally think that they see GT's as another form of advertising, if so it would follow that like most projects they'd want to see a certain level of return on that investment, however large or small their expected return may be. If it was my business I'd be looking hard at monthly sales totals in the 2-3 month period prior to and after a GT, specifically focusing on sales within the region hosting it.

I think with the economy in the state it has been for awhile GW may simply have anticipated that fewer players would have been able/willing to travel to the GT's and alongside their north american opertions being re-organized saw the easier path as cancelling them for a year. While disappointing it may allow them to bring them back in some better format.

I think there is something fairly critical being overlooked in this.

There appears to be an assumption that Tournament players are less supported than Casual players, yes?

I call shenanigans on that one. GW have released 5th Ed as a sort of modular rules set. Main book tells you how to play 40k, and expansions offer specialised battlefields complete with additional rules and tricks. This benefits everyone, as even a Tournament Player plays casually.

So rather than being underserved, you are served exactly the same as everyone else, but seem to want something a little extra to prove you are the best. GW already have your money, and the money of thousands and thousands of gamers who don't play in Tournaments. Why should they invest additional money to please a minority, when the majority appears pretty happy with things as they are?

Apocalupse and Planetstrike, as with every new book released, drive sales far far more than the Tournament scene ever could, so please don't claim some kind of saviour like spending ability, as it is simply untrue.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I think there is something fairly critical being overlooked in this.

There appears to be an assumption that Tournament players are less supported than Casual players, yes?

I call shenanigans on that one. GW have released 5th Ed as a sort of modular rules set. Main book tells you how to play 40k, and expansions offer specialised battlefields complete with additional rules and tricks. This benefits everyone, as even a Tournament Player plays casually.

So rather than being underserved, you are served exactly the same as everyone else, but seem to want something a little extra to prove you are the best. GW already have your money, and the money of thousands and thousands of gamers who don't play in Tournaments. Why should they invest additional money to please a minority, when the majority appears pretty happy with things as they are?

Apocalupse and Planetstrike, as with every new book released, drive sales far far more than the Tournament scene ever could, so please don't claim some kind of saviour like spending ability, as it is simply untrue.

All I'm saying is that I'm upset with the lack of GW sponsored tournements that I've enjoyed over the last 12-13 years. Upset with "all of a sudden" not having them to go to.

Same way as you'd be completely justified in going to McDonalds to order your 'Big Mac on Wednesday' only to see that McD's has done away with Big Mac's entirely....with no reason other than. "We're not making them anymore and we really dont have to give you a reason. Choose something else from the menu, we dont care how much you like 'Big Macs' since everyone else orders 1/4 pounders."

Deadshane1 wrote:
All I'm saying is that I'm upset with the lack of GW sponsored tournements that I've enjoyed over the last 12-13 years. Upset with "all of a sudden" not having them to go to.

Same way as you'd be completely justified in going to McDonalds to order your 'Big Mac on Wednesday' only to see that McD's has done away with Big Mac's entirely....with no reason other than. "We're not making them anymore and we really dont have to give you a reason. Choose something else from the menu, we dont care how much you like 'Big Macs' since everyone else orders 1/4 pounders."

Your comparison may be more insightful than you realize....perhaps they are modeling their tournament support on other sales strategies...