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 Alpharius wrote:
Ah - sorry.

But still, paying for too much stuff?

Huh? (Insert "Not Sure if Serious." picture here)

I can see where he's coming from. Look at the Relic Knights thread and how many posts are "There's not enough stuff!". But how much extra stuff should be thrown on before you're getting more than you'll ever need or want? Personally, I resisted the Reaper KS for that exact reason. Yes, you got a ton of models, but there were only about 4-5 I actually wanted, so saw no need to spend the money to get 100+ I didn't and will never need. Could I sell them off later? Probably, but that's a hassle and I'd rather just buy the few I want when they're released at retail later than break my wallet just because "Hey, look how many you get, what a deal!"

I definitely see the point when it comes to the Reaper Kickstarter, but not the Sedition Wars or Relic Knights Kickstarters - those two were more 'cohesive' and 'compact'.

Plus, on RK, if you only wanted one or two factions, you still got the additional minis for the base sets, plus the add ons 'got better' over time...

Of course, both of those have essentially 'raised the bar' for KS expectations, for better or worse.

The Zzor MVP is AWESOME* I wish the rest of the Zzor looked as cool. He really exemplifies the weird-arse alien rather than 'man in a suit'.



*Yes, so awesome that I was legally required to use CAPS.

 Souleater wrote:
The Zzor MVP is AWESOME* I wish the rest of the Zzor looked as cool. He really exemplifies the weird-arse alien rather than 'man in a suit'.



*Yes, so awesome that I was legally required to use CAPS.

I think you may have got the wrong thread there dude...

Basically, I've been buying as bit too much of this stuff.

 Alpharius wrote:
Ah - sorry.

But still, paying for too much stuff?

Huh? (Insert "Not Sure if Serious." picture here)

In a way, it's a bit like the Costco Phenomenon (for those that are unfamiliar, Costco is a warehouse store that sells discounted premium products in bulk): when presented with such tremendous deals, people have a tendency to stop thinking in terms of what they really need, and instead simply buy-buy-buy. This is exacerbated by the fact that at Costco, you need to buy in (with a membership) to access the bargains.

In a way, this is can analogous to the "sweet spot" pledge level most Kickstarters have in order to get access to the "big bargains", the kickstarter exclusives.

People always want to feel that they are getting a deal, and sometimes that overcomes the first question they need to ask themselves "is this something I actually have use for?"

I know personally I got caught up in the hype on SW initially; when the not-Riddick was put up, I was thrilled (don't laugh, I like those movies...), and I was pledging a bunch of money... then I actually looked at what was coming. I wasn't at all likely to play the game (for a variety of reasons), so I would be buying it for the cheap, abundant models. But putting aside how cheap they were, did I actually like them? Like throwing a bag of frozen fish fillets in your shopping cart because it's such a great bargain, only to later remember you don't like fish even when it's cheap, I looked at the models and said to myself "WTH would I do with that?"

When the answer came back "probably nothing", I realized it was time to drag that fish back to the counter. Interestingly this is again like a Costco, where returns are easy, because they know that the lure of bargains is made even stronger when people don't feel they are getting stuck with bad purchases. Of course, the more comfortable people are with purchases, the less they are to examine them critically. A profitable paradox!

This isn't a criticism of Kickstarter... or Costco, actually (I enjoy both). It's just something I've noticed as Kickstarter has blown up over this summer, generally by offering "more, more, more!", and people have become conditioned to ask "why should I get this now, rather then wait for it to come retail? Is it a good deal?"

I too like Costco and the Riddick movies.

I also don't think it is unreasonable for people to expect something 'extra' in return for pre-ordering something WAY in advance and giving companies large interest free loans that are, in fact, no way guaranteed!

 Alpharius wrote:
I too like Costco and the Riddick movies.

I also don't think it is unreasonable for people to expect something 'extra' in return for pre-ordering something WAY in advance and giving companies large interest free loans that are, in fact, no way guaranteed!

I'm not saying it's unreasonable, I'm just trying to illustrate how it can be that people find themselves buying "too many bargains".

But it's just like Costco: sometimes one comes back and is unloading the car and saying "how did I end up spending so much money?"

Everything is a good bargain (and you're completely correct that there should be a premium to entice pledging), I'm just pointing out an observed phenomenon (in the context a previous question), and suggesting an extension.

Yes, that is a good point and spot on!

I've had to force myself to NOT back some recent Kickstarters for just that reason - the dreaded "Do I REALLY need this?" self-dialogue...

I had that with Reaper and Relic Knights recently. Mostly because I'd already made the mistake with Sedition Wars. Well, at least I'll have some cool looking guardsmen

I should have had that discussion with myself.

Oh well, I will have fun trying to convince my gaming group to play Blackwater Gulch, Kings of War (although one is willing), SW (shouldn't be too hard), and dreadball.

While I wait for them to convert I can paint my dreamforge and reaper minis.

I think I have a problem.

i was in the same boat was so close to pledgeing the dreamforge kickstarter but managed to stop myself :]
i think ts the "but what if i dont pledge and i missout on stuff) brainwaves that get you as mine are expecting all kickstarters to be like zombicide and sedition wars with almost double the stuff you start with .

as for getting players for sedition wars my plan is to paint all the figs up and go to my nearest flgs and play the solo game to tease everyone lol

My wife recently put the foot down and said no more Kickstarters. I've had to let a couple slip through my fingers now, and at first it was hard as I'm fairly confident I'll pick stuff up at retail so would be saving in the long run.

However in the last few days it's become easier to resist and I'm not as concerned missing those 'bargains'. While I am extremely happy I got in on this KS while it was there I can see that I probably wouldn't have cared so much if I had found out I missed it - like the Zombicide one for example.

If it looks great I'll grab a copy at retail eventually once a few expansions get bundled in and still get close to the same value. I just will have to wait some 5-10 years lol

Yeah, the Kickstarters can get addictive. I ended up doing Zombicide, Sedition Wars, and the Reaper one. I probably would have gotten SW for retail if I hadn't done the KS, so this one I actually was saving. Zombicide I found at the end and decided that it was a great deal, and I had been looking for a zombie game for a while. I am very glad that I did pledge, because I would likely never have gotten this very fun game without it. With the Reaper Kickstarter, I initially said I wasn't going to do it, but as the deal got better and better, I eventually couldn't resist (I think the $25 extra from Sophe and the announcement of Cthulhu was when I finally gave in) and convinced myself I could make back some of the money selling off the ones I didn't want.

Luckily, CMoN didn't get any more of my money with RKs (because I hate anime) and I narrowly resisted getting some of those DF German infantry.

I keep trying to swear off them, but there almost always seems to be one that ticks a "must get" box of mine coming up. The three that I'm watching closely now are the Bombshell one - figures I probably would have bought via Reaper, etc, Dreadball since I love me some Blood Bowl and Speedball, and Dredd. Because. Well, Judge Dredd.

I went in on the Dreamforge one as well since I manged to get a couple of the last resin sculpts, but always liked the large ones (and never thought I'd manage to get one).

At this point though, until the masses of stuff I've paid for starts to roll in at the very least, I'm swearing off them for awhile. Which is what I said just before the Reaper one launched.

I got into a fight with KS over some of these so called "Deals".

I will not go into details, but I will put it out there that the old saying is true-
If it looks too good to be true, it usually is. CMON, I'm looking at you for that.

First issue was that Zombicide project. Second was Sedition Wars, and third was Relic Knights. Needless to say, I will not be doing business with CMON anymore.

They have a credibility issue with me at the moment.

KS does not agknowledge the problems with the funding. Basicly to them the issue is black and white, "We are not responsible for the claims made by the projects creator".

There are several of these "Deals" that are in fact... not kosher.

I decided to pull back in the funding department, until I actually start seeing projects push forward.

Indigogo is in an even worse predicament, because they take the funding up front. You may or may not hear from the project, and if you do, you have to wonder what took so long for the conversation.

In these "Projects" some of these assclowns don't even want to update the scorecard after they make bank. They get the funding, you don't hear from them again.

It makes it hard for the next guy around, to be sure.

In crowd funding, the best advice is the best- Fund those you know. Keep in contact, and don't pay money with your heart because Business is Business.

I'm not sure how much guarded comments and implications help anything. On the other hand, I'm not sure how open the mods are to specific accusations or grievances being aired.

Speaking for myself at least, I'd prefer to see specifics being mentioned so they can either be confirmed or shot down as inaccurate.

If it's about CMON's communication being poor, I guess we already know that. If it's about Zombiecide's uneven early shipping, I guess we also know about that as well. If it's about the "pledge at your own risk" aspect and Kickstarter not being responsible for the projects, we all know that as well. - or people certainly should be aware of it well upfront. Particularly any Dakkaite, since it's brought up in these threads often enough.

Your post hints at something darker or more malicious though, so if it's ok with the mods, as someone who's poured quite a bit of cash into these things, I'd like to hear specifically what's too good to be true or not kosher so I can know whether to have a real concern or not.

The message is the same as it has always been.

Caveat Emptor.

If you don't like the message, sorry, but its just going to be something you don't like.

I don't need to pee on peoples shoes that want to get in on this "Crowd Funding", but I am going to throw it out there because on several of these projects, I was not a happy camper after the fact and felt that I was cheated.

My Post is an outright warning. If you want to get down to brass tacks-

-Some of the so called Projects, hint that they only need a lower amount of cash flow to make something happen, then use the pledge to sell stuff through the KS site. Like it or not, that is the fact.
Then when they sell a bunch of stuff, the end state looks like they actually made it on the project, nothing to do with the additional sales.

-"Streach goals" are either overpriced, and gives someone the impression that they are getting something "Special" or they are being used as an excuse to set a price on a product and you get the "Option" to buy it.

I don't need to be the bearer of the obvious, but I say that I am holding what I have for these projectes based on past performance. Don't let my bad experience be the stopping point for you, but you need to go in on these not by looking at "What am I getting for my money/ Time".

My comments arn't guarded. I got peed on a couple of times, and didn't like it. ( and to me, thats being nice about it.)

CMON has an issue with thier communication. they have an issue on using thier projects to sell stuff in a way that doesn't make sense. they have an issue in thier CMON site that they either intentionally or unintentionally misquoted pricing.

The fact that KS is a new thing isn't really new though. Micro financing has been there for years. KS/ Indigogo is the new thing, because they are putting it out there in one spot.cing has been around for over t And I for one do not have an issue in giving a couple of shmoes who are doing something a few bones if they need it. MY issue is that there are some people using the KS site to sell products, in the guise of funding projects.

I applaud people for doing it as well. if it gives us more choices in gaming, I'm always good with throwing money around.

BUT

If I have an issue, I don't mind saying something about it. I'm putting money out there to grow a hobby, not just throw it around for no reason.

that specific enough for you?

I'm not the only one to say this, either.

http://www.itproportal.com/2012/09/06/kickstarter-says-failed-projects-are-not-its-problem/

http://stuffershack.com/my-problem-with-kickstarter/

http://mightygodking.com/index.php/2012/05/01/the-problem-with-kickstarter/

http://www.qj.net/pov/pc-gaming/pov-the-problem-with-kickstarter.html

http://www.gottabemobile.com/2012/07/17/only-25-of-kickstarter-projects-ship-on-time/

http://www.theverge.com/gaming/2012/6/27/3099051/backers-rights-what-kickstarter-funders-can-expect-when-they-pledge

.....


Caveat Emptor.

Not speaking for Dakka as a whole, but I think actually stating what the problem is rather than just hinting that there are shady goings on would be less dubious, frankly.

So long as you can provide something to back up any allegations of shady dealings, of course.


Edit: So far, Grot, you seem to be saying that these Kickstarters are dubious because they raise more money than they need, and that sales from add-ons are counted towards the project total rather than declared as separate sales.

Which doesn't seem particularly shady to me. The income would still need to be dleclared the same, so it's not as if there would be some clever tax dodge going on. And people are either going to be prepared to pay the asking price or not... whether or not the amount raised is more than needed is more or less irrelevant to that.

Not really seeing your problem so far.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit Edit - I'm even more confused after checking out your links, because none of them seem to be making anything even remotely close to your point, they're all talking about different things, and one of them (despite the title) was actually saying that Kickstarter is singlehandedly reviving the RPG industry, rather than being about Kickstarter being dodgy.

Hm. No offence, but reading through your post you don't seem to be saying anything much at all. Certainly not anything new. Project goals that aren't really "targets"? KS being all about stretch goals? Stretch goals giving you the chance to spend more money? Kickstarters as a pre-order mechanism? CMON are all about getting money upfront and crappy at communication afterwards when they've got your dosh?

It's not a matter of "not liking the message" so much as seeing you point out what we all know already and have spent endless pages and posts discussing across a dozen or more threads and asking "...and?"

Might be personal then. I can see the confusion.

The point that I make is that KS isn't just "Oh, get more free stuff..."



On my end, I see it as an issue when I pledge for a project, then get told after the fact that I owe more on something, when the "Pledge manager" is the one thats wrong.

One time, yeah, sure,,,, maybe. TWO? not.

And as an add on- It is an issue, because the same designated "Option to buy" streach goal is already out there for sale? Thats not much of a goal then. it slants tword iffy/ shady dealing.

Might not be the truth to the Project , but it is a perception. and Perception is reality.

I don't say that they are dubious for making money. I'm saying in the way in which they slant to make the funding.


To me, if it is a goal, then someone is putting it out there that , We made bank, so this is extra, ( sort of a "Thanks for the help" kind of thing.) NOT just- hey we made this goal, so we are moving the goal post so you can have the option to buy this other so and so.

I mean, yes, someone has a project, thats thier project- but at what point do you think that just giving someone a chance to buy something through an alternate website, even though without postals isn't ... wierd?

Edit because your not seeing my point, it is getting lost in the mix somewhere.


"And"...


Some cats out here are not happy with the trend that is emerging with the so called, We only need 1,000 bucks. BUT we give you prices on a bunch of extra stuff that is obviously going to throw up another 20,000.00.

It kinda cheats the system, if you want to get down to it.

 Grot 6 wrote:
On my end, I see it as an issue when I pledge for a project, then get told after the fact that I owe more on something, when the "Pledge manager" is the one thats wrong.

How often has that happened? I can think of one example: the command suits for Sedition, and in that case the actual price was simply the price we were originally told whilst the KS was running, making the whole issue - to use your favourite word - moot!

Are there other examples?

 Grot 6 wrote:
And as an add on- It is an issue, because the same designated "Option to buy" streach goal is already out there for sale? Thats not much of a goal then. it slants tword iffy/ shady dealing.

How? What's 'iffy' or 'shady' about offering items in a KS that you pay extra for?

 Grot 6 wrote:
Might not be the truth to the Project , but it is a perception. and Perception is reality.

I don't see the perception you're talking about. I'm not sure where most of this is coming from.

 Grot 6 wrote:
To me, if it is a goal, then someone is putting it out there that , We made bank, so this is extra, ( sort of a "Thanks for the help" kind of thing.) NOT just- hey we made this goal, so we are moving the goal post so you can have the option to buy this other so and so.

That's not moving the goalpost. You don't have to buy any of the optional extras. It's like someone asking you "Would you like fries with that?" and you saying "No!". You're still getting what you paid for, and you're not being asked to pay more for the thing you've already paid for.

 Grot 6 wrote:
Some cats out here are not happy with the trend that is emerging with the so called, We only need 1,000 bucks. BUT we give you prices on a bunch of extra stuff that is obviously going to throw up another 20,000.00.

It kinda cheats the system, if you want to get down to it.

How? I'm failing to see the issue here at all.

We need X to make Y! You can pledge for X, but we're also offering A, B and C - the proceeds of which will go towards making X! That's win/win for everyone. The project gets funded, people get what they want, and people who wanted the extras get the extras. There's no shady goal-post moving going on.

I think Grot 6 is being a bit dramatic personally, at the end of the day, I've never seen an outright fraud or anything.. where a company takes your money and just vanishes or never mentions anything again.

Although.. I did buy a limited edition standard bearer off the bloke who does AOW when he did an Indiegogo.. and have heard feth all about it for months.

But it doesn't really matter, because he has an awful reputation anyway, so I think we all kinda expected it, several people mentioned it the day after he posted the SB.. like "Oh Felix will probably not deliver this for 2 years, at least its only $15"

Which I suppose is the point! Its a hobby. If you are spending money you cant afford to flagrantly waste, then you are stupid anyway.

So.. really.. what's the problem? Kickstarter away I say. Its not like I spend hobby money when i've got bills to pay or kids to feed. The way I see it, buying more hobby stuff via KS and Indiegogo is better than doing what I usually do with all my spare money.

Spend it on booze at the casino.

No. Overly dramatic would be in Hookers and blow.

I am just saying that this crowd funding is not the be all end all in getting stuff, and it is taking a turn,( not always for the better) based on some of the more "Successful" projects.

- MY Issue is that they are using the KS to get a gak load of money by selling items on the site. It isn't about funding anything, other then sell a few more things.

-MY Issue is that streach goals are turning it into giving the perception that you are getting something exclusive, even though they are not.

- My Issue is when a "Goal is set, it is getting to the point where someone asks for a small amount, and ends up getting more by selling stuff on the site.

- My Issue is when you put it out there that you are offering a gak load of stuff, then come back and delay on it, or misprice it... the issue is there.


I don't say that they are dubious for making money. I'm saying in the way in which they slant to make the funding.


This is how I see it. If it isn't the case, then hey- Just must be me.
"We need X to make Y! You can pledge for X(,But we really are looking to get W) SO we're also offering A, B and C ( FOR SALE ALREADY) but we will give you a chance to get it here... - the proceeds of which will go towards making Z! "

Because they already have enough for X,Y,and Z.

MY Issue is that I perceive it as shady because they are not just looking for X. They set it up as a sales gig to make Z.

I get it, We want to make money. I'm cool with that, but to do it in some ways as have been evolving is the issue.

H.B.M.C., I KNOW you don't have to buy the fries again. I am saying that if it is a goal, then give it as a goal, then. "Option to buy" is not really a goal. NOR is saying you need X when you in fact are looking for Z.


It gives the impression that they are moneygrabbing.

THEN to get into the other stuff, such as customs, tax, postals.... NOT put in the end prices....

Its in the detail on how it is being done.

Thank you for boiling it down to bullet points. Let's address them, shall we?

 Grot 6 wrote:
- MY Issue is that they are using the KS to get a gak load of money by selling items on the site. It isn't about funding anything, other then sell a few more things.

What is this based on?

Looking over all the Kickstarters I've gotten involved in, all of them had add-on's for more $$$. They were:

Zombicide - Add-ons don't yet exist. Pledged funds go towards making them.
Sedition Wars - Add-ons don't yet exist. Pledged funds go towards making them.
Reaper Bones - Add-ons don't yet exist (in plastic 'Bones' format). Pledged funds go towards making them.
Relic Knights - Add-ons don't yet exist (in plastic). Pledged funds go towards making them.
Leviathan/Crusaders - Add-ons don't yet exist. Pledged funds go towards making them.

In all five of these instances the add-ons do not currently exist, and thus any pledged funds went directly towards creating them. Is that not what KS is for?

 Grot 6 wrote:
-MY Issue is that streach goals are turning it into giving the perception that you are getting something exclusive, even though they are not.

How do you know these items aren't exclusive? What basis do you have for the assertion that they (or at least some of them, specifically the things that have been said to be exclusive) are in fact not exclusive?

 Grot 6 wrote:
- My Issue is when a "Goal is set, it is getting to the point where someone asks for a small amount, and ends up getting more by selling stuff on the site.

And the stuff they're selling, using the 5 different KS's I've been involved in, did not exist, meaning the extra money went directly towards creating those items (and the main goal). And if they get 'extra' money, what's the big deal? The extra money helps them make a profit (which is good) and also alleviates some of the shipping concerns.

Shipping concerns?

Yes, shipping concerns. I went into Zombicide with a friend and paid US$40 for shipping (I believe). The box cost them US$95 to ship to me. The 'extra money' you seem to dislike helped them pay for the huge shipping costs it takes to send something to the other side of the world. They're not taking the money and buying a second Ferrari.

 Grot 6 wrote:
- My Issue is when you put it out there that you are offering a gak load of stuff, then come back and delay on it, or misprice it... the issue is there.

And again, we'll need some examples here. I've already mentioned the (moot!) Sedition Wars one. Got any others?

I don't say that they are dubious for making money. I'm saying in the way in which they slant to make the funding.

 Grot 6 wrote:
This is how I see it. If it isn't the case, then hey- Just must be me.
"We need X to make Y! You can pledge for X(,But we really are looking to get W) SO we're also offering A, B and C ( FOR SALE ALREADY) but we will give you a chance to get it here... - the proceeds of which will go towards making Z! "

What's for sale already?

All the Bones Stuff? Yep, on sale already as metal miniatures. The Relic Knight stuff? About half of it was already on sale... as resin miniatures. Zombicide? Nothing. Sedition Wars? Nothing. Should I go on?

 Grot 6 wrote:
It gives the impression that they are moneygrabbing.

How? Where? In what way? You haven't explained yourself in a manner that makes any sense or follows any logical pattern or path. Your jumbled assertions are unsupported. It is unclear as to what you're talking about because your claims so far do not match up with the reality of the situation.

I think at this point it might be time to try to steer this thread back on topic, which is specifically about Sedition Wars.

Grot 6, if you have issues with the way Kickstarts for gaming products are being set up, and you still think you have a point to make, I would recommend taking some time to assemble your thoughts on the issue into some sort of coherent format and starting a new thread to discuss it rather than derailing this thread any further.

Edit: OT remarks redacted.

As for the kickstarter... is it November yet? :(

Wasn't it shipping soon? They said they were very near to having it read.

Anyone see any pictures of the Jada Lilly Battle Suit?

Next couple of weeks was the release date.

 Grot 6 wrote:
Anyone see any pictures of the Jada Lilly Battle Suit?

Next couple of weeks was the release date.

Wasn't the estimated date in November?

(It's mid-September)