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Joey wrote:
Most armies don't have sargents that can take an armour upgrade.
IG certainly don't. Sniper rifles could kill a commissar and all the sargents in a turn, then make the blob pin and never get up. So, yeah.

If you have a power weapon (With no specail effects) you get a parry save. It's a ++6Sv. Witch means the Srg. in IG squads have a +5/++6 save if he has a power sword, witch makes him a different Armour group.

If you can take a power sword for your Srg, you can make his Armour class different.

Basically power fists got got REALLY bad, unless you can somehow give your guy a different Armour sv besides from a power sword.

Joey wrote:

Lockark wrote:

ChocolateGork wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Directed Hits can be generated in nearly every attack sequence if you build you army for it (and you will). It means your Sergeants are dead and you can't ever take any upgrades unless it's for the whole unit.

You're right, but one important thing to consider is that you can also give armor upgrades to your Sergeants to avoid this effect ('eavy armor on Nobz, ghostplate for Dark Eldar, power weapons for just about anyone in CC) or deploy other units as screens to avoid Directed Hits on the rear units. Further, you can use Strategy Points to purchase the Shielded USR for important units, making them wholly immune to Directed Hits.

While the Directed Hits mechanic is indeed powerful and armies will adapt to be able to dish them out (I'll certainly be beefing up my unit of Scouts with sniper rifles) there are also counters to this mechanic that you'll be able to build into your lists as well.

However this means that you need to allocate wounds to his armour group if there is enough wounds. Which is worse if directed hits aren't in the equation.

Correct me if I'm wrong but.... You allocate wounds to Armour groups basically the same way we allocate wounds to wargear groups now. So that would mean you would have to cause 9 wounds to a 10 man tac squad, before you are forced to allocate one to the power sword srg.

So realy it would be no different from now. (Well. Unless the srg. is part of the same Armour group of course.)

Most armies don't have sargents that can take an armour upgrade.
IG certainly don't. Sniper rifles could kill a commissar and all the sargents in a turn, then make the blob pin and never get up. So, yeah.

Buy some conscripts, make a shield wall with them. Don't want to do that? Use another weaker squad to play human shield wall for more important squads, Or just use your tanks for the 5+ cover save.

Joey wrote:Most armies don't have sargents that can take an armour upgrade.
IG certainly don't. Sniper rifles could kill a commissar and all the sargents in a turn, then make the blob pin and never get up. So, yeah.

You're right, but you don't need armor upgrades on sergeants to counter Directed Hits-- it just happens to be one way of doing so. You could instead line up a Conscript squad, cheap Infantry squad without upgrades, etc. in front of your assault blob, preventing the enemy snipers from using Directed Hits against you by providing a screen. Once you make it to assault, the parry saves from the power weapons on your Sergeants and Commissar kick in, putting them in a separate armor group and preventing them from being singled out by enemy unit leaders and characters.

ShumaGorath wrote:If you can't believe that a space marine player is complaining then you probably don't pay attention to the marine codexes. They aren't all gray red or silver, some of them are pretty terrible.

You're certainly right that Space Marine armies are less common at tournaments these days than Grey Knights, Space Wolves, or Blood Angels, but keep in mind that that's comparing three army lists to one army list. I would naturally expect there to be roughly 3x the number of non-vanilla SM players than vanilla SM players (and in fact slightly more, given the existence of Codex: Black Templars and Codex: Dark Angels). That said, high level players do very well indeed with vanilla SM-- I believe Ben "spacecurves" Mohile won or placed multiple GTs this year with an unconventional Vulkan list, for instance.

If you look at this list from Blood of Kittens, you'll see 3 Space Marine players winning major events on the circuit-- indeed, Space Marines are tied for second place with Orks, with only Space Wolves doing better, and only then by one result. Tyranids didn't even make it to the list.

I Just saw this here. So I got a few questions. What is with this evasion thing now!? It sounds like a massive pain in the butt! I mean if something has like evasion X and nothing in your army has a BS that can hit it does that mean that your only option is to assault it or what?

Also whats the deal with titans and Flyers? I DO NOT WANT THEM IN MY BASIC 40k GAME!

40k games give me a headache enough with all the odd rules people try to freaking do! I cant compete with people dropping freaking str 10 AP1-2 blasts that cost their freaken psychers inside of transports 100 freaken points and all the other jerk arsery stuff people do to me already. How am I suppose to keep up with air planes and a titan shanatigans?



I have the feeling that 40k is gonna become 40k Apocolypse and all those apoco models and rules are being combined. If so than I might quite 40k depending on how it all feels after the dust settles.

yup! I was right. Super Heavies and Gargantuans and flyers and Cold Blood a Lizardmen Ability. So they are essentially doing away with Apoloclypse rules and making warhammer 100% apocolypse game rules with some modified turn rules a few new stuff to make things fresh and fun and tons of extra added in stuff to confuse us..


Damn...damn..DAMN DAMN DAMN DAMN! [b]

Field Gen wrote:I Just saw this here. So I got a few questions. What is with this evasion thing now!? It sounds like a massive pain in the butt! I mean if something has like evasion X and nothing in your army has a BS that can hit it does that mean that your only option is to assault it or what?

Also whats the deal with titans and Flyers? I DO NOT WANT THEM IN MY BASIC 40k GAME!

40k games give me a headache enough with all the odd rules people try to freaking do! I cant compete with people dropping freaking str 10 AP1-2 blasts that cost their freaken psychers inside of transports 100 freaken points and all the other jerk arsery stuff people do to me already. How am I suppose to keep up with air planes and a titan shanatigans?



I have the feeling that 40k is gonna become 40k Apocolypse and all those apoco models and rules are being combined. If so than I might quite 40k depending on how it all feels after the dust settles.

I'm pretty sure you're not going to have to worry about any of those things you're concerned with. Also, xanax.

Lockark wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but.... You allocate wounds to Armour groups basically the same way we allocate wounds to wargear groups now. So that would mean you would have to cause 9 wounds to a 10 man tac squad, before you are forced to allocate one to the power sword srg.

Power Swords don't provide saves to shooting.


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junk wrote:Question, is there anything preventing teleporting directly into CC?

Yes, you still can't make contact without an Engage, Charge, or Charge by Chance (which is from Rams).

DarknessEternal wrote:

Lockark wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but.... You allocate wounds to Armour groups basically the same way we allocate wounds to wargear groups now. So that would mean you would have to cause 9 wounds to a 10 man tac squad, before you are forced to allocate one to the power sword srg.

Power Swords don't provide saves to shooting.

That's correct. Parry saves from power weapons only put you in a separate armor group in assault. This can in some ways be a boon, since it means you can't be torrented by shooting, but it also renders you vulnerable to Directed Hits from snipers or Covering Fire.

You're certainly right that Space Marine armies are less common at tournaments these days than Grey Knights, Space Wolves, or Blood Angels, but keep in mind that that's comparing three army lists to one army list. I would naturally expect there to be roughly 3x the number of non-vanilla SM players than vanilla SM players (and in fact slightly more, given the existence of Codex: Black Templars and Codex: Dark Angels). That said, high level players do very well indeed with vanilla SM-- I believe Ben "spacecurves" Mohile won or placed multiple GTs this year with an unconventional Vulkan list, for instance.

If you look at this list from Blood of Kittens, you'll see 3 Space Marine players winning major events on the circuit-- indeed, Space Marines are tied for second place with Orks, with only Space Wolves doing better, and only then by one result. Tyranids didn't even make it to the list.

That list was about as unconventional as putting sugar in your coffee. Vulkan with tac squads running combi meltas and flamers, a thunderfire, assault terms with hammers, a libby, and some typhoon speeders is hardly unconventional. When I close my eyes and imagine a salamanders army it's pretty much what I see in my head. I'd say micheal ruskas list was stranger, mixed marine armor with preds, dreads, thunderfires, and vindicators is a much more unusual build to use within the generic marine codex.

Either way, two out of the three armies shown utilize vulkan (who himself is singnificantly undercosted given that he's an incredible force multiplier in the meta and within that codex). I don't want to use vulkan. I have a charcharadons army, if I'm going to powergame it a bit for better success I'd be better off building an identical blood angels list and using the savings in cheaper dev squads and upgrades to throw in some priests to give universal FNP (having more deep-strike accurate and scoring assault troops that end up being cheaper than in C:SM is a nice bonus).

I've repeated several times in this thread that there is sort of a monobuild that C:SM can put out that can have some pretty good success. It involves vulkan, th/ss, mobile combis and assault weapons with multi meltas in tac squads (which are taken in two mounted squads and no more), with some typhoon speeders for popping long range opponants and a thunderfire for dealing with or slowing threatening hordes/deathstars. It's been floating around for years and used to have a lot more success back in its heyday. I'm aware that it's there, but it's not greatly representative of the codexes quality at large since it requires a specific force multiplier character and specific comp choices to function well. It has some major weaknesses too.

I will confess that I was unaware of wins other than molies though. I had that one painted as kind of a fluke, but maybe theres more legs left in the old vulkan list than I had thought.

I read through the character sheet and the orks section and nothing has changed. So what is the deal with that codex update. JOTWW, Waaagh and all that works the same as it did before.

ShumaGorath wrote:I've repeated several times in this thread that there is sort of a monobuild that C:SM can put out that can have some pretty good success. It involves vulkan, th/ss, mobile combis and assault weapons with multi meltas in tac squads (which are taken in two mounted squads and no more), with some typhoon speeders for popping long range opponants and a thunderfire for dealing with or slowing threatening hordes/deathstars. It's been floating around for years and used to have a lot more success back in its heyday. I'm aware that it's there, but it's not greatly representative of the codexes quality at large since it requires a specific force multiplier character and specific comp choices to function well. It has some major weaknesses too.

Ah, cool. In my area, lists like Mr. Mohile's are less common-- while I've seen a lot of Vulkan armies with TH/SS termies, taking heavy bolter Razorbacks over Rhinos or Plaserbacks, Thunderfire cannons over Dakka predators, Typhoon rather than Tornado speeders, Attack Bikes, or normal/"Phobos" Land Raiders instead of Redeemers or Crusaders would all be considered unusual choices.

One other interesting army list I've seen is that of Dameon Green, who won the Colonial GT with this unusual force. I think that Codex: Space Marines has a lot of versatility out there and that there's hope beyond the monobuild.

In addition to all the above, I've anecdotally heard of Shrike builds doing very well, and I've personally enjoyed some modest success with my own Marines (who don't have any special characters, just a barebones Librarian) at the local/RTT level. Are Grey Knights and other new armies powerful? Sure, but I think the Space Marines codex is much more adaptive than one might expect. Fundamentally speaking, the Combat Tactics/Chapter Tactics rule allows Space Marine armies to change all or almost all their units to fit into a new paradigm, and most armies don't have that luxury.

Ah, cool. In my area, lists like Mr. Mohile's are less common-- while I've seen a lot of Vulkan armies with TH/SS termies, taking heavy bolter Razorbacks over Rhinos or Plaserbacks, Thunderfire cannons over Dakka predators, Typhoon rather than Tornado speeders, Attack Bikes, or normal/"Phobos" Land Raiders instead of Redeemers or Crusaders would all be considered unusual choices.

They've been the choices that seem to have been faring well in tournies the last few years in my observation. The thunderfire has sheer superiority and firepower over the dakka pred and it's ability to slow oncoming units is a great aid against hordes/deathstars. Attack bikes can almost always pay for themselves with vulkan if directed carefully as well. Twin linking makes them a vastly more reliable unit. The typhoons and phobos are there to de mech at range or gun down dangerous pockets in spread armies. The vulkan lists AT is very short range and it needs alternatives.

One other interesting army list I've seen is that of Dameon Green, who won the Colonial GT with this unusual force. I think that Codex: Space Marines has a lot of versatility out there and that there's hope beyond the monobuild.

I kinda suspect that the thunderfire is the hidden gem in these lists that's helping them keep up with ork hordes and draigowing simultaneously. I'm still surprised these lists aren't being knocked out of contention by mechspam guard or msu wolves, but it's possible they aren't fighting them.

In addition to all the above, I've anecdotally heard of Shrike builds doing very well, and I've personally enjoyed some modest success with my own Marines (who don't have any special characters, just a barebones Librarian) at the local/RTT level.

I used shrike until recently. He works ok, there are neat tricks you can pull (flanking cyclone missiles!), but without th/ss spam it's hard to make fleet viable or useful in the build.

Are Grey Knights and other new armies powerful? Sure, but I think the Space Marines codex is much more adaptive than one might expect. Fundamentally speaking, the Combat Tactics/Chapter Tactics rule allows Space Marine armies to change all or almost all their units to fit into a new paradigm, and most armies don't have that luxury.

Thats true in theory, though I find that the chapter tactics don't diversify very well. Vulkan is blatently useful, but marneus, ld10, stubborn, fleet, and flanking don't really do a tremendous amount for the army. ATSKNF makes ld 10, stubborn, and auto morale passing kinda pointless, and the codex isn't good enough in combat outside of th/ss for fleet to be great either. Assault marines could make great use of it, but they lose to many non dedicated assault squads in the game at cost.

Stubborn in 5th is great because of things like weaken resolve and fear the darkness. THSS termies are a brick, but get them running and you escort them off the table. Because of this potential threat, and the normal benefit of not running or taking fearless saves in combat, stubborn has a nice place in 5th ed.

Anyway, the rules I am not happy with are directed attacks and multitrack.

As some have said, directed attacks can be amazing or amazingly useless. Sniping PF sarges and heavy weapons from a squad with relative ease with some armies seems silly. Yes, there are some counters, but no counter is 100% effective all the time.

On the flipside, some units, either by design or gameplay trick like screening units, become immune to directed hits. In this case, you trivialize directed hits, and if they are trival then what is the point of having them?

Thus, the way I see it, either they are too good, breaking game balance, or useless, adding a complex mechanic with lots of following rules that does nothing. In both cases that is bad game design. I expect this to have been changed in the playtest phase, as it does not fit with the feel of the rest of the rules.

4th ed had a better rule in my opinion that was also simpler. If you deal enough wounds to fully saturate a squad, then you can make 1 model in the squad take a save. How I would change this rule to fit with 6th is that each time you fully saturate an armor group, you can pick 1 model within that group that rolls seperately. The defending player chooses which wound gets allocated, unless there are directed wounds, in which case the defending player may only choose from the directed wounds.

What this change does is make directed wounds only hit one model at a time, and ONLY if an armor group is fully saturated. If you cant fully saturate an armor group, then there are simply too many models in the unit shielding the leader/heavy weapon. Thus, in the example of sniping out a powerfist sarge, you can still do it, and directed weapons still are good, but you cant do it with a single shot, directed or not--the defending squad knows enough to keep sarge safe.

After all, if an intervening squad can protect the defending unit's sarge, why can the defending unit do the same?

Compel wrote:The amount of 12 years olds that Games Workshop have trained up into thinking that the Pyrovore is the greatest unit ever made is truly terrifying....

With some of these 6th Ed. rules, the Pyrovore is looking pretty good...

ShumaGorath wrote:That list was about as unconventional as putting sugar in your coffee.

Hey! I put sugar in my coffee!

DarknessEternal wrote:

Dribble Joy wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Dribble Joy wrote:
Also remember that directed hits are chosen after saves are taken, and a character's hits are rolled separately.

Not if he has the same armor.

I mean the attacks caused by a character.

That's irrelevant. The save grouping is all the matters. Also, very few Directed Hits are going to be allowing armor saves.

I wasn't talking about whether or not a character is eligible for being selected as a casualty as a result of Directed Fire, but the circumstances under which they can perform them and the unlikelihood that they will cause any wounds.

Field Gen wrote:I read through the character sheet and the orks section and nothing has changed. So what is the deal with that codex update. JOTWW, Waaagh and all that works the same as it did before.

Waaagh is actually notably different now. Firstly, one has to declare it at the beginning of the turn, but most importantly, instead of just allowing your infantry to assault after they run, it now adds +2" to their base movement value.

This means that units looking to charge get a 14" assault radius, but it ALSO means that units that don't want to get into combat still get to move 8" for whatever reason, which is nice.

You're generally going to want to combine it with trukk delivery, for a 22" radius delivery. 14" trukk move (with red paint), and 8" disembark engage (since you now move your models from the exit points of hte transports). It's generally the best way to recreate the current non-waaaagh delivery options, which was 13" move, 2" disembark, 6" assault. (21" delivery radius).

In regards to Directed Wounds, just giving my nobs Eavy Armour allows them to be buried again as they are now - having to kill off the entire unit to get to him. Since the player with directed hits can only allocate those hits within the armour group I'm allocating wounds to, as long as I'm not allocating wounds to the nob's armour group, he's untouchable.

It's also nice that immobilizing vehicles has a much more dramatic effect. Currently, it meant I auto hit with my PKs in CC, but with the new rules it has the additional danger of being easier to hit in ranged as well. My Lootas hitting immobalized tanks on 3+ is groovy, by grots hitting them on 2+ is bloody fantastic.

5+ KFF is completely dissolving my attempts to actually GET to the enemy, though :(

Kharrak wrote:This means that units looking to charge get a 14" assault radius

16". You add the modifier and then double it. Example of such given in the Fleet rules.

You're generally going to want to combine it with trukk delivery, for a 22" radius delivery. 14" trukk move (with red paint), and 8" disembark engage

You can only disembark at combat speed. So Engage has a 'range' of 7" + 8" = 15". Charge gives you 7" + 16" = 23".

5+ KFF is completely dissolving my attempts to actually GET to the enemy, though :(

It's still a 5+ save that most vehicles won't get, though hopefully the KFF BM will become less ubiquitous and other HQs will pop up more often.

WazDakka can move 24" and hit stationary tanks on 3s with his Assault 4 Str8 gun of doom!


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Quick question.

Meganobs have Slow and Purposeful and thus the Lumbering rule, which prohibits the use of any other Movement special rule.

Am I correct in thinking then that they can't use Fleet as part of a Waaagh!?

Dribble Joy wrote:You can only disembark at combat speed. So Engage has a 'range' of 7" + 8" = 15". Charge gives you 7" + 16" = 23".

Yeah, I see it now - just too used to moving 13" and jumping out. So, I see that units can charge out of an open topped vehicle, meaning that, as you say, 7" movment, plus 12" charge = 19" non-waaagh threat range, and a 23" waaagh threat range.

Dribble Joy wrote:It's still a 5+ save that most vehicles won't get, though hopefully the KFF BM will become less ubiquitous and other HQs will pop up more often.

Oh I agree - and it does excite me to see myself challenged in finding a new way to play my race. But at the same time I'm scratching my head to think of ways to keep my vehicles intact during that perilous period of time before my first wave (trukks) hit the lines. My kanz, grot tanks, and Battlewagon are all "massive", so opponents will be hitting them with +1 BS. But yes, it's all about learning to adjust!

The Pyrovore is a train wreck that wont be saved by 6th ed.

Shuma - about Space Marines - speaking as a Tyranid player, imo vanilla SM is the weakest 5th ed codex. I can count the number of my losses against SM on two fingers. With that said, Tyranids have more hard counters popular in tournaments - DE Venomspam, GKs and perhaps SWs to some degree. And I'd wager that a Hormagaunt horde itsn't really tournament viable in 5th ed. While it might suck that they happen to counter the list you chose to play, and that your friend happen to play them, sounds more like bad luck than anything else. Kind of silly to complain about Tyranids, in the view of how GW has treated the army and us who plays them.
If there is anything I wish with my Nids, it is to be able to field a competitive horde, instead of Hive Guard/Genestealer spam. When I started the hobby I jumped on Tyranids, I imagined them as the premiere horde army of 40K, like in Starship Troopers. Found out it wasn't really viable. I really hope that 6th ed brings in more viable ways of building Nid lists.

But I agree with you that vanilla SM doesn't get enough whining.

Math hammer FTW!

Current chance to kill a Battlewagon (assuming BS4 but penetrating hit and KFF):

66% (chance to hit) x 50% (wreck) x 50% (KFF) = 16.7%.

Chance to kill in new rules (assuming moving wagon, BS4, penetrating hit and KFF):

83% (chance to hit) x 33% (chance to wreck) x 66% (KFF) = 18.5%.

Not a lot in it.

Melta weapons get no damage bonus (as Open topped removes the -1 damage for Tanks that Melta nullifies).

They also now cannot be killed by glancing hits.

I don't use KFFs with my DeffWing (double WB), so my wagons are considerably tougher than at present.

ShumaGorath wrote:Either way, two out of the three armies shown utilize vulkan (who himself is singnificantly undercosted given that he's an incredible force multiplier in the meta and within that codex). I don't want to use vulkan. I have a charcharadons army, if I'm going to powergame it a bit for better success I'd be better off building an identical blood angels list and using the savings in cheaper dev squads and upgrades to throw in some priests to give universal FNP (having more deep-strike accurate and scoring assault troops that end up being cheaper than in C:SM is a nice bonus).

Why do you whine and whine when clearly all you need to do is swap books? Why try to play space sharks in a codex that does not support the correct play style? And then why complain so loudly about how the sky is falling? Insane. Switch books, try a couple games.

ph34r, I'd put it in a different way, but to the same effect.

Some units will be less balanced than others. There is little point in forcing others to adapt to these units, just as there is little relevance in discussing it in this thread here beyond what we have already done so far - beyond establishing the fact that they aren't as glorious as their points might indicate.

Proposed Rules forum is that way, over where most discussion regarding what can be done with Pyrovores and Guardians are taking place (and oddly enough also the place where the shortcomings of units such as Long Fangs are being attempted to be mended, I know it's a silly place).

Dribble Joy, I didn't notice the changes to Melta. Will be an interesting read once I get home. Especially since I happen to play a race that typically fields entire squads with them

Mahtamori wrote:Dribble Joy, I didn't notice the changes to Melta. Will be an interesting read once I get home. Especially since I happen to play a race that typically fields entire squads with them

Tanks get -1 on the damage table. AP1 nullifies this.

Aside from that AP1 has no affect on other vehicles.

That rule alone is why I hope this is true, if only to hear the cries of anguish of those who worship the meltagun as if they were holy relics. WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW?!

Luke_Prowler wrote:That rule alone is why I hope this is true, if only to hear the cries of anguish of those who worship the meltagun as if they were holy relics. WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW?!

He's in your base, killing your tanks with his meltagun.

Spazmortis wrote:Hi everyone.

Im new to this forum and have been absolutely addicted to reading this thread

I really hope these are a good representation of the 6th edition rules.

The reason Im posting is because I have a question regarding warlocks with channelled witchblades and fortune cast on them.

Will this mean that you can channel the witchblades to reroll your 4++ and cast fortune on them to reroll the failed result of the first reroll?

I really hope so

As was mentioned, you only get 1 reroll, but that's a 75% of an invuln save. That's better than a SS

I just realized how balls-to-the-walls crazy the Emperor's Champion would be at killing MEQ infantry with these rules (better than he already is, mind you!). As is, the one threat to the Champ sweeping his way through squads are power fists; if he can go for them first and remove them...

AlmightyWalrus wrote:I just realized how balls-to-the-walls crazy the Emperor's Champion would be at killing MEQ infantry with these rules (better than he already is, mind you!). As is, the one threat to the Champ sweeping his way through squads are power fists; if he can go for them first and remove them...

There's a reason he's called the Emperor's Champion.

Had a quick gander on the leaked rules last night, and what interested me most was the change to ork red paint job.

It says that a vehicle with RPJ adds +1 to its move characteristic, so I'm under the impression that the new move system doubles/triples the move characteristic, so when we move double our move, we actually gain 2" from RPJ rather than 1 (as it now specifies that we add 1 to MV, not add 1" to total move).

Leigen_Zero wrote:Had a quick gander on the leaked rules last night, and what interested me most was the change to ork red paint job.

It says that a vehicle with RPJ adds +1 to its move characteristic, so I'm under the impression that the new move system doubles/triples the move characteristic, so when we move double our move, we actually gain 2" from RPJ rather than 1 (as it now specifies that we add 1 to MV, not add 1" to total move).

It's not entirely clear, but given the Fleet precedent, it seems so.

Trukks would be able to go 21" Flat Out.