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So obviously, everyone recognizes TAU for three things:
-Unforgiving TACTICS
-Powerful ranged weaponry

and...

superior lack of any CC ability, or CC shielding.
Now, I know immediatly everyone who knows TAU is going to say something along the lines of " They arent supposed to get into CC, or thats what sacrificial units are for, or Kroot are a decent option" I myself am an advocate of Kroot, and know and run Mech TAU, yet I realized something very recently. Tau have access to a very underused weapon, one which isnt hurt by their surprisingly poor BS, and one of only 2 cover ignoring weapons in their arsenal: the flamer.

Now once again, I know that a lot of experienced players will say this is no new idea, yet the use of them is and isnt what this whole discussion is about. Its not the idea of using flamers, its the matter in which they are used and the abundance of them in an army. Now Every TAU player I know, including myself(or used to be myself), is afraid of, in fact, deathly afraid of heavy CC units anywhere near their main force. As well, I have yet to hear of a player who has ever been slightly nervous of even sending in his mediocre units into CC with TAU. Even against their so-called specialists, Kroot, people dont hesitate to through in a small survivable unit knowing that it has a high probability of "tarpiting" the Kroot for an extended period.

I had a revelation in a recent game against a green tide ork list:
KFF Mech
Warboss
4x20 boys
some kanz

The game was Annihilation, Dawn of War, and I knew that using standard tactics, I had no chance of winning the battle against so many bodys, almost all if not all covered by kanz or the KFF. Now, I ran my all-rounder list, which I always do being a tournament player and wanting to modify it or myself in any way to make me a better player, and as per my list I had 3 crisis teams, a commander joined to a deathrain team instead of his usual body gaurd, 2 HHs, a broadside team, 2 9 man mounted FW units, 2 kroot units and a small pathfinder contingent. My deathrains commonly are equipped with twin missiles and a flamethrower, and I never really payed attention to the fact that my deathrains had flamers other than filling the last slot, a cheap slot fill, and a last resort backup if there was no chance for escape. Now, normally, I would try to keep moving and use weapon superiority and speed to stay as far away from the ork force as possible, and eat away at them.

Two obvious problems arise from this common mech tactic, one, tau dont have a real majority fire scenario or MRS, meaning, like eldar the ability to really overkill a target, as most units are effected by BS3 and the inability to take groups that can move rapidly and fire a heavy amount of firepower. Yes, fish of fury has proven itself to be a decent tactic, the only problem being that say this tactic is used, one full fire warrior squad and a devilfish that moved 12", the squad hops out, rapid fires, thats 24 shots at BS3, add another 4 from the SMS on the Warfish, so 28 total, out of that 28 only an average of 14 will hit, and only roughly 9 will wound. Now with a 5+ cover save, that means that around 3 will save so through all that fire, a grand total of 6 orks of 20 are killed, and next turn they are on you. Now, if the target is markerlighted, with say 3 markerlights, this will drastically change the results, but that means that your pathfinder unit is dedicating shots to that one squad, and everything else in the army, if there are more important targets, are being ignored.

Long story short, I tried something interesting. Normally I keep my deathrains as far back as possible in order to destroy transports and stay safe. Instead, without any transports to pop, I chose to keep them a relative 18" away from his force. I decided to try an overkill tactic using flamers to destroy his entire left board edge and allow me to take control of that entire side and have access to outflank him, and cover my kroot support when it arrives. He did as expected, charge his entire force up in a single line straight at me, I responded by relocating almost everything to the left, while holding a HH and the broads on the right to keep some split fire on his right flank in case I needed to lure him that way further.

Nothing much happens for the first 2 turns, hurt a couple Kanz, and further flanked to the left. He expected that I might be trying to lure him away from my main force with the HH and broads, so he decided to try and completely envelope my main force. I responded by luring his first large unit as close as possible, but spread out enough that his own units would provide a roadblock for the rest of his army. And then, in a very unexpected set of events, I proceeded to annihilate his entire lead squad in one round of shooting. this was not done with fish of fury, or any other common tactic, but instead by using my deathrains in a concentrated attack on his squad. I moved up to within a few inches from behind cover, unleashed 6 flamers, and killed all but the wounded nob, who failed his moral test. From this point on, I realized I only needed to devote these two squads against his troops, and intermediate others, and have everything else fire on his kanz, the only serious threat should it get close. After four more turns, he had one badly hurt boyz mob, a warboss with 2 wounds left, no mech, and only one kan. I had only lost a single firewarrior squad, with a really bad DT role, and a kroot squad. Simply put, I had my first ever massacre with my TAU, and my opponent was as happy and surprised as me that TAU had finally been able to really give him a challenge. You see, by holding the entire left side, I managed to be able to have my kroot come up right behind me, he was forced to funnel down the side, and he had no fast way of getting on top of me, his max assault range being 18" on a waaagh!

I realized at that moment, that people had the right Idea with twin linked flamer units, except that they should not be DS, but instead used on a commonly used deathrain squad as serious CC support and destruction. Now, I simply could have been lucky, or had the field to my advantage, or simply played a bad opponent, but I felt it neccesary to share this reverance as now I know why I should always pack on the flamers to dish out some duely needed TAU justice. TAKE THAT ORKS!!

Things that made this game work for you:

Refused Flank versus a footslogging horde with little/no long range firepower

A predominantly shooty army

Poorly armored targets and mass flamers

Honestly, good for you.

Crisis suits with flamers, to be used properly, end their turn within ~10 inches of their target. Versus Marines, that's a very unsafe distance.

The nice thing about Space Marines these days is that they're reasonably vulnerable to pinning. Likewise a unit of Orks that's had its pants burned off should be amenable to pinning. Sounds like a good reason to take some spare Gun-Drones to force a pinning check on the survivors.

Something to consider about configuration then would be: A Flamer, a Missile Pod, and a Drone Controller. Take two pairs of Gun-Drones and a pair of Shield-Drones. Aside from providing firepower, the Drones can suck up the firepower that'll come your way, and hopefully die instead of the suits in close combat.

Reminds me of the tactics I read for SoB. Jump out, shoot double tap and BURN THEM.

If only the fish of fury squads could take a flamethrower as well as the suits....

(oh, and about the marines thing, unless they are DEATH COMPANY a charging marine squad isn't all that scary to a 3+ armor squad...unless they have a power fist.

In that case stay the hell away and pound them with heavy guns.)

starbomber109 wrote:Reminds me of the tactics I read for SoB. Jump out, shoot double tap and BURN THEM.

If only the fish of fury squads could take a flamethrower as well as the suits....

(oh, and about the marines thing, unless they are DEATH COMPANY a charging marine squad isn't all that scary to a 3+ armor squad...unless they have a power fist.

In that case stay the hell away and pound them with heavy guns.)

they have a power fist.

They always have a power fist...

But, I like the flamer idea. Flamers aren't statistically that worse than plasma, actually...

(from a previous post)

Vs various armor types:
Assuming plasma gets two shots up close:
vs 6+ saves, T4, the flamer needs to hit 2.22 orks to kill the same as plasma
vs 5+ saves, T3, the flamer needs to hit 1.67 GEQs to kill the same as plasma
vs 4+ saves, T3, the flamer needs to hit 3.33 TEQs to kill the same as plasma
vs 3+ saves, T4, the flamer needs to hit 6.67 MEQs to kill the same as plasma
vs 2+/5++ saves, T4, the flamer needs to hit 8.89 terminators to kill the same as plasma

This is not taking into account cover saves, which further hurt plasma's statistics.

Statistically, vs a terminator squad, I'd take plasma, as its hard to get 9 models under a single template (if they even take 9 termies)
vs Power armor, I'd take the flamer. You only need to hit 7 to beat plasma, which is definitely doable.

This is assuming BS4 plasma shots. BS3 plasma makes the flamer look even better by comparison.

Against Terminators you can just hit them with the Missile Pods.

Just played a game today against MEQ, an ultra marines list with 4 tac squads in rhinos, a couple dreads in pods and a command squad, and a pred. Tactic worked again, forced him to one flank, 2 tac squads and the pred followed, command squad who was deployed furthest away followed, but was far off.

Crept up with DRs, popped his rhinos, tac squads with melta las killed both my HHs w/ amazing double 6 rolls, which of course my cover saves failed miserably. Tac squads saw the suits close, ran within spitting distance to try and scatter me, dropped both Dreds in the same turn right next to my main force, things looked grim until my broads killed one of the dreads and one fish I used to block the command squad popped the other ones rear armor. W/ the dreds gone I was confident it was all over, killed the running tac squad with flamers, jumped back, rinse repeat.

Tau, the new Sisters! Burn the non-heretic!

Couldn't this tactic be applied using a reverse of that configuration to better effect? Heatwaves not DSing, that have secondary missle pods to pop the transports? This could essentially function without help, too. Pop the transport, squad runs at you next turn, JSJ them with twin-linked flamers! I'm gonna try that next time I play Tau.

Interesting. I'll have to inform my Tau friend. He runs a mech list similar to yours. I don't think I'll be taking my orks out against him anytime soon though.

I just imagined the possibility of stealth suits with flamers... that would be AWESOME!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I hope the new dex has that ...

Flamer suits can be fun to play with. Back when I ran Tau, our FLGS owner teleported over with his Necron Lord and a full squad of Warriors in order to rapid fire on my lines. Validity of this tactic aside, it was beautiful to see that big cluster of Necrons and my squad of flamer-equipped Crisis suits within striking distance.

Apparently this didn't get done much, as when I declared my shots, I heard someone say "Oh, so THAT's what those things on his suits' arms are!". There was much maniacal laughter to be had.

Flamers don't just make your suits get assaulted, it means they get shot by everything the opponent has. Normal 30" range means they can avoid pretty much everything including rapid fire weapons.

With flamers, even if you do break a squad of marines, you are going to get shot the crap out of and they are going to regroup in a turn or 2.

As much as I like spending 150 pts to kill 90 pts of marines, I will continue to pass on flamers.

Flamers can help to make sure your suits don't get assaulted. Fire bad...

Timmah wrote:Flamers don't just make your suits get assaulted, it means they get shot by everything the opponent has. Normal 30" range means they can avoid pretty much everything including rapid fire weapons.

With flamers, even if you do break a squad of marines, you are going to get shot the crap out of and they are going to regroup in a turn or 2.

As much as I like spending 150 pts to kill 90 pts of marines, I will continue to pass on flamers.

QFT.

Suits match up really well with markerlight support to make them alot nastier than running with flamers.

Flamers, if theatrically used properly, can deter assaults as well as completely break a squad which cannot regroup.

Take marines,(dont forget this has been playtested), squad A marines and squad B marines attempt to catch your large flanking force as they are the closest units to your force to respond. Keep in mind that most people actively spread their armies out so that rarely will they be able to respond with everything, in other words, if everything is right, go left. Back to point: both squads are mounted and attempt to catch the tau while on the move or atleast stall enough for reinforcements to arrive.

Because the Tau have elected to assemble on a board side, this means they can be directly reinforce by outflanking squads, as well, they are forcing the opponent down the more narrow side of the table comparitevly allowing them the ability to move over the full length of the board. This means its much easier to allow only one method of approach for them, straight on, as its easier to block the side table edge from enemy flankers and being naturally more narrow, the sides act as a bottle neck or funnel. This would also help block DS'ers as there is far less room to allocate a drop zone. Say there is only one patch of forest on the side, roughly 10" long going parralel to the side of the table. If you were to have your flame/deathrain suits behind this JSJ'ing over the terrain and back, as well as a entrenched unit within the forest, this makes a very hard barrier to get around.

So squad A is closer to the tau, B is behind A, they both move straight at the Tau. Just using the deathrains, the Tau JSJ and manage to destroy/wreck/explode the squad A rhino. Squad A now without transport and either in the vehicle crater, behind the vehicle or pinned in former vehicle's position have few options but to charge at the Tau or stand and shoot. all viable Tau are protected by cover so far harder to eliminate.

Choice 1: CHARGE! the marines move/run, or move/rapid fire. tau all get saves and now are also in rapid fire range to the marines, regardless. Say A runs, and makes it to within 2" of the unit in the woods. There is almost no chance of survival as the suits are now easily within flame range, and 3 flamers alone would inflict such horrendous wounds that the cover unit would almost not have to fire on squad A, but can if neccesary.

JSJ back behind cover, and wait fro the next squad to try. If he takes an opposite tactic, forcing him to redirect is part of the concept, they now realize that getting close is dangerous and the longer his transports are away from you, allows more time for you to dispence serious justice on them. It is extremely specialize, yes, but thats the point. Its a secondary weapon, where as the main purpose is using them as deathrains.

I wouldnt use heatwaves for this reason, as 2 BS3 shots are not going to be nearly as effective, and I have found that rarely do you need the reroll wounds with TL flamers. If you find that you need them, then you most likely shouldnt be firing on that unit.

gameandwatch wrote:Keep in mind that most people actively spread their armies out so that rarely will they be able to respond with everything, in other words, if everything is right, go left.

People do this? Can I play your opponents?

gameandwatch wrote:
Back to point: both squads are mounted and attempt to catch the tau while on the move or atleast stall enough for reinforcements to arrive.

Why would I try and catch a suit that can't do anything unless it comes to me?

gameandwatch wrote:
So squad A is closer to the tau, B is behind A, they both move straight at the Tau. Just using the deathrains, the Tau JSJ and manage to destroy/wreck/explode the squad A rhino. Squad A now without transport and either in the vehicle crater, behind the vehicle or pinned in former vehicle's position have few options but to charge at the Tau or stand and shoot. all viable Tau are protected by cover so far harder to eliminate.

What happens when you don't wreck the rhino? Your flamers stand there and look pretty?

Tau already have a 3+ armor save, cover doesn't help them that much.


Ok so here is what really happens. Deathrains pop a transport. You move up and flamer the marines, killing say 3. Squad breaks. And flee 7". Squad auto regroups. Other rhino moves up. You now have 17ish marines in rapid fire range who can easily torrent through 6 wounds with 3+ armor saves.


Just through stats:
3 Flamers hits 6 each. (somehow) 9 wounds, 3 marines die.
or
6 plasma shots. 3 hit, all should wound, 3 dead marines.

Plasma can also be used at long range, and anti armor.

Sure flamers are better against GEQ, but missile pods, plasma should easily be enough to deal with GEQ anyways. Flamers would just be overkill. Plus the whole, only being able to wreck 1 of the 2 squads.

SO your overall point is arguing that plasma is better, while completely ignoring what I actually said in my post. If you had read I pointed out SPECIFICALLY that the flamers are a back-up system, a secondary weapon system in fact, that their main purpose is to act as deathrains. Yes it is possible the rhino doesnt get popped, unlikely, but very possible. In that case, any strategy would be altered.

I dont understand your first comment, do your opponents not deploy?

If a squad of deathrains hit a marine squad, at maximum all they need to break them permanantly is 6 marines. That means statistically, 3 unsaved wounds or more from the flamers are possible, and that would mean only three more wounds are needed. That aint very much.

Most tau have 4+ saves, only suits have 3+ saves, BS of course have a 2+ save.

After the marine unit gets flamed, they would jump shoot jump back behind cover, why would they be left out in the open? As well, what marine player in their right mind would fire their entire army at one squad of deathrains?

If you had read my earlier post, I pointed out that its not just the deathrains flanking, its 70% of the army, please read the OP.

Once again I point out, flamers fill a cheap SECONDARY weapon slot, specifically just for deathrains. I disagree whole heartedly that fireknives are worth their points. A regular fireknife costs 62pts(plasma, missle, multi) thats an absurd amount of points for a model that has BS3, 4T and a 3+ armor save... Yes they have jetpacks, but they can be instakilled by any S8 weapon which there are plenty in fifth. Fireknives were all the rage in 4th, they are no longer point worthy in 5th. You argue that plasma on a BS3 model is worth it. AT 24"(30") you have 1 shot that hits half the time, at 12"(18") you still will likely only hit with one of those two shots. is that worth it to you, I suppose so, to me, not a chance way to unreliable for the points cost.

YOu talk about overkill on GEQ, how is overkill bad for TAu? A race thats renowned in 5th edition for not being able to do significant enough damage to be competitive... Once again, how would only one squad get wrecked, Tau is about diversion and decisive damaging. They dont have the ability to overrun an enemy. If both units A and B were sent side by side, one would be getting hit by only one or two MENTIONED units in the entire Tau army.

For my short-range Crisis suits, I run Flamer/Plasma with Shield Generator, Hard-Wired Drone Controller, and 2 Shield Drones.

Deep-strike in (usually, although I may just move them up the battlefield...depends on the terrain), Jump for Movement Phase, shoot Flamer/Melta at available targets, and Jump back. Sure...it's a vulnerable squad, but it has ALWAYS bought it's points back, if not more.

So a plasma will kill only 1 marine at 12" range. Sure

How many is a single flamer suit going to kill? 1.

The difference is that the fireknife has an extra S6 shot at your preferred range. You don't have to get in close to do your thing.

Suits flaming and then jumping back into cover are still exposed because they are still in rapid fire range. Is that cover save going to save you from torrent of fire from bolters? (not to mention your dangerous terrain check)

Btw, marines can regroup under half strength...

Couple other things.
Most good armies don't spread themselves out. They bunch up and attack part of your army. So when you go into flame, even if you somehow kill the squad, you are going to be in range of most of your opponents army and you are going to die very quickly. I would rather spend 15 more pts on a suit that isn't going to die the second after it does its job.

Overkill is bad because you don't need it against GEQ. Kroot can mop up most GEQ squads after you hit them from long range with MP/Plasma. You are exposing your suits for no reason.

I feel flamers are only good if you have a slot open and it needs filing, and for some reason you don't want the black sun filters.

There is a quality to eeking out as much damage potential out of suits as you can, but I don't think it needs this much prior thinking ahead.

Don't listen to the nay sayers. If the flamers work for you, run them. Playtest everything, then enjoy the smirk when you kick someone's ass with something that they think sucks.

I have shelved my tau as I work on marines at the moment, but for most of 5th I played with designs, and still do.

I ran the hell out of twin linked flamers and missile pods. I think the deathrain with the single flamer is probably a better way to go now that mech is king.

My thoughts were that you have to clear troops off an objective. I wanted to be able to do so many wounds to a unit that they were effectively nothing. You deep strike three suits with twin linked flamers on a marine squad... will do it. Use the marker beacon to make sure your DS is right.

Flamer usually hits 8, three times, so 24 hits. 12 wounds, re-roll the ones that missed, 18 wounds. Six dead marines, and then some of the long range fire can come in to clear the rest off. I generally don't put a lot of models off the table, and use my broadsides and hammerheads to make the enemy come at me. If it's an objective, just knock their vehicles out as you wait for your crisis suits to come in. I then send them against their weaker support units. Devestators, landspeeders, scouts, whatever they have on the wings.

As to how many it will kill vs a plasma... well... I'm glad that where you play the marines don't get cover. Usually the marines I shoot at are either in vehicles, or are standing on a objective. If they get a cover, your ap2 just went to gak :-(. Six plasma shots, three hits, three wounds 1.5 dead marines in cover.

Also the suits I ran, with 3 suits, and I also had 4 gun drones, was around 150 pts.

How the heck are you hitting 8 marines with a flamer? Are you opponents trying to lose? No seriously, do they group up there marines in nice tight circles with a big "please template me" sign above them?

Marines without cover?
Have you heard of markerlights?


Playing everything in a vacuum (especially with Tau) doesn't work.
Markerlight marine squad, remove cover, up BS with any extra marks. 2 teams of Crisis suits fire from range. = dead marines. And you aren't close enough to take any retaliation small arms fire.

Uggg, once again...read my posts so you actually comment correctly when quoting what I say, dangerous terrain is a nono, I said jump back BEHIND cover.

Ok, you like fireknives, I think we all understand that, I dont understand the whole playing in a vacuum remark, and assuming that everyone that is contradicting your opinion is is rude. Have you ever even ATTEMPTED to use flamers. Your assuming, so Im assuming that you havent ever tried them, as most Tau players I know will admit(which numbers in the 20s, big LGS, and they are all GT players but not always for Tau) have never tried flamers simply because they see close range on a Tau suit and shivers go up their spine.

And, um, yes, statistically 3 fireknives will hit with only 3 of those plasma shots at 12"(18"), and most likely wound with all 3, which is fine, 3 dead marines without cover saves, not to mention missles havent been used yet. HOWEVER, if with that BS, this makes a very expensive unit unreliable, and I hate to tell you, but if you are in rapid fire range, then they will be. You jump forward 6", are within rapid fire, jump back 6", that means they move 6" up, rapid fire you back, so I dont understand your point, and as most squads are running meltas in their squads now, that means unless you have drones, there is a possible, and likely, instakill shot. statistically, within rapid fire range, a marine squad will out perform a fireknife squad. Just the way it is.

Once again, I point out. FLAMERS ARE A SECONDARY WEAPON SYSTEM!!! The main purpose of the suits are to act as deathrains, killing transports and heavy infantry/monstrous creatures... I dont understand why this is such a problem to understand. Do you run deathrains? What do you give them?

@sanctjud Your right, Blacksun filters are a perfectly viable option, but that was not the idea I was attempting to discuss here. Its something I have certainly considered, especially for that 1/3 chance of Dawn of war where it would be useful, or those occasional tournament games where everything is night fight, but as suits already have acute senses, I never really think about using them.

@Timmah: once again I will say, we are not arguing the viability of fireknives, yes they have been "proven" but mainly in a 4th edition environment, its the cold truth that you dont see many tau armies making high in the 5th tournament setting, therefore, tactics must be reworked...

Timmah wrote:How the heck are you hitting 8 marines with a flamer? Are you opponents trying to lose? No seriously, do they group up there marines in nice tight circles with a big "please template me" sign above them?

Marines without cover?
Have you heard of markerlights?


Playing everything in a vacuum (especially with Tau) doesn't work.
Markerlight marine squad, remove cover, up BS with any extra marks. 2 teams of Crisis suits fire from range. = dead marines. And you aren't close enough to take any retaliation small arms fire.

Timmah, you clearly don't play Tau often...

Marine squad in cover: 4+ cover save
4 Markerlight Shots (Hits): Removes cover save

And after that, 50% of your Markerlights used to 'up the BS' are effective...

And as stated by a previous poster, you tactic on Jumping into Plasma RF range doesn't work...

As stated early, Fusion Blaster/Flamer have worked pretty well for me, and although Plasma is useful, I've found it to be less useful at closer ranges than other Tau weaponry. We've been talking about Marines thus far...but against Orks, Tyranids, IG, Tau, Dark Eldar, and Eldar...I've found the Fusion/Flamer build for specific squads only to be incredibly useful...especially with the rise in Mech armies.

On deathrains flamers are a great secondary weapon system. Eventually the enemy will get near you. That's just how the game goes most of the time. Well unless you play Apoc which is something else entirely.

Now the flamer at close range will hit more targets than the missile pods. Does this mean use this primarily? No it does not. You want to stay far away but someone running up to you and being in range of your flamers means you can nail more hits on the unit rather than having 2 shots per suit for missile pods. Fireknives at most can get 4 shots. A flamer can easily cover 4 models. If you can't get it to do that then the unit is either out of coherency or you are simply targetting wrong with a template.

Is this the best CC weapon? Well it's not a CC weapon. In close quarters combat it is a very good weapon. Used right it is amazing which the OP is trying to say. I would say that taking it as a backup system is a great idea and something I already do for my deathrains. Would Twin-linked ones be a great idea? No because that is not my play style and quite frankly my play style has been working for me so far so I just feel a need to tweak it and not change the core of it.

Just my 2 cents.

Timmah wrote:
Just through stats:
3 Flamers hits 6 each. (somehow) 9 wounds, 3 marines die.
or
6 plasma shots. 3 hit, all should wound, 3 dead marines.

Actually if three plasma shots hit you should only expect three wounds 58% of the time

( that's (5/6)^3) )