Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

For the about the same number of points as:
2 x 10 Veterans with 3 special weapons in Chimeras
you can get
Platoon in Chimeras with Platoon Command Squad with 4 Specials in a Chimera, 2x 10 Infantry with one special and 1 heavy in a Chimera.
You get 3 squads and 3 vehicles with the Platoon when you get only 2 squads and 2 vehicles with Veterans. The big caveat is regular guardsmen are bs3. This isn't a big deal for the Platoon Command Squad because the obvious choice is to give them 4 Flamers. This is really awesome against any infantry squad. The Infantry squads probably are best to just give them an Auto Cannon because it has more then 1 shot and a bs3 las cannon misses half the time and you can't use the bring it down order on squads in vehicles. Special probably would be a Grenade Launcher if any.

The vets can get 3 specials most likely Meltas or Plasmas and a heavy as well. The BS4 Las cannon sounds better then a BS3 one for sure.

I'm liking the Platoon in Chimeras. Gives you more scoring units but you have more kill points and the 4 Flamer Platoon command is pretty good at burning infantry. I do lose out on anti tank and anti mech from taking Vets with meltas or plasma though and the bs3 heavy is slightly underwelming.

Runing Vets with 3 plasma and a las cannon is tempting for some decent anti transport.

Rest of the list would includes 2 more vets squads with meltas and demolitions that go in Valkyries for the alpha strike if I get first turn.

What do you think?

I usually prefer to mount my vets in Vendettas instead of chimeras on almost any occasion. Valks afford you better protection and far more mobility, a key element when using melta or plasma vets.

At 2000 points I put only 4 chimeras on the table; one for my CCS, one for each of my PCS, and one for a PBS. Combine that with two valks with vets and 3 LBRTs and you are already saturating the field with armor. IMHO putting ground pounding infantry squads in your tanks is something of waste, especially considering your other point allocation alternatives.

Manstein wrote:I usually prefer to mount my vets in Vendettas instead of chimeras on almost any occasion. Valks afford you better protection and far more mobility, a key element when using melta or plasma vets.

At 2000 points I put only 4 chimeras on the table; one for my CCS, one for each of my PCS, and one for a PBS. Combine that with two valks with vets and 3 LBRTs and you are already saturating the field with armor. IMHO putting ground pounding infantry squads in your tanks is something of waste, especially considering your other point allocation alternatives.

But valks are reallly big models, and the vets can't fire outside of them, and once vets are exposed to the battlefield they die fast. Oh and don't forget you can get 2 chimeras for every valk you take. Now im not saying valks are bad. But I would not take them over chimeras if I could only take one. Also banewolfs are a fast atk choice and they really really give guard the advantage in the mech war.

Also a 3 melta vet squad in a 2 heavy flamer chimera costs 155 points and is good vs everything. Being able to take 4-5 of these in as small as a 1500 point game is a HUGE advantage over any mech counterpart in the game.

Platoons in chimeras however are not as reliable, because they lack the heavy punch 3 melta guns have.

Yes they are cheaper then vets but to save enough points to add another unit you have to take quite a few of these.

Of course there are some times where mounting a platoon can work (like when you make 1 squad sit back on your objective, and mount an inquisitor in a chimera) or taking al ream but most of the time i'd rather take vets.

I'm fan of gunlining the platoon and using the veterans for support.

Lately I've been thinking about using the Platoons over veterans. I find that I'm having to many problems with a lack of troops using veterans, especially when you have melta squads going up in Valks, they die quick. I'm finding that it's better to take platoons, do what you outlined, giving them one special weapon and a heavy weapon, and then taking special weapons teams to fly up, losing the special weapons teams isn't as harsh since you have more scoring models to begin with.

vonjankmon wrote:Lately I've been thinking about using the Platoons over veterans. I find that I'm having to many problems with a lack of troops using veterans, especially when you have melta squads going up in Valks, they die quick. I'm finding that it's better to take platoons, do what you outlined, giving them one special weapon and a heavy weapon, and then taking special weapons teams to fly up, losing the special weapons teams isn't as harsh since you have more scoring models to begin with.

Try vets in a chimera, they might be half as fast but they can fire meltas out of their top hatch, which means your opponent has to pop the chimera before the vets die a horrable death. Also remember you can get 2 chimeras for the price of 1 valk.

vonjankmon wrote:Lately I've been thinking about using the Platoons over veterans. I find that I'm having to many problems with a lack of troops using veterans, especially when you have melta squads going up in Valks, they die quick. I'm finding that it's better to take platoons, do what you outlined, giving them one special weapon and a heavy weapon, and then taking special weapons teams to fly up, losing the special weapons teams isn't as harsh since you have more scoring models to begin with.

I had a problem like this too. What might be burning you is putting meltas on veterans. I had 3 vets in chimeras with meltas, and when my friends battlewagons or land raiders showed up in my lines, I'd drive up 6" away, usually needing to turn my chimera a certain way to get the fire point in range, and take my shots. The following player turn was always the same. In turning my chimera, I exposed armor 10, my chimera would get popped by something, and then whoever fell out of the land raider of battlewagon would gobble up my troops. Thats a fine exchange on a point for point basis, but the problem was that I'd usually lose a chimera with vets to shooting, I'd lose a unit after it did its melta work, and I'd be left with a single chimera to win the game with.

Next thing i did was start running foot platoons in my mech armies. That worked very well. A lot of armies can't kill 30 stubborn guardsmen in cover, but there were some matchups where fast assaulters with good armor saves didn't mind being plugged into an assault for a couple of turns, and are free from being shot at. it helped in screening vehicles from charges, and I think the list type is more than adequate. But for faster, less matchup dependent games, I went back to vets.

This time however they were relieved of melta duty. I picked up a second melta CCS, and gave my vets plasma. Now they hang back more, and they clean up terminators, drop pod marines, anything that falls out of a land raider, bloodcrushers. With their ability to hang back more, and the vitally important job of melta delivery moved completely to the expendable CCS, I have had a much easier time keeping them alive, and keeping the area in front of my tanks clear of dangerous units. Plus, my prediction is that we are all going to need plasma when thunderwolf cavalry make the scene. they are too fast and too good at killing vehicles for us to just pick at them with single shot meltagun.

Shep wrote:
I picked up a second melta CCS, and gave my vets plasma. Now they hang back more, and they clean up terminators, drop pod marines, anything that falls out of a land raider, bloodcrushers. With their ability to hang back more, and the vitally important job of melta delivery moved completely to the expendable CCS, I have had a much easier time keeping them alive, and keeping the area in front of my tanks clear of dangerous units.

I had the exact same thought. I'm thinking 2 Melta CCS in Valkyrie and PG vets in Chimeras.

Shep wrote:Plus, my prediction is that we are all going to need plasma when thunderwolf cavalry make the scene. they are too fast and too good at killing vehicles for us to just pick at them with single shot meltagun.

I cannot stress this enough - Thunderwolf Cavalry can tear anything apart.

Their optimum build are TWC with Storm Shields and 1 with TH. They sometimes have one with the mark too. BEASTLY!!!

I'd fully go for the most experienced soldiers, the Vets.
Each squad can have three special weapons. That's awesome.
If you mount them into transports, you have a very flexible army.

radiohazard wrote:

Shep wrote:
I picked up a second melta CCS, and gave my vets plasma. Now they hang back more, and they clean up terminators, drop pod marines, anything that falls out of a land raider, bloodcrushers. With their ability to hang back more, and the vitally important job of melta delivery moved completely to the expendable CCS, I have had a much easier time keeping them alive, and keeping the area in front of my tanks clear of dangerous units.

I had the exact same thought. I'm thinking 2 Melta CCS in Valkyrie and PG vets in Chimeras.

Shep wrote:Plus, my prediction is that we are all going to need plasma when thunderwolf cavalry make the scene. they are too fast and too good at killing vehicles for us to just pick at them with single shot meltagun.

I cannot stress this enough - Thunderwolf Cavalry can tear anything apart.

Their optimum build are TWC with Storm Shields and 1 with TH. They sometimes have one with the mark too. BEASTLY!!!

that config will also cost A TON of pts... they shouldn't be that much of a problem if you can spam shoot melts at them and maybe blast a chem cannon or 2 at them.

wuestenfux wrote:I'd fully go for the most experienced soldiers, the Vets.
Each squad can have three special weapons. That's awesome.
If you mount them into transports, you have a very flexible army.

Especially when your chimeras have 2 heavy flamers to make up for your lack of troop killing!

Well my current list has 2 x 10 Vets with 3 meltas and demolitions in Valkyries (sometime uses these for a first turn alpha strike) and I'm trying to decide between either 3rd and 4th Veteran Squads with Specials and a heavy in Chimeras or Platoon Command with 4 Flamers in Chimera and 2 Infantry Squads with special heavy in Chimeras.

Might go with 4 Vets with the first 2 being 3 meltas with demolitions in valkyries for the alpha strike potential 3rd being Meltas in a Chimera with a las cannon and 4th being Plasma in Chimeras with a Lascannon and see how that works out.

Krootman
Valkyries with Vets with Demolitions allow for alpha strike potential if you get first turn to destroy their vehicles unless they block them with infantry or start off the board. You can somtimes get around the infantry blocks with a platoon command with 4 flamers also in a valkyrie.

How have Banewolfs worked out for you? Banewolf sounds to me like it gets a melta gun in the tailpipe often having to get so close to use its chem cannon. I really like Valkyries for the alpha strike potential and outflanking shots on side armor.

I take my Chimeras with Multi laser and hull heavy flamer. You can't fire 2 heavy flamers after moving so I rather have a multi laser to fire at range then insurance for weapon destroyed results.

Mounting a Platoon of PCS with 4 Flamer + 2 Infantry with special heavy in Chimeras costs slightly more then 2 Vets with 3 specials each in Chimeras. Nearly the same if the vets have heavies. The Platoon loses out on bs and number of special weapons.

vonjankmon
Thats a problem I was finding if I would use the 2 Vets with melta bombs in the Valkyries to first turn assault. I didn't have that many troops left hence the Platoon in Chimeras but other then the 4 FLamer PCS which is great against infantry the infantry squads have been sort of lackluster with BS3 and if things get close up they don't have the meltas or plasma the vets have.

Shep
I'm at about the point you are. I've tried the 30 platoon with 3 las cannons and a comissar. Sometimes its good but if you get the side with no cover in deployment zone its pretty bad and in certain match ups its pretty bad.

Leaning towards all mech vets but again have the scoring troops problem.

You do have a good point about needing plasma to kill Thunderwolf calvary. I just playtested against that last night and 3 units of them was really brutal. Maybe Strength 10 AP2 would be decent for the insta kill but they can take stormshields.

radiohazard
I would go with 3 or 4 Meltas in the CCS. 2 doesn't quite get the job done.

Your right Thunderwolf calv are a bear got beat last night in a playtest game vs 3 units of 3 with 1 thunderhammer 1 stormshield each. Ouch.

Yea its nice to be able to have a alpha strike unit... but you can still have 1 or maybe 2 of them and 4 other vet squads mounted in chimeras.

Regarding your platoons, losing out on the bs and the special weapons is a big deal. 155 points for a mounted unit with 3 bs 4 meltas is at least 100 points cheaper then a decked out tac squad. its kind of hard for me to explain how good they are. You have to see a mounted guard army in action.

Finally I didn't mean the banewolf i ment the one with the chem cannon. Sorry

Krootman wrote:Regarding your platoons, losing out on the bs and the special weapons is a big deal. 155 points for a mounted unit with 3 bs 4 meltas is at least 100 points cheaper then a decked out tac squad. its kind of hard for me to explain how good they are. You have to see a mounted guard army in action.

In practice, foot platoons are actually more accurate than mounted veterans for most of the game. They are usually equipped with autocannons, and they are usually under "bring it down" orders.

Krootman wrote:Finally I didn't mean the banewolf i ment the one with the chem cannon. Sorry

One and the same.

Shep wrote:

Krootman wrote:Regarding your platoons, losing out on the bs and the special weapons is a big deal. 155 points for a mounted unit with 3 bs 4 meltas is at least 100 points cheaper then a decked out tac squad. its kind of hard for me to explain how good they are. You have to see a mounted guard army in action.

In practice, foot platoons are actually more accurate than mounted veterans for most of the game. They are usually equipped with autocannons, and they are usually under "bring it down" orders.

Krootman wrote:Finally I didn't mean the banewolf i ment the one with the chem cannon. Sorry

One and the same.

Heavy weapon spamming is a thing of the past, in 5th ed 40k you will get maybe 2 turns tops to fire your bs3 heavy weapons and 1 of those turns your opponent will deploy smokes. Those are not very good odds. I know you have bring it down but when your opponent is swarming you with tanks you usually don't have enough to stop them in 1-2 turns. (This is from my own experiences of course.)

I could only justify taking a mounted platoon if I took the outflank character or the if I needed to get more chimeras in a list in bigger point games that I would normally run out of troop slots fast.

As for the banewolf sorry about that, I always mix their names up. Imo its amazing in mech vs mech battles. Think about it, your mech vets drive froward and pop a transport with 3 melta guns then the banewolf that moved 12 right next to the transport you poped fires its 2+ 2 wound ap3 flamer. Poof sm squad in rhino is dead.

Its a great combo especally when you can have multiples of it!

Have you seen the unreasonable amount of heavy weapons infantry IG can field? Have you ever seen what 20+ autocannons (plus Multilasers and what-not) can do to a Mech army, regardless of smoke? Anything that does not get destroyed is stunned or immobilized, giving you more time to kill it. On top of that, all these heavy weapon squads are scoring, leaving the rest of your mounted Infantry Platoon to push for the objective.

The downside is that they are vulnerable to infiltrating/outflanking assault units. The answer to this can be found within the Platoon; either blob squads with a Commissar (forcing you to sacrifise your Mechization), or better, using Conscripts with Chenkov and Send in the Next Wave. With SitNW (sit northwest, heh) you can destroy the conscripts yourself, at the end of his turn, opening the assaulting unit to your entire heavy weapons force (and your PCS with 4 Flamers, muhaha). Then the Conscripts come back. Rinse and repeat. Sprinkle orders where ever needed.

A proper IG force can do both Mech and Infantry Spam in equal measure. A single Infantry Platoon can give you all the parts for a solid infantry core, with lots of heavy weapon scoring units. Then you can be riskier with your Vets without fear of losing your scoring base.

DarkHound wrote:Have you seen the unreasonable amount of heavy weapons infantry IG can field? Have you ever seen what 20+ autocannons (plus Multilasers and what-not) can do to a Mech army, regardless of smoke? Anything that does not get destroyed is stunned or immobilized, giving you more time to kill it. On top of that, all these heavy weapon squads are scoring, leaving the rest of your mounted Infantry Platoon to push for the objective.

The downside is that they are vulnerable to infiltrating/outflanking assault units. The answer to this can be found within the Platoon; either blob squads with a Commissar (forcing you to sacrifise your Mechization), or better, using Conscripts with Chenkov and Send in the Next Wave. With SitNW (sit northwest, heh) you can destroy the conscripts yourself, at the end of his turn, opening the assaulting unit to your entire heavy weapons force (and your PCS with 4 Flamers, muhaha). Then the Conscripts come back. Rinse and repeat. Sprinkle orders where ever needed.

A proper IG force can do both Mech and Infantry Spam in equal measure. A single Infantry Platoon can give you all the parts for a solid infantry core, with lots of heavy weapon scoring units. Then you can be riskier with your Vets without fear of losing your scoring base.

Heavy weapon squads are quite easy to break, as in 1 round of shooting they have to test on ld 7. As a long time ork player I can tell you that testing on leadership 7 usually leads to bad things happening. Also you better hope that you pop most of my chimeras and banewolfs fast or I will be tank shocking the living crap out of your units, which disrupts your deployment and makes it easy to isolate and destroy your army.

Im also not really worried about conscripts considering they really dont have any weapon capable of poping a tank I can just tank shock them or burn them to death.


You are right about platoons having their uses because they do, I just think you don't need more then 1 min sized platoon to give you some more scoring units. Vets are soo much better then normal guardsmen.

Another benefit of heavy weapon squads is that they are segmented. Breaking them has less of an impact because there are so many. EDIT: I forgot to mention the CCS' Standard. Re-rollable Ld7 is just over 75% reliable, which is nothing to spit at.

At 1500, I think you'll be fielding 8, maybe 9 Chimera bodies (including 3 Wolves). Against 5 Heavy Weapons teams, 4 Chimeras and a few Leman Russes, it'll be close. On turn one, you'll be down 3 Chimeras with smoke, and lose half the remaining on turn 2 (firguring I lose 2 squads and a Chimera), or atleast so says the math. Turn 3 gets ugly as you scatter my several of my Heavy Weapons teams, but the Russes and remaing Chimeras will mob up your Chimeras. If I make sure the Vets don't make it to my lines, my Russes will be able to clean up the Banewolves. After that, it is Meltavets and token Russes (I assume you took a couple) scattered about the field vs several infantry squads/heavy weapons, a blob of Concsripts, Chimeras and Russes.

The problem with Meltavets, I've found, is that they can't fight as they push up the field. If they make it to the enemy, they open the enemy up to a whole lot of punishment, but only from other elements of your army. If they can't make it, you've shot youself in the foot. Platoons field more stuff, and with orders you can set them on par with Veterans at their various tasks. Granted, both are benefitted by working together, and I generally find you only need a single Platoon, which you keep bolstering. Vets can fill the remaining slots.

Darkhound, could you post a list for your mixed infantry/mech idea? I think you might be a bit optimistic as to what can fit in 1500 points, 5 heavy weapons teams (375+) 4 chimeras (220) and 3 leman russes (450+) doesn't leave many points for the necessary infantry and HQ squads. Very interesting to hear your ideas on infantry and combined tactics though, lots of people online just seem to stick with veterans, valkyries, and tanks, bugger all else in their lists, which is a bit dissapointing.

DarkHound wrote:Another benefit of heavy weapon squads is that they are segmented. Breaking them has less of an impact because there are so many. EDIT: I forgot to mention the CCS' Standard. Re-rollable Ld7 is just over 75% reliable, which is nothing to spit at.

At 1500, I think you'll be fielding 8, maybe 9 Chimera bodies (including 3 Wolves). Against 5 Heavy Weapons teams, 4 Chimeras and a few Leman Russes, it'll be close. On turn one, you'll be down 3 Chimeras with smoke, and lose half the remaining on turn 2 (firguring I lose 2 squads and a Chimera), or atleast so says the math. Turn 3 gets ugly as you scatter my several of my Heavy Weapons teams, but the Russes and remaing Chimeras will mob up your Chimeras. If I make sure the Vets don't make it to my lines, my Russes will be able to clean up the Banewolves. After that, it is Meltavets and token Russes (I assume you took a couple) scattered about the field vs several infantry squads/heavy weapons, a blob of Concsripts, Chimeras and Russes.

The problem with Meltavets, I've found, is that they can't fight as they push up the field. If they make it to the enemy, they open the enemy up to a whole lot of punishment, but only from other elements of your army. If they can't make it, you've shot youself in the foot. Platoons field more stuff, and with orders you can set them on par with Veterans at their various tasks. Granted, both are benefitted by working together, and I generally find you only need a single Platoon, which you keep bolstering. Vets can fill the remaining slots.

How many russes do you actually expect to field in 1500 if you have 3 thats a 3rd of your army right there. In 1500 the list im working on atm has 11 chimera bodies (including 3 hyrdas for some fire support) and marbo. With proper deployment in a board with 25% cover I can really hide my tanks well turn 1. Turn 2 I pop smokes and turn 3 I proceed to burn everything.

Your list relays on alot of units that have shaky leaderhship, and are very slow not very good in 5th ed. Now even if your theory is even half sound mounted guard really has no army they can not destroy while I could name about 10 different armies that could table your list.

Eh, I don't know Krootman. You have 3 (mega) Autocannons for fire support for the 3 turns before you reach the enemy. If they are squadrened, you can only fire at one thing at a time. The Meltavet's Chimeras aren't going to be firing as they press up the field. You aren't reducing the enemy's firepower as you get there, so you'll be taking a steady stream of damage for 3 turns. If you make it to the enemy with only 3 Chimera bodies (say, 2 Wolves and a Chimera), you are as good as stuffed. The immobilized Chimeras and stranded Meltavets aren't going to be able to make it to the enemy to do their jobs.

While I may have shaky leadership (between the Standard and Get Back in the Fight! they have just under the same morale as Space Marines with ATSKNF, so I disagree), I have redundancy. Lots of segmented bits, which means losing squads to morale checks means less (however infrequently that happens).

What I don't have is slow units. You have 5 Chimeras with scoring units? I have 4, plus all the aforementioned firepower that also scores. I have better longer ranged firepower, while you have superior close range fire. While that will give you some advantages against conventional mech and some hordes, you've shot yourself in the foot against skimmer mech lists and bikers: Chem cannons can't damage vehicles, and Meltaguns are woefully short ranged. Those (mega) Autocannons are going to be the first thing to go against those lists, and they aren't terribly durable. I have a spread of weapons and the ability to deploy blobbed (sort of), or segmented, or even play it Mech.

Now for that strange person who damages old people: I don't have my list at hand. I'll grab it later and PM it to you, but off the top of my head it was:

CCS, Standard, Master of Ordinance, Chimera (all with hull mounted Flamer)
PCS, Chimera
Infantry Platoon, Chimera
Infantry Platoon, Chimera
4 Heavy Weapon squads
40 Conscripts
Penial Squad
Leman Russ
Leman Russ
Deathstrike

After some dirty math, it may have only been 4 Heavy Weapon squads. I'll see in a few hours.

Not taking your list into account. Your tactics vs my list may be sound, and are hard to argue against my list from a competitive standpoint vs pretty much every other army in the game can not be compared. Mech guard demolishes every other army in the game while I can name 5-10 lists of the top of my head I could demolish your guard list with.

So yes I will conceed that in some cases a mixed guard force can beat a mech guard force but in the grand scheme of things a mech guard force is far superior in the field.

O and how are you rerolling lderships for your heavy wep squads? (Another thing you didnt consider about heavy wep squads is they are 2 wound models which really bites the big one.

The only proof you are offering is simply that Mechvets are better because they are. Name these 5-10 lists you've been hinting at. Explain why they would win, so that we can build to counter it. Also show why they wouldn't do the same to your build, if you care to spend the extra time. Show me statistics, show me strategy and coherent logic.

Meltavets and Banewolves have great coherency the way you use them, but you've built a list around only that. They do have failings, and I believe you haven't compensated for them. You lack a spread of weapons that competative lists need, and the ability to change your game plan.

The re-roll comes from the Regimental Standard the Company Command Squad carries. Being two wound models does suck, but it can be planned around. They can still fire out of Chimeras, and they can hide in cover.

The only proof you are offering is simply that Mechvets are better because they are. Name these 5-10 lists you've been hinting at. Explain why they would win, so that we can build to counter it. Also show why they wouldn't do the same to your build, if you care to spend the extra time. Show me statistics, show me strategy and coherent logic.

Well with out spending too much energy on this ill name 5-10 lists off the top

1) any kind of drop pod army

2) nob bikers

3) eldar seer super bikers

4) mech ork with zagstruck and komandows

5) deathwing would prob do ok vs this list

6) Horde orks

7) nidzilla

8) Sisters of battle horde

Thats 8 off the top of my heat, im sure I could think of more if given more time.

I really dont have time to show tactics and strat, but im assuming you have alot of experence playing 40k so im sure you can figure out how these lists can trounce your guard list.

Meltavets and Banewolves have great coherency the way you use them, but you've built a list around only that. They do have failings, and I believe you haven't compensated for them. You lack a spread of weapons that competative lists need, and the ability to change your game plan.

Competitive lists usually don't spread out weapons, because if you spread out your weapons then you are taking a big risk fighting someone who spams the crap out of 1-2 things and overloads your ability to compensate.

When building lists for tornys your goal is to spam 1-2 things that you know works and add a little flexibility that will give you the advantage over other competitive lists. When going to a torny (now im assuming we are talking about an upper tear torny not just a LGS rtt where people will bring anything) you have to plan to counter the most powerful armies out there which atm is mech lists.

Mech guard not only counters other mech lists but they destroy them utterly. The addition of the hydras in my list is enough to blunt the majority of the long range fire power coming my way long enough for my tanks to get close and make easy work of my opponent.

I am really not going to go into detail because im again assuming you understand 40k as well as I do and you understand how mech vs mech lists fight each other.

I am also sure we can come to an understanding that thanks to the new 5th ed rules mech lists have a huge advantage over lists that rely on static shooting. To win the day, especially objective based missions.

The re-roll comes from the Regimental Standard the Company Command Squad carries. Being two wound models does suck, but it can be planned around. They can still fire out of Chimeras, and they can hide in cover.

Why would you do that? all I need to do is to stun a chimera and I prevent them all from firing..... Heavy weapon squads are really really bad.... all I have to do is put enough wounds on your cmd squad to kill the standard which is easy, then your hvy wep squads will only need to lose 2 guys 2! to take a ld 7 test with no reroll, not good odds to do anything..

radiohazard wrote:

Shep wrote:
I picked up a second melta CCS, and gave my vets plasma. Now they hang back more, and they clean up terminators, drop pod marines, anything that falls out of a land raider, bloodcrushers. With their ability to hang back more, and the vitally important job of melta delivery moved completely to the expendable CCS, I have had a much easier time keeping them alive, and keeping the area in front of my tanks clear of dangerous units.

I had the exact same thought. I'm thinking 2 Melta CCS in Valkyrie and PG vets in Chimeras.

Shep wrote:Plus, my prediction is that we are all going to need plasma when thunderwolf cavalry make the scene. they are too fast and too good at killing vehicles for us to just pick at them with single shot meltagun.

I cannot stress this enough - Thunderwolf Cavalry can tear anything apart.

Their optimum build are TWC with Storm Shields and 1 with TH. They sometimes have one with the mark too. BEASTLY!!!

why give the TWC a MotW? They already have rending and D6+1 attack is probably going to be less than 5 (including 2 CCWs). I'm just curious.

Krootman wrote:
Competitive lists usually don't spread out weapons, because if you spread out your weapons then you are taking a big risk fighting someone who spams the crap out of 1-2 things and overloads your bility to compensate.

When building lists for tornys your goal is to spam 1-2 things that you know works and add a little flexibility that will give you the advantage over other competitive lists. When going to a torny (now im assuming we are talking about an upper tear torny not just a LGS rtt where people will bring anything) you have to plan to counter the most powerful armies out there which atm is mech lists.

I disagree-- spam lists are often gimmicky and generally fail, either to other spam lists that RPS them or to good generals who know how to beat the gimmick.

I'm going to echo Fetterkey here. Gimmick lists will always run the same way, and so it is like running an obstacle course: with enough practice anyone can breeze through it. Whatever happened to Nob Bikers? We learned how to beat it and it went away (for the most part). Pure Fzorgle is on the decline due to the rise in Mech, and because it is a gimmick it can't adapt. Deepstrike Assault armies are almost gimmicks because they always come down the same way. A shooty army just has to castle up and pick them off as they come down piece meal.

Now Kroot, let me run through the list you put up. It isn't nearly as bad as you think.

1) Castle, and kill them as they come down. They can't outshoot my list if only half their army shows up, and they can't assault off the Deepstrike so I still get to sweep them up. My weapons have a long enough range to cover the entire board so they can't deploy away and group up.
2) 3 S8+ templates a turn, plus the Deathstrike. I can tarpit them with my Conscripts once they've gotten too close, and by the time they've gotten through that (turn 3), they are damage enough to take morale checks. So, I keep up the fire. Anything that isn't instant deathing Nobs is firing at whatever else he has on the field. The important thing against Nob Bikers is not to waste small arms, but the poor Nobs fall appart to Battlecannons and Dreadnoughts.
3) I actually rarely play Eldar, let alone Jetseers. They have a 75% save, but only T3(4). Maybe FRFSRF will fix that? Force enough saves and they will break, and I don't have to waste the big guns on them. They are free to pop Waveserpents. Regardless, it should keep me on my toes, if only due to lack of experience.
4) This I am concerned with because it isn't a gimmick. I'm not certain if you meant Zagstruck with his Stormboyz and Snikrot with his Kommandoes in the same list, or just one or the other. I need to deploy bunched up so that when Zag/Snik comes down I can turn all my weapons on him. Conscripts can be strung out to shield me from a multi-charge, and after they've been killed I can FRFSRF and wipe out Zag/Snik while keeping up heavy weapon fire on the Mech elements. With Bring it down! I can get statistically 5, almost 6 Trukk kills a turn, and my accuracy gets a little better against Battlewagons (easier to hit with Blasts).
5) I don't have anything directly able to take down TEQs, but I do have a rediculous amount of Lasguns. This would be an interesting battle, but it would come down to how he deploys vs when my Deathstrike goes off, because that is going to kill a couple Terminator squads alone.
6) I play a Goff horde/Battlewagon spam (and it is a gimmick), so I know the ins and outs of beating them. Tank Shock 6" to bunch them up and proceed to Heavy Flamer and Large Blast them into oblivion.
7) It is like shooting a 6 Rhinos that are slow, and one or two Landspeeders that melee. Auto/lascannons with Bring it down! love this stuff. Just keep the Conscripts in between you and the Stealers and you are golden.
8) I have never heard of this list. I assume it is susceptable to Battlecannons though? Well, I'll figure something out at the table.

The object isn't to find out how they can trounce mine, but how I can trounce them. Most of those lists are gimmicks, relying on a single strategy. I know their strategy before the game begins, so it stops being about me vs the player and is now just me vs the list. It rarely matters how good the player is behind the list because he is restricted to playing that single way. You need diversity so you can adapt. Poor players need a list that will hold them up by being easy to use, because they can't handle having to adapt, but good players don't need that crutch. A good player can adapt his plan so long as he gives himself the tools to do so. Part of being a good player is list building. Like you said, Kroot, if you go to a tourney with a huge Mech showing, but very little else, a good player will adjust their list. I don't need nearly as many Conscripts against Mech lists, but I'll want to stock up on more Lascannons and maybe switch a Russ to a couple Hydras to counter the light armor. I may even take out the Penal Squad and get a Meltavet Chimera instead.

About taking out the Regimental Standard, I have to say, you couldn't. You don't pack enough long ranged firepower, let alone if I hid my CCS behind a Russ. On top of that, those Hydras kill .3 of a heavy weapons team each. In one round of shooting, you'll kill a single heavy weapon squad, forcing a check I'll pass with either the re-roll or Get back in the fight!. This doesn't affect the other 3 squads, 4 Chimeras and 2 Leman Russes plucking away at your Chimeras. Like I said, I really don't think you have enough diversity to deal with most hordes, gun-lines or bikes/flying mech. You will curb stomp most MEQ Mech lists though.

Last few games I been testing the 4 Vets with 2 with 3 meltas + demo in valkyries, 1 with 3 meltas autocannon in a chimera and 1 with 3 plasma autocannon in a chimera. I do miss the 4 Flamer Platoon command but vets seem to be doing pretty well so far. The plasma vets seem to overheat and die every game. Might have to try the Company Command with 3 Plasma and the Medic. Will maybe get some more games with the mounted Platoon list this week.

Krootman
How do you find yourself affording 6 Vet with 4 in chimeras in a 1750-1850 guard list and still have points for Company Command, Psyker Battle Squad, Vendettas and heavies I can only fit in 4 vet squads with 2 in valks and 2 in chimeras or 2 vets in valks and pcs in chimera and 2 infantry in chimeras, or 2 vets in valks pcs in chimera and 31 man blob?

I been testing both mech and a platoon and I like the advantages of mech but if your using 2 vets with melta bombs as suicide squads to smoke a couple land raiders you have a limited units to score with and they are usually target #1.

Shep
I was leaning towards las cannons in platoons because they are more effective in the mirror match vs av12 and sometimes you have to shoot at av13.

I ended up moving away from the blob because I ended up with the side of the table with no cover to deploy in or easily move to a few times too many.

I added Plasma vets and wow do they overheat and die alot. They do ok if the don't overheat and die on the first firing.

Darkhound
I don't like Heavy Weapons squads. They take a single Strength 6+ wound and your testing on leadership 7 or running and leadership 7 isn't reliable for bring it down.

It isn't terrible, but at the same time the heavy weapon squads aren't expensive. Ld7 isn't the best for orders, I'll give you that, but you get what you payed for, and you didn't pay for the orders. However, with the order you've increased their efficiency by about 50%, which is huge. They can be some of the most points effecient heavy weapons in the game with proper use of orders.

S6+ is bad, but if you take enough of that it is worth just going to ground and getting them back up with an order (and yes, they can continue firing the same turn). The same thing goes even if they do run.

I'm going to be doing purely mechvets in my in progress 1500 list, but as the army gets bigger I'm planning to switch over to a mixed force. Around 2500 or so, I wonder if it would be better to go over to a platoon at that point so I can use a Counts-as Al'Rahem and outflank?