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Does anyone use Vanilla CSM squads with Heavyweaps? looking at my codex, alot of them are cheaper by half than in a Havoc squad, but having my CSM not being able to move and shoot kinda bugs me... you know, the other 9 mangs i need to take to get that Heavy weapon. The only good use i've been getting out of them sitting them on objectives far back in a rhino w/ havoc launcher and a ML or AC on the CSM sitting inside. That and a pair of oblits/havoc squad (yes im a casual player. yes i realize that they aren't really worth the points. They've gone alright in my experience+limited on models ) have made a nice little firebase on or next to a objective. I still feel i could be getting either more use with CSM with 2 special weaps than by using a attractively cheap HW. So Dakka, do you put heavy weaps on your CSM squads? If so why? what are they doing with it? how successful has that been?

I never do, and I love Vanilla CSM. Havocs are IMO better than Oblitz at lower points as you get more shots/wounds, and I've been experimenting at higher levels too. You run into "wasting" everyone who has no Heavy when you fire the one. Just double up on your preferred special (and throw flamers on there for 10 points if you don't have any other particular need).

Yeah I'd take a melta/Plasma or even a flamer.

I Run Noise Marines and Vanilla csm.

Assualt weps are great. Havocs are alot better, although you could try chosen with more heavy weps. I don't have my dex with me *At School* but Im pretty sure you could pack more onto them.

I would usually include a missile launcher with each squad, just in case they get a side or rear shot on a vehicle. It's one of those cases where it's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. Especially if the unit also has a meltagun, in which case you can get close and double your chances.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:You run into "wasting" everyone who has no Heavy when you fire the one. Just double up on your preferred special (and throw flamers on there for 10 points if you don't have any other particular need).

No discussion of oblits vs havocs please, its definately worthy of its own thread

But yeah thats my problem, "wasting" the other 9 blokes. I run a fairly mech/aggressive army, so i found myself running up the field and then running back for a objective, which is why i came up with the idea for the HW in a rhino w/ havoc launcher sitting next to a havoc squad.

They are Chaos Space Marines for a reason.
Not loyalist tactical squads.

Go with the double special weapons and embrace close range dakka.

Shadowbrand wrote:Yeah I'd take a melta/Plasma or even a flamer.

I Run Noise Marines and Vanilla csm.

Assualt weaps are great. Havocs are alot better, although you could try chosen with more heavy weps. I don't have my dex with me *At School* but Im pretty sure you could pack more onto them.

Chosen get the choice of 1 heavy weapon, at the same cost as havocs- CSM heavy weaps are cheaper. And agreed, assault weapons are the goods.

warpcrafter wrote:I would usually include a missile launcher with each squad, just in case they get a side or rear shot on a vehicle. It's one of those cases where it's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. Especially if the unit also has a meltagun, in which case you can get close and double your chances.

yeaaaah thats kind of a interesting idea. I might give that a whirl against some of my friends more mech'd lists. But maybe a plasma? just so if i'm at 13-24" i can missile and plas/bolter something?

Sanctjud wrote:They are Chaos Space Marines for a reason.
Not loyalist tactical squads.

Go with the double special weapons and embrace close range dakka.

But i want to sit back and shoooooooot

jokes aside Sanctjud you post alot of good chaos advice... you never feel drawn to the cheap heavy weaps?

CSM work best within 12". Heavy weapons limit our ability to execute.

I think you would possibly see them if you could do it with a squad of 5 sitting on an objective, but you need a full 10 man squad. Not worth it. Even as an 90 point unit or whatever, Im not sure it would fit into a list.

Havocs are great though. Much more cost efficient if you equip them properly.

Eh I prefer oblits because they always equipped well and I can deepstrike them. The stuff from the new codex I use most is sorcerer, oblits, dreads, defilers, plague marine and noise marines. I'm not a huge fan of heavy weapon toting vanilla csm. They're just too soft on the return volley. Thpugh I also think the oblits are a bit soft too considering they're almost cyborgs.

hmmm. Not alot of love for the heavyweapons. It makes sense...

as i said before, the only good reason i can come up with for CSM with heavy weap. is to sit back on a objective and hold it. Running forwards and then backwards for the objective feels kinda silly at times. Good discussion though.

@Jihallah

jokes aside Sanctjud you post alot of good chaos advice... you never feel drawn to the cheap heavy weaps?

I get my long range kicks from Oblits.
If I want cheap hvy weapons on 'better' platforms I'd go for Space Wolf Long Fangs or Loyalist Attack Bikes.

From my point of view, those CSM hvy weapons are not cheap.
They are their cost + the cost of an extra 5 members compared to the past.
Hell, in an extreme view that single hvy weapon is effectively the cost for the whole squad.

If I play chaos, I'll have my obilts rain plasma, my plague marines upclose and my Daemon Princes running naked......trying to hump anything they can get their hands on........ :-D

Jihallah wrote:hmmm. Not alot of love for the heavyweapons. It makes sense...

as i said before, the only good reason i can come up with for CSM with heavy weap. is to sit back on a objective and hold it. Running forwards and then backwards for the objective feels kinda silly at times. Good discussion though.

Hey if there wasn't so many fast armies(nob bikers, eldar jet bikes, etc) or str 8 large blast templates then sure they could be great They could also be decent in low point games when the other stuff is just too darn much.

As to running back and forth... you put the objective there, you can choose not to.

In addition you can have stuff contesting yours and full out to take the opponent's.

If that is not an option, you can send stuff to contest theirs and do stand off shooting with a pair of plasma guns....24" is great distance, enough to plink at units waiting for those near-end grabs.

Sanctjud wrote:From my point of view, those CSM hvy weapons are not cheap.
They are their cost + the cost of an extra 5 members compared to the past.
Hell, in an extreme view that single hvy weapon is effectively the cost for the whole squad.

Hah yeah i really wasn't thinking of that. that extra cost to get the HW is the nail in the coffin for this idea. Thankfully i just finished shift, but i look forward to more discussion

I agree with most views on this page (which is amazingly civil for a CSM discussion!). However, I would add that HW may be great for CSMs in the right circs.

For example, if I Knew I was to be playing against nids, I know that the alien tide will be on my doorstep in turn two (at least) meaning I wont have to move. This gives me more rounds of las/autocannons etc to shoot at the monsterous creatures as they arrive.

But otherwise, yes, its special weapons for VaNilla CSMs.

Jeez, AC for 10 points.

Honestly, I think a tailored Chaos list can dominate orks/nids everytime. You can get so much firepower while keeping its already above average close combat skills intact.

I think a heavy weapon isn't terrible for a more classic use of CSM. Take one of the 10 point heavy weapons, grab a Plasmagun and sit on an objective. Anything within 24" feels your wrath. On top of that, the Heavy Weapons themselves are really cheap to offset the fact that you won't always be using them. The Heavy Weapon is an extra option; you can stand and fire if you have to, but if using your CSM for close fire support is more important atleast your wasted investment was tiny.

Ahh, but you see, its not just that youre not using the heavy weapon/plasma, it's also the fact that you could have had 2 melta guns which you can shoot, get a guaranteed kill or 2, and then charge into combat.

Its an interesting idea, but the problem is Chaos is safest in CC against most armies, and you cant really make a list tailored to beat orks or nids unless youre just playing friends.

If you want heavy weapons, you might as well play Space Marines.

Night Lords wrote:Ahh, but you see, its not just that youre not using the heavy weapon/plasma, it's also the fact that you could have had 2 melta guns which you can shoot, get a guaranteed kill or 2, and then charge into combat.

Its an interesting idea, but the problem is Chaos is safest in CC against most armies, and you cant really make a list tailored to beat orks or nids unless youre just playing friends.

If you want heavy weapons, you might as well play Space Marines.

Unless you are playing a gun-line CSM. Then you are going to be sitting still, simply as a play-style. You don't want lots of close combats cluttering up the field, as you can't bring your weapons to bear on them. We get to one-up the Loyalists with things like Rhinos-that-are-Whirldwinds. Razorbacks you say? Our Rhino/winds can still move the whole squad (and are cheaper)! Plus, we don't have to invest in counter-assault units, as all our infantry fight atleast aswell as their's (the Loyalists).

Is gun-line better than mech? That is a discussion for another thread (maybe I'll open that up this weekend).

Interesting - I dont tend to play gunline csm, im much more agressive in style (If I dont move during the movement phase, I feel ive wasted the turn!). I lookforward to the responses to your thread DH!

DarkHound wrote: Snip

Im still under the belief that sitting back as chaos is a waste and youll only get outshot by loyalists, but the counter-assault unit point is interesting. Id like to hear more points though in order to be convinced.

There, my thread is up. Go and read about the application of CSM with Heavy Weapon squads.

DarkHound wrote:There, my thread is up. Go and read about the application of CSM with Heavy Weapon squads.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/259910.page
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Link to the thread. I think the core idea of this thread is being discussed in Darkhounds thread so read that for a interesting idea or if you want to contribute