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Well, I can probably guess that people have come to check out this thread expecting some lunatic to flame people randomly and start picking fights or throwing insults...

Actually, not my goal in the slightest. I'm here to rant... like any idiot late at night with a keyboard and a beer, I feel I've got to let my emotions out. What can I say, I just care too much.

Anyway, enough of the intro fluff... What gets me is some people's sole drive to play table top games to win. Don't get me wrong, as my rugby coach always says, a beer always tastes better after a win I find that most people seem to lose the point of why we all play these wonderful games.

So think about it. What was the point you really got into all this in the first place... to have fun with your buddies or to even go out and make some more friends while stuffing your face with food that should rot your teeth out and drowning yourself in your beverage of choice. Unfortunately I find that so many people have warped and twisted this original desire for game play to be the ultimate jerk (not swearing, not sure what I can get away with on this board yet) and just make the cheesiest armies they can or to argue the most minor of rules or issues.

While being probably one of the most minor issues that can stem from this mentality, I find that too many people are getting into the game with the "what army is the best/how can I win the most" mentality and totally disregard all the fluff for every race out there. Personally, when I started down this path of geekdom 2 years ago, I bought my first army of Tyranids solely based on the fact that I thought they looked cool and I absolutely loved the fluff/stories behind them. Don't get me wrong... I've lost more than my fair share of games playing my army but I've never had a day where I went home and wasn't smiling from a fun day.

So... The night is late... I could ramble and annoy you all for hours (trust me) but I felt this is just a minor point to a larger problem I seen being more and more common recently... Please people... have fun... do dumb things... make funny sounds and laugh. That's the whole reason why we've picked this game up. Try different armies, mix everything up... lose a LOT! win some... but always, ALWAYS have a blast doing what we all love to do.

Andrew "Shampoo" Craig

PS, I have a huge hate on for "created" Space Marine chapters... so much more effective than my Dark Angels... but dammit, my Dark Angels have a cool back story!!

There... let your flaming commence.

You must remember, people do actually go into hobbies just to win, to be the ultimate winner i suppose by making the best lists etc. This happens IRL too (unfortunately)

Which is completely unfortunate... most of us are in school or work for a living and deal with the stresses and BS from those aspects of our lives... I would think that an outlet would be welcomed just to forget the stupidity of life.

I could not agree with you more MuffinButt. I got into this as a hobby before it grew into a game. I've always been one to want to play in campaigns and narrative games; never one for tourny play or "gota kill'em all" pickup's.

I used to play with a decent bunch of like minded gentlemen and mature players who followed the same path but I moved to power-gaming central and have pretty much hung up my dice and just stuck with my brush. Ard Boyz did NOT help.

PS. I love create(DIY) chapters, I love to see what people can come up with and the different colors. I can't speak on the rules.

MuffinButt358 wrote:Well, I can probably guess that people have come to check out this thread expecting some lunatic to flame people randomly and start picking fights or throwing insults...

Actually, not my goal in the slightest. I'm here to rant... like any idiot late at night with a keyboard and a beer, I feel I've got to let my emotions out. What can I say, I just care too much.

Anyway, enough of the intro fluff... What gets me is some people's sole drive to play table top games to win. Don't get me wrong, as my rugby coach always says, a beer always tastes better after a win I find that most people seem to lose the point of why we all play these wonderful games.

So think about it. What was the point you really got into all this in the first place... to have fun with your buddies or to even go out and make some more friends while stuffing your face with food that should rot your teeth out and drowning yourself in your beverage of choice. Unfortunately I find that so many people have warped and twisted this original desire for game play to be the ultimate jerk (not swearing, not sure what I can get away with on this board yet) and just make the cheesiest armies they can or to argue the most minor of rules or issues.

While being probably one of the most minor issues that can stem from this mentality, I find that too many people are getting into the game with the "what army is the best/how can I win the most" mentality and totally disregard all the fluff for every race out there. Personally, when I started down this path of geekdom 2 years ago, I bought my first army of Tyranids solely based on the fact that I thought they looked cool and I absolutely loved the fluff/stories behind them. Don't get me wrong... I've lost more than my fair share of games playing my army but I've never had a day where I went home and wasn't smiling from a fun day.

So... The night is late... I could ramble and annoy you all for hours (trust me) but I felt this is just a minor point to a larger problem I seen being more and more common recently... Please people... have fun... do dumb things... make funny sounds and laugh. That's the whole reason why we've picked this game up. Try different armies, mix everything up... lose a LOT! win some... but always, ALWAYS have a blast doing what we all love to do.

Andrew "Shampoo" Craig

PS, I have a huge hate on for "created" Space Marine chapters... so much more effective than my Dark Angels... but dammit, my Dark Angels have a cool back story!!

There... let your flaming commence.

This mentality is actually easy to explain . Ppl in life would like to succeed , they dont like to be known as failures , even if they are , they still dont like admitting it.
If playing wargames ( this can apply to any activities really ) and beating people make them feel "accomplished , or a winner " they'll do anything they can to win like that.

They are vain , they are petty , and in denial .

I'm actually pretty shocked by these replies so far.

Can you not accept that not everybody plays this game for the background or models?
Some people play 40k as a game, as a tactical wargame, one that the goal of is to win.

I'm quite disappointed with you all, particularly lunahound, those are very harsh words for people that simply do not share the same point of view as you.

As for myself? I'm in 40k for the fluff and the models. If those weren't as they are I would not play, just to preempt people flaming me for being an evil WAAC powergamer.

LunaHound wrote:If playing wargames ( this can apply to any activities really ) and beating people make them feel "accomplished , or a winner " they'll do anything they can to win like that.

They are vain , they are petty , and in denial .

Way to generalise there.

Something I have found after so many years in this hobby is that there are a surprising number of people who have trouble with the idea that different people enjoy different aspects of the 'Games Workshop hobby'...

For some, 40K is an excuse to push toy soldiers around the board, the rules are just a general suggestion as to the best way to do that, and the whole thing is not taken too seriously.

For others, it's a wargame. A game of strategy, and pitting your wits against someone else. The whole point of that sort of game, for that person, is winning. Not because it necessarily makes them feel big about themselves, but for the challenge of overcoming whatever this other person can throw at you.

For some, the game is completely secondary, and far less important than sitting at a table slapping paint or putty around. And for others, they're just toy soldiers... something to collect, put in a box, and never get around to actually doing anything with. But there for the joy of having them.


Don't make the mistake of thinking that everyone has to enjoy the hobby the same way you do. That way lies madness.

I love the eldar background. I love the way they are desperately fighting to survive and maybe find some hope their race will not become extinct. I have loved the models since I saw them and still usually pull out the original aspect warriors to use in games. I love sitting until 4am painting and modelling, rummaging through bits to find that just right bit to finish convertinga rank and file chaos warrior, or marine or whatever.

But I also love sitting looking at the army lists and cobbling bits and peices together trying to see how it would play. I've lost a fair amount, I have won a fair amount. I wont touch my DA because frankly they're unplayable, so much so my wifes aunt got pretty much a companys worth of marines unpainted and all my transports and all but 1 dread to take back to Canada for her grandson who had started playing.

Simply put I enjoy the challenge aspect as well, trying to get something together that works. Unbeatable, no, no list ever is. Even losing though I never had a problem with it excet one game where the other guys "rule expert" was pulling fast ones left right and centre.

People just enjoy different things if they want to go all out I want to win, sure let them enjoy that. The line I draw is when people become untolerable and begin arguing every single point to get them an advantage, or are in it to make themselves feel good and their opponent gets it rubbed in their face. There is a difference in my friend always reminding me of his 2nd ed scatter lasers always ripping my terminators to shreds and someone being obnoxious after all.

The problem is too often it's just human nature. Playing WoW for so long I saw the same mentality and elitism creep into people and I'm sure most of the kids on there are there to try to make themselves feel important and all powerful due to whatever complex they have.

It's part of life and all you can do is just not play with those you find to be so untolerable.

"My way to play is the only way to play. Discuss."

Sure, I don't think you should be a fething donkey-cave when you play, but if building a strong list is enough to make you an donkey-cave then...well, I dunno, your problem I guess. Wanting to win doesn't make you a WAAC powergamer like some would have you believe.

ph34r wrote:I'm actually pretty shocked by these replies so far.

Can you not accept that not everybody plays this game for the background or models?
Some people play 40k as a game, as a tactical wargame, one that the goal of is to win.

I'm quite disappointed with you all, particularly lunahound, those are very harsh words for people that simply do not share the same point of view as you.

As for myself? I'm in 40k for the fluff and the models. If those weren't as they are I would not play, just to preempt people flaming me for being an evil WAAC powergamer.

I'll put a spin on it for you. Recently, we got a spanky new Gamesclub in my town. It's great. Lots of tables, lots of opponents. However, the past few weeks have been spent entirely with the Tourny Crowd 'practicing'. Every game they play, is practice for their comped Tournaments. They then expect me to list my army to meet the comp rules, and promptly smash my face in with relatively contemptuous ease. Why? Because I prefer heavily themed armies. I'll read the Army Book / Codex, focussing on the background, and eventually find something which tickles my fancy. From there it's to the list section to draw up an army which I feel reflects what I like. Although I do enjoy winning my games, the overall effectiveness of my list is not a huge concern, as I'm competent enough to give most armies a run for their money. But against one specifically designed to do well in a Tournament, I struggle. So at this point, they are taking away from my enjoyment of the game, as they expect me to play at a level my forces just can't compete in. If it's a friendly pick up game, them's the breaks. Tough titty and suck it up. But when that is all that is on offer at a public club, week in week out, it gets right on your tits.

I raised this on our own forum, and was told 'sry, ply2win!'. A pretty assinine reply. Of course I play to win, only an arse approaches any game without that desire. But they also introduce tournament rulings (like woods being 'infinitely high', a ruling which neatly buggers my usual tactics with a couple of armies, by changing a rule in the Book (True LoS is in 7th Ed Fantasy).

So each to their own of course. I don't criticise the guys desire to play at that level, but when they demand I meet them on that level, we both lose. I have no interest in that level of competition, and because of that, if it's practice for their list, they are wasting their time against my list, as it simply won't test them or their list. Sure, they'll get a different game (mt armies tend to be rather esoteric in their composition) but it's simply not one they'd encounter in a competitive tournament environment.

Yeah, I'd hate being used for "practice", too. If that were the case I just wouldn't game with them. That and I think comp is bs, lol..."play to win" indeed, must be difficult to do with pointless, nonsensical handicaps.

Trouble is, one mans idea of balanced comp is another mans idea of beardyheaven.

Best just to accept the existing level of balance within the game is the best it's going to get, and just deal with it.

Ok, we've been down this road a million times. Here's the points we all know

- Everyone plays 'to win' but some people don't mind losing if it's a fun game.
- Everyone gets something different from the game, some people ONLY play the game, and that's fair enough. Take what you want from the hobby.
- Problems arise when people act like arses about it, do ANYTHING in order to win, including ruining the other players fun.
- Generally, you should play the game with people who want the same thing as you, otherwise all sorts of arguments and whiney posts occur!

furthermore

- Generally, despite how 'vocal' certain posters can be, polls on Dakka have shown that there are a LOT more 'fluff' players than 'competitive' players. Although it may sometimes seem that way, it's not be true that everyone on here just wants to play to win...!

MuffinButt358 wrote:While being probably one of the most minor issues that can stem from this mentality, I find that too many people are getting into the game with the "what army is the best/how can I win the most" mentality and totally disregard all the fluff for every race out there. Personally, when I started down this path of geekdom 2 years ago, I bought my first army of Tyranids solely based on the fact that I thought they looked cool and I absolutely loved the fluff/stories behind them. Don't get me wrong... I've lost more than my fair share of games playing my army but I've never had a day where I went home and wasn't smiling from a fun day.

I think this is the most important point here, though. We really should encourage new players to get into the whole 'hobby' - and one of the good things about the game is that, in order to play it well, you have to CO-OPERATE with your enemy. The rules aren't watertight - it takes both players active involvement with each other to make a game fun.

Lots of kids seem to get the impression that the ONLY thing is to beat their friends, or be the 'best' at the game. Looking at the YMDC forum, and some other posts, I can see where they get that impression. We should do more to encourage the 'hobby' or at least to let new players know that there are lots of ways to enjoy it...!

I heard that the DCGM is watching this thread right now...

The Donkey Carrying Gin Merchants?

FLEE! RUN TO THE HILLS!

My fantasy army is orcs and gobbos.......My 40k army Sisters of Battle, and I take acro flags and Sisters Repentia cuz i think they are cool.

My trick I play guys my own age that have been in the hobby for a while.

I then built a forum specifically for us and now we have a group of about 30 guys that dont beardy up, except for when they were practicing for ard boys, and then we specifically made a point of letting our opponent know we were going to max/min.

I play to win.... otherwise why play? Why keep score? I will not place so much emphasis on winning that is makes me an donkey-cave but I want to win the games I play. I hate making mistakes that cost me a game. If dice go south, so be it. That is part of playing the game and I've had my butt handed to me by much better players too and had a great time as well. I've lost close games that have been infinite amounts of fun.

I truly want to have a good time with my opponent. If they are not enjoying the experience it isn't worth playing. I hope that they are playing to win and take full advantage of their armies strengths to counter the weaknesses I bring to the table and maximize their chance of capturing the objectives of the scenario.

I like tournaments and structed/themed games. I enjoy games that have a "game master" too. I would say 66% of my games are casual, but everyone I play in th LGS wants to win. WAAC is a no no. That would imply purposely reading rules to get the "most" from a list or measuring the extra inch necessary to engage a unit. If you need to do that stuff to win you've got a small pee pee and need help.

I just find it amusing that people tend to think that having fun and playing to win are exclusive propositions.

I don't think "list optimization" is the only way of showing that you want to win or the only way to win. List optimization may create better dice odds but the list still has to play to the table and the environment presented.

A themed or "casual" list player can still bring an attitude and desire to win. What I don't like is the excuse of "it is OK to lose since I brought a themed army". That ommission is stating that the only way to win is list optimization and that you don't place enough personal responsibility on the W or L on the table..

Not everyone plays to win. I sure don't-- quite frankly, I have neither the time, the desire, nor the money required to play 40k in a truly competitive fashion. I play to have fun and to tell a cool story. Do I try to give a good fight? Sure, but I don't take the best combinations, don't use units or tactics that I consider to be cheap or unfair, and don't really care whether I win or lose. I would much rather lose a hard-fought battle than win in a total blowout. That may make me a scrub, but I'm down with that. I have no pretenses of being a competitive 40k player, and if I wanted to play a miniatures game competitively, I'd pick one with a tighter ruleset.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I heard that the DCGM is watching this thread right now...

I think we need some kind of badge or banner to put in our sigs.

I thought about writing a reasoned response to this, but screw it:

Gamers that don't play to win are just as morally inferior as gamers that don't paint their armies.

Discuss.

It's a pretty common rant. Honestly, I enjoy winning, but it's sure not the whole reason I play the game. I can see my mentality being different in a tournament setting, where there's some sort of grand prize, but there's little reason to be ruthless with a win-at-all-costs attitude with your buddies. Unless, of course, they play with the same mindset. Some people are just like that.

I got into this hobby as a temporary replacement for playing competitive Yu-Gi-Oh! until the format got better. I came to find the competitive side likes to pretend it's there, but this game sucks as anything other than "have fun, tell a story" which frustrates me to no end. If I can give other companies a hell of a lot less money and they can deliver fun casual and competitive experiences, why can't GW? I get that I know what it is now,but in building my army I was told by salespeople that it's great to go to tournaments, etc. Stupid lies.

@Camerus: You don't find 40k/WHFB competitive? I think the scene nowadays is pretty fierce. Certainly, its less degenerate than modern Yu-Gi-Oh. What's your issue?

Tangent here, but I've never gotten the phrase "just a game". Shouldn't it be "It's a game". Games are what we do voluntarily, the manner in which we spend time that is entirely ours. Nothing's nobler than a game.

If I'm a jerk, and I ruin your gaming experience, I'm wasting your recreational time, which is the time you spend working to pay for. It's the time you spend sleeping to be rested for. Ultimately, in your life, the part that defines you is the choice you make when you are free to choose, in other words what games you play.

Tangent end, returning to topic.

Yeah, I play to win. This is a game, same as chess or go. Tell me if you want to lose before we play, so I can not play you. If we both want me to win it's not interesting.

That said, there's a confusion that often arises from outside of the competitive crowd. Casual players think that what we want is to win. That's not it at all. We play to win, we want to play. The real winner of a tournament is the guy who had difficult, fun games in every round, bonus points if they were with folks he hasn't played before.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I heard that the DCGM is watching this thread right now...

Dakka Casual Gaming Majority?

It's like the Moral Majority but...oh, wait, no, that's a terrible analogy....

ArbitorIan wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:I heard that the DCGM is watching this thread right now...

Dakka Casual Gaming Majority?

You're right except for the word "Majority". It's more like we're organized, do things that may lay outside the social mores of others, and possibly Italian. Kind of like we're a family.

I hate it when people bring repetitive, stale lists you always see to the table. oh, you brought vulkan + melta/flamer spam? good for you! lame. unless your playing in a tournament, you need to mix it up... don't just repeat your troop choices... take choices with some character. don't just say "pfft, space marine captains suck, only a newb takes one!"... take one because it fits in with the fluff of your army, its not like its a BAD choice...

I hate people who take 2 special characters to a game (eldrad+ maugan ra, anyone?) and then win the game with ease. Special characters aren't required for a good game, and they are overused... so just don't use them! There's a difference between playing to win, and tailoring an army list to beat the ever loving crap out of everyone. I play with no characters, and some somewhat off beat choices in my SM army... (got a 35/40 comp in a recent tournament)... yet I still do well with it. its more about how you play, than what you play. Just copying a fancy army list you saw on the internet will earn you nothing from me but scorn.

Polonius wrote:I thought about writing a reasoned response to this, but screw it:

Gamers that don't play to win are just as morally inferior as gamers that don't paint their armies.

Discuss.

I know there are gamers who hate to paint, but do you really believe that there are gamers who hate to win?

Okay, dumb question time... what does DCGM mean? Yeah, I'm new here... It makes me cry myself to sleep at night.

Well, I'm quite happy with how this threat is turning out. Mission accomplished. No one is being a donkey-cave and flaming anyone and it's quite a rational discussion.

I would like to say that anyone/everyone has an intention to win a game when played but HOW you play the game is more important than WHY you're playing the game. No one goes into a gaming situation with the intention to lose but making the entire experience enjoyable for both sides of the table is the key, I would say. Trust me, if you ever saw me try to shoot anything with my Venom Cannon 'fex and miss horribly (it happens quite often) which then causes me to mock myself and stomp around the room imitating my fex, you'd get it. I'm just an idiot at heart.

Also, we all don't spend HUNDREDS of dollors (or more) to lose OR to not have fun doing it all.

BTW, Polonias, you make me laugh bud... always good for a chuckle.

Zip Napalm wrote:

Polonius wrote:I thought about writing a reasoned response to this, but screw it:

Gamers that don't play to win are just as morally inferior as gamers that don't paint their armies.

Discuss.

I know there are gamers who hate to paint, but do you really believe that there are gamers who hate to win?

No, but after hearing endless posts about how it's matter of respect and tradition to paint models before playing, I've decided that I'm going to stop coddling people that can't play well. Building effective lists and playing to win is just as much a part of wargaming as painting the models, if not more so. Now, like people that can't paint well but try, I have no problem with people that play hard but are just not very good. But I feel that players should do their best to win, and if they're not doing so, they're showing disrespect to their opponent and sullying the traditions of the game.

DCGM = Dakka Casual Gaming Mafia