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All right, so the deal is pretty straight-forward, as it is in the subject, Im looking to use Space Marines against my friends Imperial Guard army in the Cities of Death setting.
I have most of the units in the army, except Razorbacks, regular Land Raiders, Vanguard Vets., only 1 drop pod, no Techmarines, No Land Raider Redeemers. Pretty much everything else I have. I was thinking of starting with the stuff in Assault on Black Reach, and go from there. I did convert my Captain to have a Combi-Plasmagun though, so the points will vary on him. I also have a Thunderfire Cannon Id love to try, and the shells that ignore cover seem like they'd be pretty awesome.

Id love to hear from some of you people who totally jumped into the new Codex Space Marines and hear what you think!

Thanks in advance!
T-

Well I'll tell you the obvious: your marines are going to massacre guardsman on the charge into CC. Try to get them to commit to assaults.

Of course, that is assuming your guard opponent is out of his transports. You have a lot of good options for blowing those up, like dreadnoughts with multi-meltas, missile launchers, and you should have meltaguns. Some bare dakka-predators can chew through them as well at minimum cost to you.

Pop those hard shells, eat the chewy center up in assault, rinse and repeat.

Thanks for the reply! I agree, and totally forgot to post what Ill more than likely be facing!

My buddy fielded something like this:
Command Platoon: Officer w/Power Fist, Medic, Plasmagun, Master of Ordnance.
No Elites
Veteran Squad: x3 or 4 Plasmaguns and a Lascannon.(these guys were a pain)
Infantry Platoon:x5 with x2 Plasmaguns and a Heavy Bolter armed Chimera.
Infantry Squad: x10with plasmagun/lascannon, Heavy Bolter armed Chimera.
Infantry Squad:x10 with plasmagun/lascannon, Heavy Bolter armed Chimera.
No Fast Attack
Demolisher: x2 Plasma Cannon Sponsons, Lascannon Hull.

Thanks!
T-

It sounds like the biggest problems for you will be that Demolisher. Definitely get some melta-spam on it, or assault them with powerfists/meltabombs. A terminator squad might do the trick, or use combat squads with meltaguns to go tank-hunting through the ruins. Also, bike squads with meltaguns are a good way of covering open ground fast to swing in around behind tanks where the armor is weakest.

For the rest, it is as I said earlier: get them in assault and you should be fine. Consider taking a few regular Assault squads.

Are you playing competitively? Presumably not if we're talking Cities of Death games.

If not uber-competitive, you're not as likely to see mechvets every game. Which potentially means more infantry targets. Cities of Death, everything will have a cover save... perhaps Whirlwinds, of all things? Incendiary munitions are bad news for large clumps of Guarsmen.

That is true, everything will have cover saves. Thus why assaults will be better for you as a SM player. Almost all SMs have frag grenades, so assaulting into cover is not a problem for you.

It sounds like he has his list tailored for some anti-SM work. Try to take out the small and hard HQ unit first, as it has a lot of plasma weaponry in it and not as many ablative bodies to take the hits. That should reduce the amount of plasma your men are taking. Then move on to the next biggest threat, which will probably be the tank, and then try to pop those pesky chimeras.

The whirlwind sounds like a great idea, I actually have one of the old ones, and have considered repainting it at some point. The Guard HQ isnt as big an issue in the plasma department as the Vet Squad, but shutting down the main Order giving unit, plus that Master of Ordnance has had decent luck in the past against my Chaos Marines. Surprisingly, his army list did really well against my Tau army, and proved that the plasmaguns do great against EVERYTHING, lol, not just MEQs.

If anyone has some ideas for 1000pt list, feel free to post. That's the limit we're playing to right now.
Thanks!
T-

Cities of Death is funny for Guard.

You dont want to do it in the first place because it feths up your shooting lanes. And urban combat historically means bayonettes to the guts. Guard are up for that in valor... but not in capability.

Everyone knows how cover works. Only a mook isnt going to go into a Cities of Death game without every flamer/heavy flamer they can manage. Those weapons = death for Guard.

Urban fights are cool certainly. But why deliberately allow yourself to play in a game where your opponent gets free LOS blocking, cover saves on every shot (nevermind, I'm describing 5th edition in general), in situations where elite troops work best?

Not to mention that as a Guard player, the book was written both a game edition ago and a codex edition ago?

Cities of Death... cool thematically... I'd totally play it for fun... but I really dont want to hear my opponent bragging afterward. Why bother?

Actually, Ivan, I've had many successful games of CoD as a guard player. It requires a little more fore-thought and strategy on the guard player's part, but you can be just as successful if you play your game right.

The guard codex also has a lot of mutability. Taking Straken, for example, can turn those 50+ guardsman blobs with commissars into fairly decent combatants. Taking Marbo in this situation is a given, as it will give him lots of room to play. Ratlings also come into their own, being able to infiltrate into tall towers, benefitting from super-stealth, and being fairly cheap. The close confines make those tanks like Demolishers, punishers, hellhounds, banewolfs etc. look all the more appealing because they can get close enough to work their magic.

I would say that COD changes the metagame for the guard, but doesn't undercut their chances of winning.

Cities of Death is a good way to play for a number of reasons:

It gets you out of thinking in the standard-mission-format, which will make you better able to adapt to different scenarios like 'ard Boyz tournies frequently use.

It can be played on a smaller table- a 4'x4' table takes up less room and is better for players in apartments and smaller living spaces.

It is thematically cool as you said, and can give you a good excuse to use urban themes and equipment when you model your army. There are modeling opportunities abound in CoD.




Ok I think I rambled on long enough about that. Sorry for the theadjack, now back to your regularly scheduled programming...

As far as list building goes, have you ever considered Drop Pod assault? The Drop Pods can't scatter into terrain, allowing you to deploy where you want to. Assault Marines can give up their Jump Packs for a free transport, and Sternguard are really spectacular with Combi-flamers, Dragonfire Bolts and surprising close combat ability. With some Sniper Scouts and the Master Sniper Stratagem, you can build an effective auxillary scoring base. So, maybe 4 Drop Pods carrying two Tac Squads, a Sternguard squad and Assault Marine squad with a couple Scout Squads and maybe a Whirlwind if you have points left over.

I like that idea, DarkHound, but an assault squad in a drop pod though? I'd rather leave them with the packs for the extra maneuverability after they DS, despite the risk of scattering onto some terrain. Sternguard is a good idea, giving you some bolters that can negate cover and some access to combi-flamers.

For the tac squads in those pods, definitely need meltas. You'll need them to pop the chimeras and maybe even that demolisher if you get the drop right.

Vindicators are your friend during a city of death fight. There short range is negated by the fact that you don't often get more than 24 inches of range in this kind of battle. There front armour is going to survive a lot of shots and it's hard to get around to the rear and side armour.

If the board has any open spaces large enough drop podding either an Iron Clad or a Multi-Melta Dread to attack those Demolishers might be a good idea as well.

Vindicators, they were invented for close quarter city fighting after all

So, with that in mind, and not having the codex in front of me, what about this as a start:

Captain: relic blade, combi-plasma(negotiable), maybe meltabombs.
Dreadnought w/Multimelta
Terminators x5 (maybe add the cyclone launcher)
Tactical Squad with Missle Launcher, Flamer, (maybe split this unit into two 5 man teams to utilize the 48"missle launcher and the template flamer?)
Points might not allow anymore Tactical Squads, unless I forgo the Fast Attack
Sniper Scout squad x....maybe 8 or 10(?)
Vindicator
Whirlwind (?)

The question marks denote that Im not sure if Ill be able to put them into the 1000pt list. I have more Dreads that I can add, but no more with Multimeltas (twinlascannon/powerfist and Assault Cannon/Powerfist). Im not really sure what to do for Fast Attack, I heard there are better choices than Assault Squads, any recommendations?

Thanks everyone!
T-

I wouldn't run anything less than 2 full tactical squads.
That way, if the mission calls for more scoring units, you can spit those two into 4. I don't think that 2 + 1 scout squad is going to be enough scoring units, especially if you get a mission like firesweep or something.

Make sure to take dozer blades on your vehicles. Theyre dirt cheap and invaluable in urban fights with all that rough terrain.

So lets say I went with the stuff right out of the Black Reach box set, with a few mods....

Captain: Power Sword, Combi-Plasma, Frags.
Terminators: x5 w/ Storm Bolters/Powerfists, Sgt w/Storm Bolter/Power Sword, x1 w/Cyclone Launcher.
Dreadnought: Multimelta, Storm Bolter
Tactical Squad: x10 w/ Missle Launcher, Flamer, Sgt.

What would you guys recommend? I was thinking a Whirlwind would be pretty sweet, I also have an unassembled Thunderfire Cannon, but the Whirlwind might actually be cheaper, lol. er....what else??

Thanks!
T-

Another squad of tacticals, at the least.

Maybe a squad of Assault marines for maneuverability and to capitalize on your main advantage over guard. If not assault marines, then maybe assault termies.

Whirlwind is a luxury, not an essential item. If you have the points for it, sure.

But for certain, you need another full tactical squad.

Ignoring all previous posts here's a list I'd run for CoD slightly tailored to what your enemy is about tu bring up.

Captain: Combiplasma, Powerweapon
Sternguard (5) 2 Kombimeltas, Drop Pod
Cybot: HF, MM, Drop Pod
Tac squad: Melta, ML, Drop Pod
Tac squad: Melta, ML, Drop Pod
Scouts (5) 4 Snipers, 1 ML, Camocloaks
Landspeeder: HF

Thouhgts: The Captain is the model you got, right? Should go with a combat squad
Sternguard: Don't need no flamer thanks to cover-ignoring amo, therefore more tankbusting ability with meltafun
Cybot: Versatile for 2nd turn drop
Tacs: Hard decission whether to take flamer or melta imo. I prefer melta for more antitank (your enemy's got 4 vehicles) since when in range to use a flamer you could as well charge. Combat squadding seems mandatory.
Scouts: Sit on objectives and pin troublemakers till they're taken care of by other units
LS: Jumps around to burn what hides from the rest (like the shooty vets)

Of course this list isn't that tuned but i guess it'd do just fine against guard where charging is a viable option for tac marines...

Perhaps consider dropping the Vindi? They are sound in theory, but they don't really cause much harm, due to the abundance of cover saves, and you are really only paying 125pts for some area denial. Also, steer clear of thunderfire cannons. No matter how much devastation they can cause, they are 100pts of 10/10/10 with no maneouverability. Not a good choice. Consider attack bikes/landspeeders with multimeltas for fast anti-russ support, but as long as you pack masses of meltaguns in some form, you will be fine. Best of luck!

Apologies if I missed it, but why give your Captain a Combi-Plasma? If it's a constraint of the model, that's fine - though I would recommend using a Relic Blade instead of a standard Power Sword; you're not going to be gaining +1 attack from two weapons, so you might as well go for +2 strength for the opportunity to instant-death any Guard characters!

Also, are you going to be using Strategems? If so, perhaps you'd want to consider 'Sewer Rats' for a Tank Hunting squad, or Plunging Fire to help your Bolters against the numerous Guard saves?

Well, originally I had rigged up the AoBR Captain to hold a Plasma/Bolter where the original Bolter was, but Im actually using a modified Cypher figure to represent my Captain, he's got a Power Sword/Relic Blade and the other arm is point, so Im pretty free to use whatever firearm I want, did you have any recommendations?

Thanks!
T-


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, here's the list I put together, but there's one thing Im not sure about and that's Heavy Support, but here goes!

Captain: Power Weapon, Combi-Plasma (up for ideas here)

Assault Terminators: x5 w/Thunder Hammers/Storm Shields (this is what Ive got, and I really want to use them).
Dreadnought:Multimelta, in Drop Pod.

Tactical Squad: x10, Flamer, Missle Launcher, Meltabombs on Vet.Sgt.
Tactical Squad: x10, Meltagun, Plasma Cannon, Power Weapon on Vet. Sgt.
Scout Squad: x5, w/ Sniper Rifles.

Thunderfire Cannon.

I know that there are probably much better options, but I won one of the Thunderfires at a Tournament and have never used it. I was looking at the option of negating the cover saves of the Guardsmen, and 60" range isnt too bad I think. I know a Whirlwind might be a better choice, and 15 points cheaper, but it just seems too obvious of a choice. Of course, I want to win, but I dont need to put together an RTT Tourney list or anything, it is just friendly play.

What do you guys think? Im open to suggestions.

Thanks!
T-

Thunderfires have the potential to inflict extreme pain, but only if you can keep them safe.

Thunderfire Cannons are awesome! Sorry, but that needed to be said. For 100 points, you get the ability to deny cover saves or create difficult terrain at will. S5, AP6, Heavy 4, No Cover is designed for killing infantry in dense terrain and with the 60" range and the Techmarine's ability to bolster ruins for a 3+ (or potentially 2+ in city fight) cover save, opponents have a very difficult time taking it out of play---especially if there are other threats in your army they need to worry about. A thunderfire cannon placed well should be out of range of most return fire and still be able to control key avenues/objectives in a city fight.

Get bikers I find them great in citys of death.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Get bikers I find them great in citys of death.

That's great news to hear that the Thunderfire is actually a decent unit to use, I was looking forward to using it, but then saw some people trashing on it so I got hesitant, haha.
@Sternguard_rock, are you thinking like 3 bikers with 2 meltaguns? or just biker units in general? What would you suggest based on the list Ive got going?

@PanzerLeader, hey, thanks for brining up the improved fortification thing for the Techmarine, I totally forgot! If I get him into a taller building and up the cover save, (and maybe make it a Medicae Facility for some FNP!) that might work out pretty pretty gooood!

Any other suggestions to the list Ive posted?
Thanks!
T-

Any other marine players out there make any recommendations to this list I posted? It'll be fighting in Cities of Death, against the Guard list I posted above.

Thanks!
T-

Be careful using a plasma cannon on infantry models, since they can get blown up by the "Get's Hot!" rule.

Have you considered Vindicators? They might counter his Demolisher tank well enough. If you don't have the models/points for it, then stick with the thunderfire I guess.

Techmarine might not be a bad idea in CoD. Fortifying a ruin would definitely give you an edge if coupled with a decent Stratagem.

Take a look at this post, as it details some good general ideas to keep in mind when playing a CoD mission:
http://foxphoenix40k.blogspot.com/2009/10/lets-talk-tactics-more-cityfighting.html

My general tactic for City of Death, regardless of who I against, is Vindicators, Dreadnought’s with Lascannons and Missile launcher, troops with Flamer, Missile Launcher, Landspeeder's with Melta's (keep them moving), Assault marines with melta bombs for rapid movement.
Techmarine wiith Thunder Cannon - he can always attempt to fix any vehicles if necessary, though beyond the Vindicators and Dreadnought’s, the few Rhino's I use are only used to move troop in to contact or block line of sight.

Generally hung cover, stay out of sight until the objective is in at hand, then hit hard and fast.

Its working so far, but they are adapting

Oh, something you really, really need to consider are what Stratagems you'll be taking. A Heavy Bolter Devastator squad is meh until you give them Plunging Fire and Ammunition Storage, then they are unreasonable killing machines. Units that you might not consider become worth taking with Stratagems. Don't be afraid to use multiple stratagems on a single unit (Master Snipers, and Rappelling Lines for Scout Snipers in Landspeeder Storms).

If you want, you can check out my thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/261407.page