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I have a good friend who has been able to absolutely mop the floor with me for the past 3 weeks because he rolls in with high strength, low AP templates and makes mincemeat of my beloved CSMs before I can get across the table. He usually runs a pair of Basilisks in the corners, 1-2 Valkyries, a Leman Russ, and a few Sentinels. The rest of his force is an IG platoon with bundles of heavy weapons teams, and 3 Chimeras with vet squads carrying flamers in reserve, so he can bust them out later and rush forward to claim/contest objectives.

The fun thing is, he's coming over tomorrow and he bragged to me that he's bringing 14 things with AV12 or better (I suspect it's more armored sentinels with plasma cannons, he's quite fond of them). I beat him the first couple weeks we played, back when we just had infantry put together, but every since he's got his vehicles assembled it's been an absolute massacre every time we play.

Here's the list I plan on fielding tomorrow:
1850 Pts - Chaos Marines Roster

HQ: Chaos Terminator Sorcerer (1#, 150 pts)
1 Chaos Terminator Sorcerer @ 150 pts (Personal Icon; Force Weapon x1; Combi-melta; Warptime)

Troops: Chaos Space Marines (11#, 220 pts)
9 Chaos Space Marines @ 220 pts (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x9; Bolter x8; Close Combat Weapon x9; Lascannon; Rhino)
1 Aspiring Champion (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol; Bolter; Close Combat Weapon)
1 Rhino (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Twin Linked Bolter)

Troops: Chaos Space Marines (11#, 220 pts)
9 Chaos Space Marines @ 220 pts (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x9; Bolter x8; Close Combat Weapon x9; Lascannon; Rhino)
1 Aspiring Champion (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol; Bolter; Close Combat Weapon)
1 Rhino (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Twin Linked Bolter)

Troops: Chaos Space Marines (11#, 210 pts)
9 Chaos Space Marines @ 210 pts (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x9; Bolter x9; Close Combat Weapon x9; Rhino)
1 Aspiring Champion (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon; Combi-melta)
1 Rhino (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Twin Linked Bolter)

Troops: Chaos Space Marines (11#, 215 pts)
9 Chaos Space Marines @ 215 pts (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x9; Bolter x9; Close Combat Weapon x9; Rhino)
1 Aspiring Champion (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Melta Bombs; Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon; Combi-melta)
1 Rhino (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Twin Linked Bolter)

Heavy Support: Obliterators (2#, 150 pts)
2 Obliterators @ 150 pts (Obliterator Weapons; Power Fist; Fearless; Slow and Purposeful)

Heavy Support: Obliterators (2#, 150 pts)
2 Obliterators @ 150 pts (Obliterator Weapons; Power Fist; Fearless; Slow and Purposeful)

Heavy Support: Havocs (11#, 295 pts)
10 Havocs @ 295 pts (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x10; Bolter x6; Close Combat Weapon x10; Lascannon x2; Missile Launcher x2; Rhino)
1 Rhino (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Twin Linked Bolter)

Fast Attack: Raptors (5#, 120 pts)
5 Raptors @ 120 pts (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x5; Close Combat Weapon x5; Meltagun x2)

Fast Attack: Raptors (5#, 120 pts)
5 Raptors @ 120 pts (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x5; Close Combat Weapon x5; Meltagun x2)

The plan is to rush forward with any rhinos left alive (if he gets to go first, otherwise I'll be even better off), hop out of them, weather his template party, and then try to blow as much as I can to smithereens with the LCs and MLs. The oblits will do their usual thing, and I plan to have the raptors jump behind the rhinos to use them as cover, then jump real close to a tank or something and melta them.

The plan sorta sucks, but I don't really know what to do... My guys just get torn to shreds by his templates. Any advice on tactics/list building would be greatly appreciated... Most of the tactica I've seen assumes the IG to spam their crappy troops, not their super cheap and ultra deadly vehicles.

ok... here's a different plan for ya. Hold your entire army in reserve. Deep strike the oblits / raptors.

Hopefully, on turn 2 when (about) half your army comes in, you will get at least 2 units of either oblits or raptors. use those to pop the basilisks. Rush all the rhinos that come in up the center. He now has a choice... turn to deal with the oblits / raptors in his lines, or deal with the rhinos rushing his front. oblits take the same weapons to take down as your rhinos, so it really IS a choice, because oblits are nasty buggers, and need to be dealt with quickly.

Also, I suggest modifying the weapons loadout of your CSM squads. Take 2x melta guns in each squad, and ditch the aspiring champion. Unless you give the champion a fist, you really don't need one.

I know its cliche, but consider using a lash sorc instead of a warptime one. Bringing the enemy troops closer to you is a huge bonus, so you can charge them earlier, and rend them to shreds.

It sounds like your plan in previous games have been flawed... when playing against the guard with ANY marine army variant (imperial included), the goal is to get up close and rip things up. Chaos do this better than most. your most basic troops can annihilate anything the guard has at close range, so don't ever try to get into a shooting match with the guard. you'll loose.

You have horrible weapon load-out on your CSM. Two squads are naked! The other two have a lascannon... that is a pretty damn expensive lascannon that is hardly going to shoot. Don't give CSM heavy weapons, they want 2x specials (and give them two of the same weapon) If you want heavy weapons, give them to havocs, or just buy oblits and tanks.

And where is your sorcerer going? Is he hoofing it across the board alone? Is he hanging out with the havocs, looking big and taking some hits? He seems really misplaced. You are better off with a deamon prince, or if that is not available to you, a power armoured sorcerer/lord that at least can join the rhino rush.

Not trying to be an ass here, but there are some glaring mistakes in this list that needs to be fixed before you even start looking at tactics

I'm not much of a raptor fan. I reckon you might be better off without them (or maybe only 1 squad) to give you more points elsewhere.
as Horst said..IG don't have a hope against you in HTH, that in mind, you could get a DP with wings and mark of Khorne for 140pts then maybe keep him with a squad of raptors to give him a bit of support?
that gives you plenty of attacks and 2D6 penetration to pop tanks with, so they can take on troops or vehicles.

Illumini wrote:You have horrible weapon load-out on your CSM. Two squads are naked! The other two have a lascannon... that is a pretty damn expensive lascannon that is hardly going to shoot. Don't give CSM heavy weapons, they want 2x specials (and give them two of the same weapon) If you want heavy weapons, give them to havocs, or just buy oblits and tanks.

And where is your sorcerer going? Is he hoofing it across the board alone? Is he hanging out with the havocs, looking big and taking some hits? He seems really misplaced. You are better off with a deamon prince, or if that is not available to you, a power armoured sorcerer/lord that at least can join the rhino rush.

Not trying to be an ass here, but there are some glaring mistakes in this list that needs to be fixed before you even start looking at tactics

No offense taken, this is the type of advice I was looking for. I don't have much experience (as I'm sure you could tell), so advice in all forms is welcome. The termie sorc was there because I had no other HQ option, but I just got back from the store with a DP and regular sorc in hand, making a new list based on this advice and some from L-O.

Thanks everyone!

OK, I do not play CSM, but with a static gunline which he seems to be decimating you, i would say, if you can deep strike oblits on a chaos icon get close and deep strike and melta, also maybe some flanking CSM, chosen I think they are called. Remember if you get close enough to his tanks and infantry he runs the risk of hitting his own troops with the scatter. Also if you can multi charge his guys, perferrably hitting a vehicle and a squad of troops, put all your attacks on the thing that can't hurt you, and make sure you lock in combat for his shooting turn, hopefully you can get out during your assualt phase and charge another of his units.

New list:

1850 Pts - Chaos Marines Roster

HQ: Daemon Prince (1#, 155 pts)
1 Daemon Prince @ 155 pts (Wings; Close Combat Weapon; Fearless; Warptime x1)

Troops: Chaos Space Marines (11#, 205 pts)
10 Chaos Space Marines @ 205 pts (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x10; Bolter x8; Close Combat Weapon x10; Meltagun x2; Rhino)
1 Rhino (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Twin Linked Bolter)

Troops: Chaos Space Marines (11#, 205 pts)
10 Chaos Space Marines @ 205 pts (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x10; Bolter x8; Close Combat Weapon x10; Meltagun x2; Rhino)
1 Rhino (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Twin Linked Bolter)

Troops: Chaos Space Marines (11#, 205 pts)
10 Chaos Space Marines @ 205 pts (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x10; Bolter x8; Close Combat Weapon x10; Meltagun x2; Rhino)
1 Rhino (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Twin Linked Bolter)

Heavy Support: Havocs (10#, 300 pts)
10 Havocs @ 300 pts (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Chaos Glory; Bolt Pistol x10; Bolter x6; Close Combat Weapon x10; Lascannon x4)

Heavy Support: Obliterators (3#, 225 pts)
3 Obliterators @ 225 pts (Obliterator Weapons; Power Fist; Fearless; Slow and Purposeful)

Heavy Support: Defiler (1#, 150 pts)
1 Defiler @ 150 pts (Fleet; Battle Cannon; Dreadnought CCW x2; Close Combat Arm; Close Combat Arm; Daemonic Possession; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers)

Elite: Chosen (5#, 110 pts)
5 Chosen @ 110 pts (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x5; Bolter x3; Close Combat Weapon x5; Meltagun x2; Infiltrate)

Elite: Terminators (5#, 185 pts)
5 Terminators @ 185 pts (Terminator Armour; Chaos Glory; Power Weapon x5; Combi-melta x5)

Elite: Chosen (5#, 110 pts)
5 Chosen @ 110 pts (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x5; Bolter x3; Close Combat Weapon x5; Meltagun x2; Infiltrate)

The idea is to deep strike the terminators and oblits (and maybe the DP too?), and outflank with the chosen. Havocs sit and shoot, everything else rush forward. Try to get the defiler in CC with vehicles, and disembark the CSM with rhino cover infront of his gunline, then multi assault his few troops and hope it doesn't take until turn 5 for all my reserves to come in. What do you guys think?

Mang if Leman russes are giving you grief, termicide that punk. 3 terms, combimeltas, x2.

Don't be afraid to run a pwrfist/2x flamer squad in a rhino. The flamers for roasting his platoons in KP games/vets off objectives, Pwrfist for sents and tanks. Some games you won't use/need the fist, others you'll laugh your guts out as you fist a sentinel or Russ.

Havocs- 1 Lascannon, 1-2 Missle launchers, then 1-2 Autocannons. Will kill Chimeras, Valk/Vendettas, armoured sents. Works really well vs Mechvets with a squad with 2 flamers nearby

I leave a reaper AC on defilers- if you get immobolized and a weapon destroyed, your defiler is now a large peice of angry terrain the TL makes up for BS 3

Havocs- 1 Lascannon, 1-2 Missle launchers, then 1-2 Autocannons. Seriously. Your friend loves Sentinels? He's gonna hate Havocs.

Don't deepstrike your daemonprince. Asides from a deepstrike mishap, his game will consist of-
1) landing
2) casting warptime?
3) run d6
4) die horribly in the next turn

true he might absorb alot of fire, but he will do the same flying up the field- and can snake a cover save or 2 whilst doing it!

Personal icons, or IOCG, are great if your deepstriking. My last game was decided hands down by the arrival of 2 termicide squads, who were guided by a IOCG on the edge of a forest. 1 team went on the other side of the forest, the other went forward to DS behind some marines to melta a Russ (2v2 CSM/IG, SM/IG). If i didn't have that icon, i could have scattered and failed to blow the tanks. Icon in a rhino up the field is oblit/termicide best friend

I had the same problem with guard recently, accept it was leman russes, and plasma sentinels. Use the obliterators like you thought you would-deepstrike behind the tanks and use meltas. The Basilisks are AP3 so they can't cut through your oblits armour, and the sentinels will have a bit of trouble targetting em if you leap behind some tanks-especially if you're in a corner, as previously mentioned. Another idea is to have a squad of chosen in a rhino with melta guns or melta bombs who outflank. They can come from the sides, or even the rear. A normal sorcerer can use lash as mentioned above, however if they're in a chimera and with all the AP 3/2 weaponry, you might want to give him a Mark of Tzeentch and Bolt of Change. Or you could even give him a jump-pack, and let him accompany the raptors. This also makes him relentless, you he can use his spell on the move. With him in a squad and bolt of change, that's 3 Str 8 weaponrt-5 if you include the other raptor squad. Another idea which has just been mentioned is keep everything in reserve. Deepstrike the raptors and obliterators(you'll be able to deepstrike the sorcerer because he has a jump-pack) and use the meltas on the vehicles. While they deal with this wave, outflank your chosen in a rhino and run your marines from the back.
Here's a rough list of 2000pts, which uses no new things. Not amazing, but a starting point.
Dp- Wings-Mark of Tzeentch : 130pts
Chaos sorcerer-Jump Pack, Mark of Tzeentch, Bolt of change: 175pts
5x Raptors-2x Meltaguns: 120pts.
5x Raptors-2x Meltaguns: 120pts
10x Marines-Meltagun,flamer,Rhino with EA:215pts
10x Marines-Meltagun, flamer,Rhino with EA: 215pts
10x Marines-Meltagun,flamer,Rhino with EA:215pts
10x Chosen-5x Meltaguns, Rhino with Combi-Melta:270pts
8x Havocs-2x Lascannon, 2x Missile Launcher:185pts
2x Obliterators
2xObliterators

There's two ways you can work this list. First is have all in reserve but havocs, who are out of LOS from the guard. Preferably a building, so the basilisk can't fire indirect. The rest deepstrikes in (raptors+obliteratros+sorcerer) outflank (chosen) or come in and offer support in a big rush (CSM squads in rhinos).
Another way you can use this list is by deploying it all, with the exception of the oblits. The rhinos surge foward. Behinnd them are the raptors. Next to the rhinos is a dp, who will get shot at alot, but not hurt 2 much. The havocs will hunker down in terrain, and destroy as many vehicles as possible, their priority being the basilisks, as they can destroy your rhinos easier than the sentinels. When the chosen arrive, attack the sentinels. Or, you can give them flamers instead of meltaguns. Then you can tool up the other non-flamer folks with combi-flamers. These guys can engage and destroy the infantry platoon with relative ease (with help from the rhino). When the marine squads arrive, decide which units you want to destroy, and send some guys 2 own it. The obliterators can take down anything you don't reckon your csm squad will reach. Or a squad can even help the chosen with twin linked/heavy flamers. Finally, bear in mind that the basilisk have a minimum range of 12", so you can get your squads close to it without worrying about any repercussion. Hope that helped.

Edit: DANG! I took too long typing up my comment. And I also realised that the list is only 1850pts. :(

karimabuseer wrote:A normal sorcerer can use lash as mentioned above, however if they're in a chimera and with all the AP 3/2 weaponry, you might want to give him a Mark of Tzeentch and Bolt of Change. Or you could even give him a jump-pack, and let him accompany the raptors. This also makes him relentless, you he can use his spell on the move. With him in a squad and bolt of change, that's 3 Str 8 weaponrt-5 if you include the other raptor squad.

IIRC all the chaos shooting psychic attacks are asault, so you can use all those spells on the move. And I'm not sure how a jump pack makes a unit relentless?

Jihallah wrote:

karimabuseer wrote:A normal sorcerer can use lash as mentioned above, however if they're in a chimera and with all the AP 3/2 weaponry, you might want to give him a Mark of Tzeentch and Bolt of Change. Or you could even give him a jump-pack, and let him accompany the raptors. This also makes him relentless, you he can use his spell on the move. With him in a squad and bolt of change, that's 3 Str 8 weaponrt-5 if you include the other raptor squad.

IIRC all the chaos shooting psychic attacks are asault, so you can use all those spells on the move. And I'm not sure how a jump pack makes a unit relentless?

Wow. Bolt of change is assault 1. Sorry about that, I always thought of it as a multi-melta with out the melta special rule. And jump infantry are relentless (+ in the armoury it states:" Models equipped with Jump-packs are jump infantry as describe in the Warhammer 40k rulebook"

You're confusing "Jump Infantry" with "Jet Pack." Only Jet Pack are relentless, and to the best of my knowledge, that's pretty much exclusively Tau.

It's nice to build a collection of models so can field different armies vs. a wide variety of opponents - all-around tournament, for campaigns when you know who you will be facing, tough test games to help a friend practice, etc.

My overall suggestion is to make certain that your units have synergy. If half your army is static and half is deep-striking or rushing the enemy lines, you are going to have problems completing mission objectives and mutually supporting units so they aren't picked apart.

I second the notion that the lascannon is very expensive in the CSM squads. That is sad, but true it seems. You're almost better off using a small Chosen squad with just the lascannon! Can't remember the person's handle, but a SM player had some good advice in terms of fielding anti-tank weapons - you are better off using 6 units with one lascannon apiece than 2 units of 3 Obliterators.

Hope this is helpful. I am currently using this for anti-armor in any sized list:
2 Rhino units with 2 x melta
1 CSM unit with lascannon
2 units of 2 Obliterators
1 LR

- Blackbone