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Is there anyway of getting scoring/troop vanguard vets or assault marines in this codex, do we know yet?

 Brother SRM wrote:
The Ultramarines Tactical trait sounds head and shoulders better than the Fists' Bolter Drill. Reroll all misses with Tactical Marines vs. reroll 1s? That's just kind of insulting if that's exactly how it's written. I'm hoping something got lost in translation or left out.

Yes, the UM Tactical trait is easily better than anything than the other chapters can offer, and makes IF bolter drill look pathetic. Also, it bugs me that we apparently have two chapters whose Tactical Marines are better shots than their Sternguard. (Though UM Sternguard are as good shots as IF Tacticals...)

If IF Sternguard don't get to re-rolls 1 with bolter drill....

...I don't even know.

The result, of course, would be that if there was any rules loophole allowing me to take Pedro Kantor in a UM force taking the Tactical rule, I would do that in a heartbeat, and then add Sternguard in.

If not...*sigh* I guess I'll play IF with Kantor to get them in, but GW would have really screwed the pooch on that one. However, if Sternguard have gone down in cost, to say, 23 points, that helps (unit of 10 with 4 combi-weapons and a powerfist comes in at 275, instead of 295, a nice 20 point drop).

On the plus side with IF, all those Long Fangs I made will come in handy with the Devastators tank hunters thing. Missile Launchers all over the place, this time with some flakk. Downside to that is that outside of casual play, devastators will still get shredded by hellturkeys and other AP3 goodies.

I hope there's an option for a Mastery Level 3 psyker where I can choose powers. I want 3 powers off of the biomancer table, preferably any three of 1-4. Stick that bad boy with 9 Sternguard, and watch the carnage as your buddies fire into an enemy force that's at -1 toughness, and then charges because of relentless, with the Libby all the while either boosting their strength, toughness, and getting EW (challenges much), or shooting a couple guys dead with the life siphon.

Eldercaveman wrote:
Is there anyway of getting scoring/troop vanguard vets or assault marines in this codex, do we know yet?

There is a Hq in the Forgeworld book. Babad(or however you spell it) book 1. I do believe it is the Firehawk hq allows Assault and Vanguard as troops. Being as FW is 100% leagle in games now I've been looking into these Hq's. Well see what the new codex brings us. I am quiet excited so far.

 Arrathon wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:
Is there anyway of getting scoring/troop vanguard vets or assault marines in this codex, do we know yet?

There is a Hq in the Forgeworld book. Babad(or however you spell it) book 1. I do believe it is the Firehawk hq allows Assault and Vanguard as troops. Being as FW is 100% leagle in games now I've been looking into these Hq's. Well see what the new codex brings us. I am quiet excited so far.

I'm going to need to look into that, I've always been interested in an all vanguard as troops army, but there was obviously no way to do it.

Some of these chapter traits sound quite juicy.

I've always loved the idea of devestators...just not their point costs and limitations. The UM devastator trait seems quite nice though; who doesn't like the idea of a bunch of plasma cannons and lascannons running around, like a boss, blasting things.

Though the Raven Guard one sounds very, very nice. I'm partial to Vanguard, Assault marines and Scouts with my Blood Ravens, despite their terribleness, and the whole "unknown founder" business and pretty adaptive style of warfare the BR have been portrayed with gives me some flexibility in choices. Decisions, decisions.

Or I could just say "feth it" and keep working on Tau.

BTW, where are these rumours coming from? I though no one was supposed to have the codex yet.

And lo and behold, the new tactical box looks... exactly the same!

 l0k1 wrote:
UNIT CHANGES
-Command Squads may take bikes, and a bike-equipped Commander makes a SM Biker unit troops.

CHAPTER ABILITIES
- White Scars bike equipped Captain makes 1 bike squad troops

So what is the WS ability then? Redundant (I wouldn't be surprised) Or is it two squads per HQ guy then?

 Tappers wrote:
And lo and behold, the new tactical box looks... exactly the same!

Better get your eyeglass prescription checked..

I can see a lot more people playing Vanilla MEQ now.

The IF and UM rules are brutal.

I think I found a reason to build that Minotaurs army now.

Looks like UM are definitely the winners when it comes to Chapter traits, and tactical doctrine wins out of all their traits.

Makes me glad that (A) I play UM successors, so no chance of being accused of bandwagon jumping and (B) I already try to take at least 1 tactical squad per 500 points.

Re the AA tanks, I don't think lack of Interceptor is that big a deal. As has already been said, it might have made them a little too good. As it is you can already choose between anti-air armourbane or being able to target two flyers independently with BS4 autocannons, sounds like a good package to me.

Puscifer wrote:

The IF and UM rules are brutal.

IF rules are pretty weak. Bolter Drill is a joke, as it only lets you re-roll ones with your normal bolters, not with special ammo and probably not with stormbolters either. It makes you tactical squads a tiny bit shootier, but if you wanted to spam shooty tacticals, UM lets you re-roll all misses with them, including heavy and special weapons, whilst giving re-rolling ones to all those other units and weapons IF Bolter Drill doesn't affect. Tank Hunter is nice, but this is not a vehicle heavy edition anyway, and it affects only Devastators and Dev Centurions. Meanwhile UM re-roll hits with all their meltas and missiles in their Tac squads and re-roll ones with their devastators. UM anti-armour firepower will easily equal that of IF, while being more accurate as anti-air thanks to the re-rolls and retaining extra shootyness with all other weapons.

While we consider that UM get six (?) special characters while others get maybe one, it is clear that UM are the optimal choice. I like that they gave us customisation and choices, but I hate false choices. If these rumours are true, you get a choice between playing Ultramarine or intentionally gimping yourself for flavour. I really hope that there's some error in the reporting and UM Tactical trait is not as good as it seems, because currently it seems that its existence makes other options pretty much false choices.

Hoping I can have a mix of chapter traits in an army. Not for any tactical advantage but because I have always wanted a squad of Celestial lions in my Black Templars army just for fluff reasons. It won't work as well if my Celestial Lions squad has to be a crusader squad with Templar traits but I am sure I can work something out!

The more rumors keep showing up, the more I want to start C:SM. I'm hyped about a possible Raven Guard / Salamanders army, this release is gonna be brutal.

 Crimson wrote:

Puscifer wrote:

The IF and UM rules are brutal.

IF rules are pretty weak. Bolter Drill is a joke, as it only lets you re-roll ones with your normal bolters, not with special ammo and probably not with stormbolters either. It makes you tactical squads a tiny bit shootier, but if you wanted to spam shooty tacticals, UM lets you re-roll all misses with them, including heavy and special weapons, whilst giving re-rolling ones to all those other units and weapons IF Bolter Drill doesn't affect. Tank Hunter is nice, but this is not a vehicle heavy edition anyway, and it affects only Devastators and Dev Centurions. Meanwhile UM re-roll hits with all their meltas and missiles in their Tac squads and re-roll ones with their devastators. UM anti-armour firepower will easily equal that of IF, while being more accurate as anti-air thanks to the re-rolls and retaining extra shootyness with all other weapons.

While we consider that UM get six (?) special characters while others get maybe one, it is clear that UM are the optimal choice. I like that they gave us customisation and choices, but I hate false choices. If these rumours are true, you get a choice between playing Ultramarine or intentionally gimping yourself for flavour. I really hope that there's some error in the reporting and UM Tactical trait is not as good as it seems, because currently it seems that its existence makes other options pretty much false choices.

I agree on the UM tactical doctrine. It simply sounds way too powerful when compared to all the other doctrines in the entire book. If this is true, you will see many marine players playing "count as" UM and just spamming tactical squads to the extreme. This will most likely result in my hybrid IG army vanishing in a pink mist turn one if you play without an Army Selection system or other house rules.

 Arrathon wrote:
There is a Hq in the Forgeworld book. Babad(or however you spell it) book 1. I do believe it is the Firehawk hq allows Assault and Vanguard as troops. Being as FW is 100% leagle in games now I've been looking into these Hq's. Well see what the new codex brings us. I am quiet excited so far.

IA9: The Badab War => Knight Captain Elam Courbray can do that.
But you get almost the same stuff by fielding Shadow Captain Korvydae from the Raven Guard (IA8)

Korvy is cheaper, but he needs scouts and actually turns ASM into Troops.
He also has a stronger attack, but he is unwieldy. On the other hand he has a better save and LD.

My plan is to take Korvy and make an ASM army with a Hq or Captain (rumours are not clear on that one) on a bike, so I can also take Bikers as Troop-choice.
I'll have speedy fast attacking troops all over the place ^^

Any news on if a Character can make Terminators troops?

I've wanted to field a Vanilla TDA Army for ages.

Puscifer wrote:
Any news on if a Character can make Terminators troops?

I've wanted to field a Vanilla TDA Army for ages.

Considering there are three other Space Maeine armies that allow this, I would seriously doubt another would be useful.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

Puscifer wrote:
Any news on if a Character can make Terminators troops?

I've wanted to field a Vanilla TDA Army for ages.

Considering there are three other Space Maeine armies that allow this, I would seriously doubt another would be useful.

Especially considering how badly Termie-armies suffer now in 6th...

Can someone point me in the direction of the Specific chapter straits?

Glenmorray wrote:
Can someone point me in the direction of the Specific chapter straits?

Yep:

 l0k1 wrote:

CHAPTER ABILITIES
- Raven Guard have Stealth, may use jump packs in movement AND assault phase.
- Imperial Fists reroll '1s' to hit with standard bolters (Bolter Drill). Devatators/Centurions have Tank Hunters and +1 on the building damage table.
- Salamanders reroll failed to-wounds with flame weapons, and failed armor penetration rolls versus vehicles. Characters gain a free master crafted weapon. Vulkan is the only way to grant twin-linked meltas.
- Black Templars have Chapter Tactics options instead of Vows. The Emperor's Champion is an HQ choice for them only and chooses from either (reroll failed to-hits plus rending in challenges), or (gain Adamantium Will plus Crusader). No Librarians allowed.
- Ultramarines choose from one of the following donctrines:
a) Tactical - Re-roll ones, unless they're Tactical marines and they re-roll all shooting failed to hits.
b) Assault - Re-roll charge distance, unless they're Assault squads, Bikes, Attack bikes who gain Fleet.
c) Devstator - Re-roll on snap shots and overwatch, unless they're Devastators who gain Relentless (except when disembarking).
- White Scars bike equipped Captain makes 1 bike squad troops
- Successor Chapter use the Chapter Tactics of their Founding Chapter. Many Successor Chapters are listed by name.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

Puscifer wrote:
Any news on if a Character can make Terminators troops?

I've wanted to field a Vanilla TDA Army for ages.

Considering there are three other Space Maeine armies that allow this, I would seriously doubt another would be useful.

Especially considering how badly Termie-armies suffer now in 6th...

How do termie-armies suffer in 6th? With the nerf to power weapons etc I think termies got a huge boost

If they didn't struggle before in 6th, if the grav weapon speculation is true then they certainly will once the codex is released.

 Bonde wrote:

I agree on the UM tactical doctrine. It simply sounds way too powerful when compared to all the other doctrines in the entire book. If this is true, you will see many marine players playing "count as" UM and just spamming tactical squads to the extreme.

Another thing is, I think rerolls should be SPECIAL. They should be rare, granted by special wargear (twin-linking, master crafted) or Preferred enemy.

Having an army-wide reroll is not only powerful, but really annoying to play and play against.

I don't like most of these rumoured rules.

 Breotan wrote:

 Tappers wrote:
And lo and behold, the new tactical box looks... exactly the same!

Better get your eyeglass prescription checked..

Legs: Still in same squatting position, just different kneepads.
Chestplates: Slightly altered designs.
Helmets: Exactly the same, except one has got studs in it. OMG!
Weapons: Same bolters and missile launcher, but new graviton gun.

Whilst I admit that the sergeant's breastplate looks good, as well as his head, there are are barely any differences that warrants a price increase, new packaging and all that effort of moulding it all again. They could've changed the stupid legs squatting down (admittedly they did it on one), different bolter designs and cooler bits and bobs to add on.

 Juggalo17 wrote:

How do termie-armies suffer in 6th? With the nerf to power weapons etc I think termies got a huge boost

There's so many AP2 shooty weapons being fielded and introduced in 6th that you could just as well be running around naked than wear Terminator armor.

 insaniak wrote:

 SickSix wrote:

(Is it possible for White Scars to run an all bike army) Yes but you have to take 2 captains so you can get two bike squads to be troops.

This is total crap. So WS players have their entire collection invalidated (those that did build bike armies). So now they will have to run CA to run a 'fluffy' army.

Having to add in an extra HQ doesn't invalidate your entire colection. It just requires a re-jig of your army list. Something that pretty much everyone has to do every single time any codex is revised.

Wrong. I have 7 units of Bikes. They could be fielded legally in the current book. You can get at most 5 in the new Codex, and requires me going and making another Captain to do so. Are you telling me that the money and effort I put on those 20 Bikes is no reason for me to be pissed off about this?

 insaniak wrote:

MadmanMSU wrote:
If I remember correctly, the Black Templars allies chart is unchanged. They still follow the one in the book, for what its worth. Pretty sure that's what they said on 40k Radio.

EDIT: Well, it says their "allies matrix did not change". I don't know if that means they keep the old one or what. I'm assuming thats what it means.

The allies matrix goes by Codex, not by army list. So if the new Marine codex doesn't change it, and BT are now in the Marine codex, then BT now use the allies options for Codex Space Marines instead of Codex Black Templars.

Good hopefully they will fix some of the cock ups they made with the first incarnation of the Allies Matrix.

The new Chapter rules look interesting - although the UM always re-roll ones seems out of wack?

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 SickSix wrote:

(Is it possible for White Scars to run an all bike army) Yes but you have to take 2 captains so you can get two bike squads to be troops.

This is total crap. So WS players have their entire collection invalidated (those that did build bike armies). So now they will have to run CA to run a 'fluffy' army.

Having to add in an extra HQ doesn't invalidate your entire colection. It just requires a re-jig of your army list. Something that pretty much everyone has to do every single time any codex is revised.

Wrong. I have 7 units of Bikes. They could be fielded legally in the current book. You can get at most 5 in the new Codex, and requires me going and making another Captain to do so. Are you telling me that the money and effort I put on those 20 Bikes is no reason for me to be pissed off about this?

Well, 18 bikes, and I'm sure by the time you are at 50 Bikes/Attack Bikes + Biker Captain, you are in double Force Org chart at that point anyways.

So, no, not really.

EDIT: Well, I did some of the math, and if you went exclusively bikes, no other support, I suppose that might screw you over.