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I don't understand this debate tangent. Rules state that you can freely rotate any infantry for shooting, so no one has to shoot through the back of their heads. No one bothers doing this because it is a waste of playing time, but I suppose you could just refer to that rule against people trying to extend your game by an extra 10-20 minutes... Maybe they are lonely and need the extra one-on-one time?

People just like getting on here and starting an argument because they can.

Elessar wrote:No its not. The only difference is that vehicle LOS, and therefore vision, is drawn from the gun mounting, and along the barrel. Infantry LOS is drawn from the eyes.

Allowing an Infantryman to shoot through his OWN head is the exact same as allowing a vehicle to shoot through it's own hull.

Except non-vehicle units ignore models in their own unit for LOS. So how do you get that don't ignore shooting through the actual models head but you do ignore another model in the units head? RAW allows you to ignore models in that unit, the model you are drawing LOS from, is in that unit.

lets keep to the topic

sourclams wrote:For the sake of argument say that Deffrollas work, how does a Land Raider heavy list, or even one with only one or two, deal with 4-6 Battlewagons with Deff Rollas/KFF?

Thoughts, off the top of my head...
= Mount Multimeltas. The more the better. Obviously the 5+ cover save will be a pain, but hey.
= Outmaneuver them. As the big block of Battlewagons closes on you it'll be easier to move 12" and PotMS a Lascannon shot into their side armour.
= Ram them back. Deffrollas don't work if I Ram you (or charge you, see below), and if you're moving your Wagons as a block so's they all get the KFF save it's not hard to throw one or two Land Raiders at them in such a way that they'll end up having to take a serious detour to get to the other three. If you're NOT moving them as a block so's they all get the KFF save then holding up the ones that are and picking off the ones that ain't seems like a sensible thing to do.
= If you've got enough infantry models to risk a few (and at 2500pts you bloody well should have) then simply charge the Battlewagons right out of the Raiders, after having PotMSed a shot at them of course. Sure you're hitting on 6es but at S4 versus Open-Topped rear AV10 Tactical Marines and Scouts have a reasonable chance to Wreck a Battlewagon without resorting to Krak Grenades. The odds improve drastically if your spare models are Termies, HQ Characters or the suchlike.
= If we're assuming Deffrollas work against vehicles, we can also assume that PotMS works after Ramming (which is a far safer assumption to make, if we're honest). Therefore you Ram and shoot. Even if it doesn't, it's not a massive problem.
= S10 still only has a 50% chance to Glance and a 30% chance to Penetrate AV14, and D6 doesn't automatically mean "6". The KFF save is a Guardsman's armour save, so you're going to fail it more than you pass.

My personal favourite, though, and the one most assured to work:
= Don't play a Raider-spam list.

As to lists with only one or two Raiders in them, how you stop the Wagon-spam all depends what else you're playing. If Wagons with Boyz are all he has throw your Land Speeders at them. Or your Scout Bikers; yeah you're going to lose the Scout Bikers, but that's hardly a crippling blow. He's losing a Deffrolla Battlewagon, which seems like a fair exchange. Bolt-Pistoling the rear armour and then charging should take a few of them out too, or at the very least cripple some for a turn or two. Then again you could just line up a load of Melta-toting Bikers in front of them and beat the hell out of the whole shebang in one go, then leave the Bikers to get eaten by whatever gets out of the Wagons as your Taccies in their Raiders sit on the objectives.

Seriously, there's a million and one tools to use against Battlewagons, even 'Ard-Case Deffrolla ones; your job is to make sure you've got enough of these tools available to you.

Yes, some lists have the mobility or firepower to deal with it, basic Marines to my knowledge don't really have the options.

If anyone can do something, it's Vanilla Smurfs. Sure, running 6 pimped out full-strength Tactical Squads and 5 Land Raiders at 2500pts is going to lead to an unwieldy, gimped army, but that's what you get for not running an optimised list

actually the KFF save on a vehicle is +4

Lord Solar Plexus wrote:One would hope so, seeing as that is considerably more points than 30 Orks. How hard it is to get them off of an objective is of course relative. Fire Dragon + Banshees would naturally have an easier time against the GK's.

Well done; now you're starting to look at the debate from the right perspective. Nothing exists in a vacuum.

Fine, although I consider a strong list to contain some balancing elements, and a balanced list to be inherently stronger in an all comers environment than one taken with background or real life reasons in mind. Dunno how far we disagree here.

Not at all.

I don't know if the majority really thinks this way. I can imagine it is nice to have at least something that could possibly work in a pinch but the thought that opponents won't be able to handle X or Y as such doesn't strike me as outlandish.

The problem being, of course, when you get to an opponent who CAN handle [x], [y] and [z], and can also handle [a], [b] and [c] as well. Raider-spam and the ease with which it gets swept aside by the likes of Mechdar, Vulkan Bikers and even Meltabomb-Blood Claws is a cautionary lesson as to why taking things purely because you don't think your opponent will have the tools to deal with them is a bad idea. The Ork Codex's problem is that the entire army list seems to have been built around this very tenet, and thus Ork players can do nothing BUT take stuff and count on their opponents not to be able to deal with it.

People take plaguebearers or AV14 or Wave Serpents or whatnot with precisely this motto, and if a majority of opponents cannot in fact deal with that, then you *have* brought a competetive list.

However, if every opponent brings an optimised 5th Edition list and the skill-set to wipe your eye with it, your eye is going to get wiped.

That is why I offered alternative adjectives instead. I am painfully aware that IG tanks are expensive.

My point was that people often whinge about the new IG Codex, pointing to it as an example of an overpowered army book. It's not overpowered at all, and attempting to build one of those 500 Artillery Shots And Also Here's Russes And Meltamechvetspamlolwtfbbq lists will show you that you really don't get much more for your money than you do with other armies.

What the IG Codex is, is a 5th Edition Codex. That's why you have trouble playing your 4th Edition lists against it. Not because WAAH THEY GET PLANES AND I DON'T.

Wait...they don't already?!? What the...

No, because most people recognise that when I kill 90 Orks every turn just by throwing Kroot at them it's because the Ork player has brought a woefully gakky army list and I haven't. That's what you get for hanging around with people who have moved into 5th Edition; they just don't give you the plaudits you deserve for beating sub-par armies :(

LOL SARCASM

"Taking into account" is very different from "tailoring towards a single build". The latter is utter folly, and if that is indeed what is happening in tournaments, my world view lies in tatters. The former is the simple thought process (and, hopefully, according action) of "What if I chance upon X?", so you include some templates for crowd control, some autocannon for transport hunting etc.

That's not how optimising works. Vulkan Bikers are optimised (well, they are if you take Vulkan, throw him the hell away and buy another fscking Bike Squad) because every unit in the list can deal with everything with the addition of a few Melta weapons. Mechdar are optimised because their (cheap-ass, points-wise) Serpents can move 12" and either Lance you or drop Fire Dragons on your face while you, in return, never get a better than 50% chance to damage them.

Optimising is about taking stuff that can handle itself against anything and is capable of doing something worthwhile each turn (even if it's only sitting on a point in a Land Raider so's it counts as scoring), not taking whatever you'd normally take and stuffing a few "utility" upgrades in there too.

I see how Doin' It Wrong is bad but you did not need to explain that, seeing as it is dangerously close to a tautology. I do not see that people actually Do It Wrong though. Of course the codex comes into this: The sheer variety of possible builds gives Orks as a faction an edge.

The fact that they all revolve around me not having the tools to deal with their low-grade-ass lots-of-dice expendability crap blunts that edge; because if I do, they're stuck.

The first part I agree with, the second, not so much. You need counters to threats, otherwise you cannot tackle everything. You need to include stuff to deal with monsters, vehicles, infantry of all calibres, fast stuff, resilient stuff etc.

Agreed. Which is why optimised lists work.

Sometimes, some tools will be wasted, as flamers don't help much against a Termi-heavy opponent. For example.

If anything in your army doesn't scream "OMG PRIORITY TARGET!" to every opponent you play, you need to dump it. That's how you get to an optimised list. That's why you don't take MM Land Speeders; you take MM/ HF Land Speeders. It's why you don't take Land Raiders, you take Land Raiders with Multimeltas and Extra Armour alongside a gakload of Bikers with Meltaguns and twin-linked Relentless Bolters. It's why you don't just take Fireknife Suits, you take Pathfinders to remove the cover saves of any units that they're going to shoot at.

Optimised means streamlined, containing no useless crap that some people will be able to ignore. Give me any Ork Codex army list and I'll show you a 5th Edition army list that will be able to ignore at least half of the gak it brings to the table.

To be more concrete, autocannon, assault cannon and scatter lasers will probably mince Speed Freaks/Trukk heavy Orks - if they can get enough shots off that is. I'm not really sure how they'd impress a horde or Kan Wall of Death. Of course one can argue that a horde player hopes not to meet a flamer-heavy opponent but I've yet to see a list with enough templates to worry - not if you'd like to have some tools for other jobs, too.

Why does every unit have to be geared towards one specific task?

By taking the best you can get in spades

I.E taking as much stuff as possible and hoping your opponent can't deal with it? What constitutes "the best you can get" in the Ork Codex? What units do they have that can deal with infantry AND vehicles, apart from Lootas and Kustom MegaBlasta Kans, both of which suck arse-hair?

- basic Orks, with a little support from elsewhere (Deffkoptas, Nobs, Kans).

I see.

I'd contend that if this represents "the best you can get" you're already in a whole world of gak.

Which I insist is a far too general statement and as such applies to each and every list. Not being able to deal with skimmers, MEQ, AV12, AV14, the opponent's mobility, not being able to handle FNP + T5, or T5 + 3+/5++ Sv, or re-rollable saves, you name it.

Which represents a weakness in your opponent's list that anyone can take advantage of. What happens, though, when you get a Mechdar Serpent-spammer facing off against a Vulkan Bikers player? Two lists built around the ethos of every unit being a threat in some way poking at each other for weaknesses and having to be played well. What happens when you get a Superfriends player facing off against a Wagon-spam KFF list? Two gakky lists mongling towards each other in a great cataclysm of nonsense with each player waiting for the other's crap to fail.

Platitudes?... Well lah-di-dah, Mr. "I have failed to comprehend anything that's been going on thus far but I demand in a Teutonically arrogant way that you answer my non-points anyway!"

That was actually pretty funny, Frank. :-)

I aim to please


PS: Any and all threads which can be boiled down to one set of people saying "Your Codex sucks" and another set saying "No it doesn't" don't evolve into pissing matches; they're basically pissing matches from the get-go. If you're bored of participating in said pissing match then go away and leave the rest of us to it, otherwise stop wailing and gnashing and get back to contributing.


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thehod wrote:actually the KFF save on a vehicle is +4

Ohnoes, so it's a 50-50 thing I have to deal with? Well that... actually no, it doesn't really change anything does it, because my Raiders are still worth 3 of your Wagons.

Just correcting your statement and a +4 is a good difference from +5. I disagree with this being a pissing match or a contest to see how big your e-peen is unless you like to do that kind of thing, I see it as a passionate debate between people of different views . Me? I just enjoy the conversation between you and others and how serious we all take a game of toy soldiers.

Though I find it amazing you can kill 90 orks a turn with kroot. They must be wounding on 2s with 70 attacks that hit on 3s with rerolls. Tell me when they have your dream kroot codex out in stores.

I hate to burst your bubble but there is no list in 40k that can handle themselves against anything. Fatecrusher beats vulkan bikers and mechdar dies to loota spam but Mech IG beats fatecrusher and loota spam loses to raider spam. Tiers in 40k are non existent, only rock-paper-scissors-vortex grenade.

If you take the maximum number of Kroot (100) and get all of them to charge into contact in one turn, you should kill about 56 Orks.

You only need to get another 34 kills from Kroot hounds.

thehod wrote:Just correcting your statement and a +4 is a good difference from +5.

No it isn't. It looks like one, but it's really not.

I disagree with this being a pissing match or a contest to see how big your e-peen is

"My Codex is awesome" versus "no it sucks" = "I can piss 10ft up the wall" versus "pissing up the wall is stupid". There's no other way to frame the debate.

unless you like to do that kind of thing, I see it as a passionate debate between people of different views . Me? I just enjoy the conversation between you and others and how serious we all take a game of toy soldiers.

It's a bit odd to me that people try and call shenanigans when folk get passionate about debates over their hobbies. On a hobby wargaming messageboard. What, are we all supposed to come here and be all blahze about the hobby? Sure there are more important things to talk about, but I talk about those things elsewhere. Here, I talk about 40K

Though I find it amazing you can kill 90 orks a turn with kroot. They must be wounding on 2s with 70 attacks that hit on 3s with rerolls. Tell me when they have your dream kroot codex out in stores.

Yeah, that was an exaggeration for dramatic effect. It's not all Kroot; the Smart Missiles and Crisis Suits and Submunitions and Markerlights and Devilfish also have some part to play in the killing stakes.

I hate to burst your bubble but there is no list in 40k that can handle themselves against anything. Fatecrusher beats vulkan bikers

How, exactly?

and mechdar dies to loota spam

Again, how?

but Mech IG beats fatecrusher and loota spam loses to raider spam. Tiers in 40k are non existent, only rock-paper-scissors-vortex grenade.

I'd say that the tier thing is far more accurate than rock-paper-scissors, although they're both garbage. Building your list properly allows you to take on anyone; learning to play it properly allows you to beat anyone.

Wow, its seems ork is not only a very strong race, it is also a very popular one
And no doubt, orks dominate the metagame. The greatest strength of them is their versatility in games (you need to think alot throughtout the game). Not all players can handle that, which is why many players choose to settle with other races.

I never really thought of it that way... It must be complicated to rush everything straight at the opponent every turn.

Well, doing that would certainly get you killed. If you think Orks are so easy, try one out. Frank is at least putting his "money" where his mouth is here. Kudos on that one Frank, I really look forward to seeing how well you do.



Clay

It's not just running directly at your opponent. It's HOW you run at your opponent.

Orkz die if you just run them directly at your opponent. You have to get them from point A to their opponents face before their shot down. Like a race if you will.

Fearspect wrote:I never really thought of it that way... It must be complicated to rush everything straight at the opponent every turn.

lol that's why people like you and that Frank arent cut out for playing orks. Too tough for you guys

It's not that you have to think a lot when you're playing a "good" ork army. It's that your opponent has to think alot. Frank, I agree with you that an optimized list is a list full of priority targets. I disagree that you can't optimize an ork list. It's not that hard. Battlewagons aren't that easy to kill. If you take a lot of lascannons or multi-meltas then you can deal with the battlewagons but you can't deal with the boyz inside. If you take a lot of anti-infantry then your position is reversed. If you try to balance it out then you don't have enough of either to deal with either. You can argue theory hammer till you're blue in the face but I'm going by personal experience.

artyboy wrote:Battlewagons aren't that easy to kill.

Krak Grenades can penetrate them and regular SM/ Ork CC attacks will Glance them. They're not HARD to kill either.

If you take a lot of lascannons or multi-meltas then you can deal with the battlewagons but you can't deal with the boyz inside. If you take a lot of anti-infantry then your position is reversed. If you try to balance it out then you don't have enough of either to deal with either.

In the case of most armies, that's true. In the case of Orks, where anti-infantry weapons will kill their vehicles too, it's not.

You can argue theory hammer till you're blue in the face but I'm going by personal experience.

So's most everybody else in the thread, mate. The old "personal experience" bit doesn't count for much, and if you haven't had the "personal experience" of having and AV10 rear vehicle pounded into uselessness by some random BP/CCW Scout squad or scunnered by Deep-Striking or fast-moving anti infantry weapons then your opponents are Doin' It Wrong.


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artyboy wrote:It's not that you have to think a lot when you're playing a "good" ork army. It's that your opponent has to think alot.

This is what I've been saying all along, and it's what makes the Orks a sucky Codex. Anything that requires more of your opponent than it does of you is bad. It's why Raider-spam doesn't work against hard lists, and it's why Orks don't either.

Orkish wrote:Wow, its seems ork is not only a very strong race, it is also a very popular one
And no doubt, orks dominate the metagame. The greatest strength of them is their versatility in games (you need to think alot throughtout the game). Not all players can handle that, which is why many players choose to settle with other races.

Having played Orks a lot in 5th, as I previously said, and also played MechDar, Chaos, and SM...Orks are by FAR the least complicated to play. Deployment is literally the hardest part of an Ork player's decisions.

Well, I finished my last tourney (the Necro with my Orks). So the final standings with my Orks for three tourneys in July were:

Ard Boyz: 2-0-1
RTT: 3-0
Necro: 2-3 (one loss was against Orks)

In two games at the Necro, I rolled so badly to assault Ghaz, it drastically changed the game. Ghaz with Nobz, I rolled snake eyes and Ghaz was 2 inches away. Suck. Another game, Ghaz was alone and to assault a stationary Land Raider about 2 inches away again. I rolled triple 1's. He got shot to death by the entire army the following turn.

All in all, having played in 3 different tourney enviornments in 3 different cities within 2 states, I definitely won't call them bottom tier. I had two good showings and one bad. The bad showing had some very difficult missions and a few unlucky rolls that I just could not overcome.

Top ten spots at the Necro:

Chaos Marines
Sisters of Battle
Tyrannids
Daemons
Necrons
Orks
Space Marines
Space Marines
Orks
Space Marines
Daemons

This adds further fuel to the argument that Orks are at least competitive enough to hang with the big boys.

Mahu wrote:Top ten spots at the Necro:

Chaos Marines
Sisters of Battle
Tyrannids
Daemons
Necrons
Orks
Space Marines
Space Marines
Orks
Space Marines
Daemons

This adds further fuel to the argument that Orks are at least competitive enough to hang with the big boys.

Using that logic it also shows us that Tyranids, Daemons and Witch Hunters are competetive enough not just to hang with, but indeed to perform better than most of those big boys. Witch Hunters maybe, but the other two?....

Well I saw the landraiders lose to Orks but that could be a fluke.

It is a fluke! Any evidence of orks doing well can be explained away by the general failure of the 40k community to rise to Frank Fugger's Definition of Competitive! There is no refuting his theory! Anyone who disagrees is a nerd-raging knuckledragger!

In other news, Karl Popper is spinning in his grave.

of course it's a fluke - according to FF there's no actual competition anywhere in 40K, so orks can never be proven to be competitive.

Of course, nothing else can be proven to be competitive either.

Eureka! Everything is 3rd tier in 40K! Everything is 1st tier in 40K! *boom* my poor little head just exploded due to the quandary...

Is this thread *still* going?

Geez you'd think people would be beating their heads on desks by now.

Mahu wrote:Top ten spots at the Necro:

Chaos Marines
Sisters of Battle
Tyrannids
Daemons
Necrons
Orks
Space Marines
Space Marines
Orks
Space Marines
Daemons

This adds further fuel to the argument that Orks are at least competitive enough to hang with the big boys.

Were those top ten by battlepoints or by fluffy hobby competition overall points? The former is somewhat relevant, though one would also have to argue that Necrons and Tyranids are competitive (they're not), and the latter makes this laughable as far as support is concerned.

Frank Fugger wrote:

Mahu wrote:Top ten spots at the Necro:

Chaos Marines
Sisters of Battle
Tyrannids
Daemons
Necrons
Orks
Space Marines
Space Marines
Orks
Space Marines
Daemons

This adds further fuel to the argument that Orks are at least competitive enough to hang with the big boys.

Using that logic it also shows us that Tyranids, Daemons and Witch Hunters are competetive enough not just to hang with, but indeed to perform better than most of those big boys. Witch Hunters maybe, but the other two?....

All tyranids and daemons need is a skilled player to use them correctly so yeah.

Danny Internets wrote:

Mahu wrote:Top ten spots at the Necro:

Chaos Marines
Sisters of Battle
Tyrannids
Daemons
Necrons
Orks
Space Marines
Space Marines
Orks
Space Marines
Daemons

This adds further fuel to the argument that Orks are at least competitive enough to hang with the big boys.

Were those top ten by battlepoints or by fluffy hobby competition overall points? The former is somewhat relevant, though one would also have to argue that Necrons and Tyranids are competitive (they're not), and the latter makes this laughable as far as support is concerned.

The Necro is hard to judge because of their Handicap system that informed first turn match ups, and their missions that where mostly Kill Point and anti-HQ heavy. They did have an aggravated mission system, so in order to place highly you had to be able to challenge your opponent whilst accomplishing several missions.

The competition was reasonably tough with Veterans like Mark Parker attending. So even though there was a fair share of baby seals to club, there was also a fair share of extremely talented gamers.

Here are the standings for the top ten if Battle Points where the only factor:

Sisters of Battle
Tyrannids
Necrons
Daemons
Chaos Marines
Space Marines
Orks
Daemons
Space Marines
Orks

You can take into account match ups, how favorible the missions played in the match ups, etc. But there is no denying that the same story to come out of this event matches closely with the rest of the country, namely Deamons, Chaos Space Marines, Space Marines, and Orks are producing the more competitive builds.

You can take into account match ups, how favorible the missions played in the match ups, etc. But there is no denying that the same story to come out of this event matches closely with the rest of the country, namely Deamons, Chaos Space Marines, Space Marines, and Orks are producing the more competitive builds.

By looking at these results and coming to that conclusion, you must also logically conclude that Tyranids and Necrons are top competitors. After all, their representation in the top 10 here equals that of CSM, the competitive nature of which you believe to be substantiated by this list.

Danny Internets wrote:
Were those top ten by battlepoints or by fluffy hobby competition overall points? The former is somewhat relevant, though one would also have to argue that Necrons and Tyranids are competitive (they're not), and the latter makes this laughable as far as support is concerned.

Dude, just shut up. If you have never played a competitive Nid list in 5th edition you are playing the wrong people.

Obviously you, Frank, and Stelek play in this little bubble of a Universe where Sun revolves strictly around you guys. For the rest of us apparently incapable players, National Tournament Results as well as personal experience will help determine our meta game. Not some flame tactic blog site maintained and created by a guy who was permanently banned from this forum for being a gigantic douche bag.