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The above idea IS slowed.

Everyone would pick one of those every time, you would see Typhus so much it would be ridiculous.

Anyways, I just want TS that don't suck.

Huh? It's structured like every other modern 40k Codex, based on HQs and especially Special Characters for army building. I mailed it to Robin C., and both he and Phil really liked it.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Huh? It's structured like every other modern 40k Codex, based on HQs and especially Special Characters for army building. I mailed it to Robin C., and both he and Phil really liked it.

Yes but then Robin would have to change EVERYTHING. For the sake of changing EVERYTHING.

And then Phil would make it ridiculously OP.

Well, they did say that I didn't have enough Special Characters, and that the effects weren't strong enough.

That's the thing folks.

When we see 'Proposed Rules Forum', we interpret that to mean a 'forum' where we 'propose' various homebrew and different 'rules' that don't exist.

When our friend DD sees 'Proposed Rules Forum' he interprets that to mean the 'What would GW do Forum'... and designs things the way they do, defeating the purpose of a proposed rules forum.

Designing things the way GW would do?
That's hardly conceivable.

hmm, I'm not a fan of CSM OR most MEQ. but I think the FNP change is abit... killing it.

FNP is an extra save, so I don't think it should be affected being a USR.

maybe they should make a special rule to replace FNP?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
hmm, I'm not a fan of CSM OR most MEQ. but I think the FNP change is abit... killing it.

FNP is an extra save, so I don't think it should be affected being a USR.

maybe they should make a special rule to replace FNP?

i would like to see an elite/fast attack/heavy support choice for each god, like some form of special nurgle tank, or some special fast attack khorn jump infantry

Well, GW will try to keep the new codex simple (whether it will appear soon or not).
I guess that a streamlined codex will hardly have books for the specific legions as in the awesome 3rd ed codex.

Bump!

These are ideas i've come up with or extensions of stuff i've read on site. I've not bothered to rewrite anything i've seen already, but some of these things might overlap into something i've not seen but which has already been suggested. If so, forgive me.



Chosen/Terminators/CSMs/Raptors/Havocs: Should be able to appropriate these guys by the undivided traitor legions, with some characteristic veteran skills applied. If taking these undivided veteran skills, should not be able to mark with the four powers, obv.


Dread: If a dread gets demonic posession, it ceases being a nutjob? (Maybe the case already, sorry been out of the game a while - correct me if need be).


Plague Marines: These guys are already great, but I like the idea someone raised of them being able to "spread the plague" a bit better. It would be OP to give them all a plague spreading weapon (ie their bolters), but perhaps a special weapon to replace flamer/melta/plasma - Blightcaller or something: flamer template, if touched you must roll your initiative or better or take a wound. The squads are only gifted one of these when they're at sacred number strength?


Thousand Sons: The dust bucket idea was really cool, but they aren't working, and I don't think they'll ever be sorted with a quick fix. They need to be completely reworked from scratch, or a different Tzeencth unit should be designed.

Walking boxes of air should probably have a profile that reflects it: they should be hard to kill (but not because their armour is better, because they, um, don't exist?), be physically weakish, but have potent psychic-based attacks. Here's my proposed profile for them:

WS BS S T W I A LD
4 1 3 4 2 5 1 10

Let me explain:

WS - The magic dust can animate a suit of armour pretty well after 10000 years of practice.
BS - Can't aim a weapon without eyes.
S - Based entirely on their ability to animate a suit of power armour, there's no actual strength.
T - How can you hurt something that isn't there?
W - See T
I - Dust is bloody quick.
A - Obv.
LD - Pile of dust isn't gonna run away.

Inferno bolts is ok I guess, but these guys shouldn't even be holding bolters anymore. How about a flamer or short-range template-based ranged weapon (ie something that doesn't rely on their non-existant BS to hit). I'm thinking along the lines of a doom siren in terms of it being actually wired into their helmet - maybe those Egyptian spire things they have on their helmet already? Allowing them to unleash a psychic wave of pain; fluffwise it's them channelling 10000 years of the psychic agony of disembodied imprisonment. As the TSs are psychically linked, more so than the other legions, it could be interesting to make the weapon more potent the more of them there are in the squad (perhaps with maximum potency at a sacred number strength). In addition, give them a couple of close combat weps each.


Noise Marines: Not sure. I've never really used these guys and don't know how they are now. As with stuff above, give some reason to use a sacred number in squad composition.


Zerkers: These guys are fine, but again build in some sacred number fluff to the composition. Would be cool to see chainaxes again with a slightly better AP than bog standard CCW, rather than power weapons.


Oblits: Huge hardcore monster daemon badasses? T5, nuff said.


Most Vehicles: Don't like that our vehicles are basically loyalist vehicles that are different colours. Could happily lose the predators and vindicators and replace them with more badass defiler type stuff or some LATD type vehicles: something based around a chariot/Ork Battlewagon idea. Rhinos and LRs: just more chaosy demonic stuff and different weaponry.


Bikes: Never liked 'em. Chaos should really have their own versions of speedy attacks. This would be a really good way to integrate more daemony stuff into the list without it becoming a marines and daemons list (which I think would be bad). Bit of a punt but how about smaller-scale deamon walker engines that can be ridden by marines?


Daemons: The way these are now I think is serious fail. They ought to be tied to the marked marines or (a) DP within the army and drawn to the conflict by certain events, rather than deployed. So, for example, you can only take bloodletters if you have a Khorne DP or the same number of 'letters as you do 'zerkers. Then their appearance is tied to (for b'letters) the number of wounds caused in HTH: for every three wounds caused, one 'letter becomes available (but only appear in groups of 5, or 8, or whatever).

So in fluff, this represents their call to the conflict but that they are not subject to the chaos lord's will.

Horrors could be summoned by the use of magic; Daemonettes by...well, dunno for the others, needs work.

IMO Greater Daemons should be removed from the CSM list. As they are now, the fluff is crap, and you'd have to overcomplicate them hugely to accomodate better fluff. And using the GDs of the four powers I think would make the list OP.


Wargear: A good way to distinguish CSMs from the loyalist filth would be to really differentiate the weaponry. In ten thousand years of living in the warp you'd think someone would have been able to harness it into weapons somehow. We should definitely have more powerful but less reliable weapons - making CSM standard weaponry "warp-infused" would be a great way to achieve this. The idea would need a lot of work but as a bog standard example for bolter fire: we'd lose the ability to rapid fire perhaps, but the warp presence within the weapon would give it a longer range than a loyalist bolter hot off the production line.

Could apply this logic to pretty much every weapon in the CSM armoury. Could be tweaked endlessly to make sure it's not OP, and would give us LOADS of differentiation from SMs within a fairly simple framework.


Anyway, sorry about the length, but my boss is off today

Later.

These are ideas i've come up with or extensions of stuff i've read on site. I've not bothered to rewrite anything i've seen already, but some of these things might overlap into something i've not seen but which has already been suggested. If so, forgive me.

Chosen/Terminators/CSMs/Raptors/Havocs: Should be able to appropriate these guys by the undivided traitor legions, with some characteristic veteran skills applied. If taking these undivided veteran skills, should not be able to mark with the four powers, obv.

Agreed

Dread: If a dread gets demonic posession, it ceases being a nutjob? (Maybe the case already, sorry been out of the game a while - correct me if need be).


Plague Marines: These guys are already great, but I like the idea someone raised of them being able to "spread the plague" a bit better. It would be OP to give them all a plague spreading weapon (ie their bolters), but perhaps a special weapon to replace flamer/melta/plasma - Blightcaller or something: flamer template, if touched you must roll your initiative or better or take a wound. The squads are only gifted one of these when they're at sacred number strength?

For their cost, I feel that they should have bolters that wound as if they were a posioned weapon. (Ala 3+ against everything)


Thousand Sons: The dust bucket idea was really cool, but they aren't working, and I don't think they'll ever be sorted with a quick fix. They need to be completely reworked from scratch, or a different Tzeencth unit should be designed.

Walking boxes of air should probably have a profile that reflects it: they should be hard to kill (but not because their armour is better, because they, um, don't exist?), be physically weakish, but have potent psychic-based attacks. Here's my proposed profile for them:

WS BS S T W I A LD
4 1 3 4 2 5 1 10

Let me explain:

WS - The magic dust can animate a suit of armour pretty well after 10000 years of practice.
BS - Can't aim a weapon without eyes.
S - Based entirely on their ability to animate a suit of power armour, there's no actual strength.
T - How can you hurt something that isn't there?
W - See T
I - Dust is bloody quick.
A - Obv.
LD - Pile of dust isn't gonna run away.

Inferno bolts is ok I guess, but these guys shouldn't even be holding bolters anymore. How about a flamer or short-range template-based ranged weapon (ie something that doesn't rely on their non-existant BS to hit). I'm thinking along the lines of a doom siren in terms of it being actually wired into their helmet - maybe those Egyptian spire things they have on their helmet already? Allowing them to unleash a psychic wave of pain; fluffwise it's them channelling 10000 years of the psychic agony of disembodied imprisonment. As the TSs are psychically linked, more so than the other legions, it could be interesting to make the weapon more potent the more of them there are in the squad (perhaps with maximum potency at a sacred number strength). In addition, give them a couple of close combat weps each.

Cant say I agree here. 1kS are supposed to be shooty/magic users and thus should have stats that reflect upon it... not h2h based. I personally would like to see some kind of WBB roll for them based on the fact that if you shoot a wraith in a suit, it would be cool if he fell apart then re-formed. Maybe a 5+?


Noise Marines: Not sure. I've never really used these guys and don't know how they are now. As with stuff above, give some reason to use a sacred number in squad composition.

Dunno how to fix em, but nobody I know uses them anymore. They suffer from the same problem as all the legion marines.... ala being overcost when compared to new dex's.

Zerkers: These guys are fine, but again build in some sacred number fluff to the composition. Would be cool to see chainaxes again with a slightly better AP than bog standard CCW, rather than power weapons.

Agreed, bring back the chain ax's!!

Oblits: Huge hardcore monster daemon badasses? T5, nuff said.

Agreed and dont increase the cost.


Most Vehicles: Don't like that our vehicles are basically loyalist vehicles that are different colours. Could happily lose the predators and vindicators and replace them with more badass defiler type stuff or some LATD type vehicles: something based around a chariot/Ork Battlewagon idea. Rhinos and LRs: just more chaosy demonic stuff and different weaponry.


Bikes: Never liked 'em. Chaos should really have their own versions of speedy attacks. This would be a really good way to integrate more daemony stuff into the list without it becoming a marines and daemons list (which I think would be bad). Bit of a punt but how about smaller-scale deamon walker engines that can be ridden by marines?
Bikes have a place, but I concure that more options wouldnt hurt here.

Daemons: The way these are now I think is serious fail. They ought to be tied to the marked marines or (a) DP within the army and drawn to the conflict by certain events, rather than deployed. So, for example, you can only take bloodletters if you have a Khorne DP or the same number of 'letters as you do 'zerkers. Then their appearance is tied to (for b'letters) the number of wounds caused in HTH: for every three wounds caused, one 'letter becomes available (but only appear in groups of 5, or 8, or whatever).

So in fluff, this represents their call to the conflict but that they are not subject to the chaos lord's will.

Horrors could be summoned by the use of magic; Daemonettes by...well, dunno for the others, needs work.

IMO Greater Daemons should be removed from the CSM list. As they are now, the fluff is crap, and you'd have to overcomplicate them hugely to accomodate better fluff. And using the GDs of the four powers I think would make the list OP.

Agree/disagree. Current One are complete and utter fail in the current dex and need to be re-worked. However I feel that the GD has a place in the dex. Basically bring back the options from the last dex and call it good in my eyes.


Wargear: A good way to distinguish CSMs from the loyalist filth would be to really differentiate the weaponry. In ten thousand years of living in the warp you'd think someone would have been able to harness it into weapons somehow. We should definitely have more powerful but less reliable weapons - making CSM standard weaponry "warp-infused" would be a great way to achieve this. The idea would need a lot of work but as a bog standard example for bolter fire: we'd lose the ability to rapid fire perhaps, but the warp presence within the weapon would give it a longer range than a loyalist bolter hot off the production line.

Could apply this logic to pretty much every weapon in the CSM armoury. Could be tweaked endlessly to make sure it's not OP, and would give us LOADS of differentiation from SMs within a fairly simple framework.

Agreed. Long story short, re-work the costs from the last dex and bring them in line with current dex's and problem solved. I still cannot fathom wtf they were thinking when they nerfed/took away everything cool from the CSM dex only to put out OTT marine dex's.

For their cost, I feel that they should have bolters that wound as if they were a posioned weapon. (Ala 3+ against everything)

Yeah...I guess we'd all just rather have non-OP but well-priced units. None of the cult marines really fit in this category for now.

Cant say I agree here. 1kS are supposed to be shooty/magic users and thus should have stats that reflect upon it... not h2h based. I personally would like to see some kind of WBB roll for them based on the fact that if you shoot a wraith in a suit, it would be cool if he fell apart then re-formed. Maybe a 5+?

As they are, they suck, and not just because they're too expensive. They offer nothing you can't get cheaper and with more efficiency elsewhere (same goes for noise marines really) and there's no good reason to use them. Thus I would love to see thier purpose completely reworked.

They should totally be magicky but just tossing a sorcerer in the squad and giving them inferno bolts doesn't cut it imo. We agree they should be hard to kill, and I like your WBB idea, but I don't think it's enough.

Agree/disagree. Current One are complete and utter fail in the current dex and need to be re-worked. However I feel that the GD has a place in the dex. Basically bring back the options from the last dex and call it good in my eyes.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind if GDs were left in, but if it came down to a choice of better options on DPs or GDs being left in, i'd choose the DP option any old time.

I still cannot fathom wtf they were thinking when they nerfed/took away everything cool from the CSM dex only to put out OTT marine dex's.

Amen.

I think the biggest problem that CSM have isn't with their book per se, but with the whole way that Chaos is structured (in fantasy as well as 40k)

What should happen for 40k is that Chaos should get 3 books - CSM, Daemons and LatD.

In every piece of fluff ever written about Chaos its all down to individual champions who attract the favour of god(s) and this increases their mortal power at the cost of their souls. Therefore the general should be the most important part of any Chaos army and their followers should reflect their beliefs.

How this would work in practice is that you would pick an HQ choice as your general from any of the 3 chaos codices. They would count as your compulsary HQ choice and you would have to pick your compulsary troops from the same 'dex. If you want a second HQ choice it could come from any 'dex but could not have a Ld value higher than the general. The rest of the FOC slots can be filled from anywhere, but you could not have more allied selections than core.

For example you could have a compulsary HQ and 2 troops from Daemons, an extra HS from Daemons (total 4) and ally 2 LatD FA choices and a CSM elites (total 3). This would be allowed and you could even have an extra Latd or CSM choice but no more than that.

The other element comes from your general's patron. They must have a mark and if this mark is from a greater power (Khorne, Slaanesh, Nurgle, Tzeentch) then evrything in the army must be EITHER the same mark OR have the mark of Chaos Undivided OR be unmarked. If the general has the mark of Chaos Undivided they represent a rare individual who has risen to great power without the sponsorship of one particular power. Units in the army may have any mark or be unmarked.

Needless to say this would make the cost of mark of Chaos Undivided expensive for the general but would also mean it is a genuine choice.

This ruleset would allow any player to create any Chaos army they choose and be true to the background in each and every case.

The current chaos codex is not too bad from a balance point of view. It lacks however, a large X factor that puts in the same tier as other books. The current chaos book is basically marines with no ATSKNF, no shiny equipment and no daemonic upgrades to make up for it (and I don’t thing Oblits and Defilers make up for it). I propose the addition of a few extra upgrades/options which could easily be introduced in White Dwarf or in a PDF document (which will never happen lol).

Daemon Prince: More options besides psychic powers. I’m thinking that some of the lesser daemonic gifts from the previous book such as Daemonic Visage (-1 enemy leadership) and daemonic talons (rending) would be cool. Also I feel the daemonic speed (move as cavalry) upgrade should be included as a movement upgrade option besides wings (for all those players who didn’t put wings on their prince or gave them spider legs).

Daemon Weapons: Re-design the current daemon weapons because at the moment they are too unbalanced. Personally I am dancing around the idea of the Khorne weapon giving a flat out 2-3 extra attacks or furious charge rather then the current 2d6 weapon. Also allow a lord of any mark to select the generic daemon weapon if they choose.

Master crafted bonus: This needs to be brought back or at the least brought back in the form of a chaosy version (infernally crafted weapon/daemon crafted weapon?).

Retinues: Even if this takes a HQ slot, this should be brought back, even if it is chosen with infiltrators replaced with fearless (or fearless terminators). Also a lord on bike/jump pack = bike/raptors retinue would be good (with suitable balance procedures taken into account).

Mark of Chaos Undivided: Redesign and reintroduce this please for fluffy reasons. I suggest a neutral bonus such as a re-roll of some kind or +1 to WS.

Dreadnaughts: Either add daemonic possession = no crazy dreadnaught or rework the idea of the crazed rule altogether (a previous suggested -/+ to WS and BS on a roll of a 1 or 6 is also good).

Chosen: Allow players to select/pay for abilities besides infiltrators. The Fearless rule will also be good here.

Possessed: Either allow players to choose an upgrade they want or rework the table to be full of actual useful upgrades (statistical bonuses) and go through a turn by turn re-roll system (Ala 3rd Edition. At least with this option, players who get short changed on the table have a possibility of getting something better on the next turn). Also a useful additional upgrade for the possessed champion would be good.

Vehicle Upgrades: Some more chaos stuff here should be included besides havoc launchers and daemonic possession. Most chaos players run bareback vehicles for the reason of lack of options

Fast Attack: Make bikers cheaper to make them viable. Also add some fast attack daemons as used in previous editions (even if it is a generic fast attack daemon)

Cypher and Doomrider: Bring these characters back please. Everyone loved them (which is why they are still being sold). No one likes Lucius or Huron Blackheart except GW.

I made a long post on another forum, but I'm going to summarize it here.

Basically, I'm a bit jealous of ATSKNF and how reliable it makes regular marines. It's unfluffy for CSM to have it though, as they like to save their skins. HOWEVER, they're led by fearsome and brutal chaos lords, so running away = death at the hands of their superiors.

CSM are Ld 9. Aspiring Champions are ld 10 and make the squad stubborn. Chaos lords make whatever squad they join fearless, and at the start of the turn, may make a leadership check to auto-rally one squad in 12" regardless of restrictions [below half, enemy close, etc.]. That squad can move, shoot and assault as normal that turn. Basically he threatens them, and they get back in the fight. I like this system, as it gives "tiers" to the command. Aspiring Champions lead their units better than they would lead themselves, and chaos lords can actually join a terminator squad and not have it run away with them.

Aspiring Champions, all of them, are WS5 to show veteran status. This means you could, if you wanted, shell out for an all-AC terminator squad that was all WS5.

Chosen can choose either Infiltrate/outflank, furious charge, or tank hunters. Weapon options cheaper.

Restore old Fire frenzy/blood rage for dreadnoughts, allow them to replace both bolters with heavy flamers.

Make chaos landraiders come possessed automatically, no reduction in BS, and count as moving 6" less than they do, so they can move 6" and fire all guns, or 12" and fire one + defensive.

Give raptors hit and run and 3 assault weapons back.

Chaos Lords get 4 attacks base [shouldn't have as many attacks as a terminator AC, come on!], S5 base, Daemon weapons still cause a wound on a 1 but you still get to attack with your base number of attacks.

Daemon Princes get 5 attacks base, T6 base. Can use either 2x ccw or a greatweapon [for +1 S]. Khorne princes get preferred enemy and furious charge. Slaanesh ignore difficult terrain and get +1 I. Nurgle get defensive grenades and +1 T. Tzeentch get the +1 invul save and extra psychic power per turn. Come with 1 psychic power for free, buy the second one. Princes cause enemy LD damage within 12". Probably -1 or -2. Can buy 2+ armour save OR wings, not both.

Sorcerers get a 4+ invul save. Tzeentch get 3+. Tzeentch sorcerers give enemy psykers a -1 LD. Any sorcerer can buy a talisman to also give enemy psykers a -1 LD, so Tzeentch sorcerers can cause a -2 total. Make the powers better. Doombolt is d6 auto-hits at S6 AP3. Bolt of Change is a lance weapon. Gift of Chaos is in the shooting phase, 6" range, can be used in cc, not a psychic shooting attack.

Berserkers: Fine as they are, give khorne lords furious charge too though.

Noisemarines: Sonic weapons count as poisoned 4+ S4. Reduce cost.

Plaguemarines: Fine as they are, but a tad expensive. Reduce cost.

Thousand Sons: Lose the invul save, give back 2 wounds. Lose slow and purposeful, gain relentless. Keep their bolters, make all cc attacks power weapons [Eldritch energy], but no charging bonuses [only 1 attack each ever]. Keep cost the same. Reduce cost of Aspiring Sorcerer, don't make him buy a power just pick one.

Bikes - give back +1 attack for chaos bikes.

Spawn - give rending and FNP. Mindless unless within 12" of a character, then they can act normally.

Obliterators - make T4(5) and/or give FNP. Both would be great.

Predator, Vindicator - make equal to SM in cost and equipment.

Possessed - allow champion to take power weapon/fist. Double up the abilities and roll a d3 rather than a d6, and roll it before deployment.

You know what would be fun to see?

GM releases Codex Chaos Space Marines.

It contains rules for a generalist CSM army, focusing heavily on the Black Legion (It's own the coverart and all, possible mirroring a certain Codex: Space Marines, in a disturbing, evil and spiky way.) It contains cults and legions and fun things.

The next month, GW releases Codex: Thousand Sons

The next month GW releases Codex: Word Bearers.

The month after that, Codex: Plague Marines.

Then the month after that, Codex Dark Eldar, Codex Necron, and Codex Tau. All within a week of eachother.

Then! Codex Noisemarines

All rules are troughoutly tested, fun to play with, well designed, and kept updated. The codexes has great coverart, and a good layout.

But if I'm gonna be serious... specialized codexes would be really fun to see. If the space marines could have a black templar, blood angels, grey knights, and space wolves codex, why can't the CSM have their four lousy aspects of chaos? I'd probably regret it if it actually happened though. I dunno. Heh, Codex Plague Marines... if we can't have that, atleast one extra codex pertaining to some fun chaos faction.

Bolt of Change as a Lance would be really nice, Spellbound.

Something that hasnt been brought up very often and I wasnt really aware existed till recently was Defiler variants. There is actually one for each god which I thought was pretty neat. As well as chaos only LR and pretty much everything else thats already been said.

I dont' play CSM, but I can certainly understand the complaints that CSM players have with it. The issue is that it's VANILLA CSM to the max. Give each cult marine squad something special besides an extra USR (Noise Marines get these). Bring back marks, get rid of the stupid Icons.

More legion rules, make the marks of the leaders affect the army, etc. CSM is quite possibly the most boring codex I've ever read.

this has become just a wishlisting thread...
you are all finding the minor problems and quirks with the current codex and fixing them in extreme ways...

t5 and 3+ FNP would be absolutely horridly over powered for plague 'rines, and furious charge makes up for not having khornate axes...


however, i hope for (and basically expect) army upgrades based on HQs (a la bike captain, vulkan, belial, etc) to change up FOC structure//unit abilities...
like cult troops being a 0-1 unless their respective HQ is taken, etc...
or, dare i say it, taking a iron warriors forge guy changing foc to 2 fast and 4 heavies, or, GASP!, bringing back the iron warriors basilisk...

I would love to see more reflection onto the options you take with about everything in the codex.

I would enjoy if the HQ's you picked had a good amount of options along with either a general feel, or go down one of the Chaos gods and have an army that reflected upon that.

This way you are not limited to creating an army of everything, or specializing the army to one god. A good example would be, if I was going with Nurgle I could take things

outside of troops to make my army feel more upon Nurgle, such as a plague dread that has a chemical cannon, or abilities upon whence it is hit within melee combat, or an aura

of plague. Along these guidelines people who want a fluff army would have one, while those who want to take everything still have that option.

This in itself could open up possibilities and more war gear. An example of such would be the standard lord without any marks could take your usual equipment along with

equipment that has been slightly blessed or standard mutations, or you can choose chaos god A and pick up equipment of that such faction, such as if I was going with

Tzeentch I Could center my lord upon using more magical items, armor or I could take Khorne, give him Khorne like weapons along with Khorne special rules.

Once your Lord or sorcerer was taken, you went with undivided or picked a god, your options for going with the one god could reduce the points slightly to choosing that

god since he would be be in the favor of that such god, giving a small reason for actually choosing that god.

I know this isn't the perfect system or many might not like it but the reason why I want to get rid of my chaos is the ability to not enjoy centering my army around certain

gods. Or even have the feel of uniqueness within the units that I am taking. Hopefully with the new codex you can enjoy playing one way or the other without having the

feeling of something bland.

krusty wrote:this has become just a wishlisting thread...
you are all finding the minor problems and quirks with the current codex and fixing them in extreme ways......

No we are not. Most of us are baseing the upgrades on what was and will be competetive in the codex creep that is regular Space Marines

krusty wrote:t5 and 3+ FNP would be absolutely horridly over powered for plague 'rines, and furious charge makes up for not having khornate axes......

Furious charge does NOT make up for the lamesauce Khorn Axes that the current Codex:Spikey Marines has in place. Give us the old ones back exactly as they were!

krusty wrote:however, i hope for (and basically expect) army upgrades based on HQs (a la bike captain, vulkan, belial, etc) to change up FOC structure//unit abilities...
like cult troops being a 0-1 unless their respective HQ is taken, etc...
or, dare i say it, taking a iron warriors forge guy changing foc to 2 fast and 4 heavies, or, GASP!, bringing back the iron warriors basilisk...

So you want Codex:Spikey Marines to become Codex: Emo Space Marines. Where all you have to do is take your SM codex legal models and spray paint them black to make em Chaos. Yea sorry but no. CSM players dont want to play SM. If we did we would be playing SM and not CSM. The old 3.5 system worked wonderful and should NEVER have been removed.

That blue is hard to read by the way.

Also what were the rules for some of the things back then?

TheTrueProtoman wrote:That blue is hard to read by the way.

Also what were the rules for some of the things back then?

It is easier to show, then it is to explain in this case. Behold the glory that was CSM before the bland hammer redux that was 5th Edition:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/24519413/WarHammer-40K-Codex-Chaos-Space-Marines-Newest

Highlights:
* God Specific Units
* God Specific Rules
* Daemons that actually have God Specific Rules
* Several CSM armies had seperate army lists/builds
* Mutations
* Gifts
* Wargear that isnt Bland Gear or better known as Spinky cut copy paste redux from Space Marines Dex
* Better Fluff
* Better Rules
* Just all around better in every way then the POS we have now.

This is what we had.... and the current dex is what replaced it. Can you see why so many CSM players dislike GW now?

jp400 wrote:

TheTrueProtoman wrote:That blue is hard to read by the way.

Also what were the rules for some of the things back then?

It is easier to show, then it is to explain in this case. Behold the glory that was CSM before the bland hammer redux that was 5th Edition:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/24519413/WarHammer-40K-Codex-Chaos-Space-Marines-Newest

Highlights:
* God Specific Units
* God Specific Rules
* Daemons that actually have God Specific Rules
* Several CSM armies had seperate army lists/builds
* Mutations
* Gifts
* Wargear that isnt Bland Gear or better known as Spinky cut copy paste redux from Space Marines Dex
* Better Fluff
* Better Rules
* Just all around better in every way then the POS we have now.

This is what we had.... and the current dex is what replaced it. Can you see why so many CSM players dislike GW now?

Yup, reading through that really highlights what a steaming pile of turd our current book is. What a shame. Hopefully they won't screw up so badly with version 5.

I know several people around my parts that play Chaos and straight up refuse to use the new codex. I cannot blame them.

Damn, the previous codex is exactly what I wanted the new codex to be like. Man I knew the new codex was super bland but damn, the amount of options you had before was insane compared to what it is now.

First of all I think there have been some great ideas tossed around and I agree or at least like a lot of them.

Some things I wouldnt mind seeing....
Since DeathGuard were supposed to be supeior trained with bolter weapons how about they get access to a H-bolter and can upgrade all bolters to twinlinked bolters. plauge knifes would be nice to but you cant have everything.
T-sons should have access to a SINGLE reaper autocannon. They would kick butt.
Zerkers need more CCW options, hand flamers and inferno pistols sound nice(hahaha), and Chainaxes that are -1 to all armor saves(whoever came up with this idea hit it right on the head).
Noise marines.. Well only thing off the top of my head is mabye alow the squad another doom siren, or drop the price on sonic blasters a few points.

Free champs for God numbered squads.

Summoned deamons.. well I think for the CSM dex you should only be able to summon the lesser deamons of CD. But if you do get Greater Deamons, I no longer want to have to kill a guy to get it on the table.
Wouldnt mind seeing the Soul Grinder added.

Veicals. God spesific upgrades would be nice if you take a Single Cult army I think. Something for even our basic rhinos.. mabye extra armor goes back to adding a point of armor value(front only, not all around), some sort of assault veical other than the land raider(im thinking Zerkers only) something like a Chimera(points wise) but with an assault ramp and one less weapon. So say a 60 point veical, fast, assault ramp,smokelaunchers, reaper autocannon.

Basic CSM, go back to 3.5 flavor. I really hate that I can no longer really feild my WordBearers(fluffy wise) or Iron Warriors or any of the other Non-God spesific chaos armys.

In a perfect world I would like to see the new Dex be a mix of the fluffy and varied of 3.5 but leave the options of the sortof vanilla chaos of 4. Some people like the feel of the new dex and I wouldnt want that taken away from them.

TheTrueProtoman wrote:Damn, the previous codex is exactly what I wanted the new codex to be like. Man I knew the new codex was super bland but damn, the amount of options you had before was insane compared to what it is now.

Yup. The previous codex is what 90% of chaos players want in a codex. Just update the rules and point costs, throw in some new stuff and BAM! Instant success!

The biggest argument against it, is that the 3.5 dex is "Overpowered". All I have to do, is look at the latest SM dex's that GW puts out and this argument falls apart.

Its bugging me that ahriman has only few spells compared to tigurius who ever he is and he doesnt have any SM spells(not a single one) thousand sons are weak in CC but the BS is too weak cuz they are depending on it so it should be at least 3.