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I would like more variation but some of the concerns seem to be to op csm. I have never had to many problems winning tourneys from local to cons with them. My only problem is lack of flexibility.

HBMC:

Chaos Vehicle Upgrades-

Tz = -1 on the damage charts
Kh = Deff rolla equivalent
Ng = Vehicle gets 5+ save vs shooting
Sl = -2 LD Tank shock
MoCU = Make all Chaos Rhino's Open Topped or have the option.

-- Restrict the Lash to a Legion dex only.
-- Make the cult Marines a 0-1 choice each, thus forcing a more fluffy Black Legion army if you are going to claim that that's why Slaanesh is in league with Nurgle for example. Fluff for this would be "if one god's too strong, they'd break off or try to rebel"
-- Do SOMETHING with thousand sons, not sure what. Maybe just reduce their prices, or like someone else said, make the Sorceror be able to buff the whole unit.

For the legion codex:
-- Let you summon daemons of your particular god.

changes I'd like to see, and I don't care if some have been stated before.

1) Better 1ksons. Making the sorceror improve his unit is a GREAT way to do this. Casting warp time so that they re-roll hit and wound rolls? That makes them VERY deadly, and they become better than just basic marines when dealing with terminators, and very deadly to certain MCs too.

2) God-specific daemons

3) Random dreads are fine, but I'd like benefits as well as penalties. The old rule of shoot the closest enemy, or friend if they couldn't see any or were out of range was fine. And if they were unable to shoot, treat it as blood rage instead [instead of just normal], and bring blood frenzy's doubling attacks back! Make it worthwhile!

4) Don't make possession reduce BS, just ignore shaken and stunned. It's an UPGRADE, why does every upgrade for chaos have to have some drawback?

5) Chaos landraider gain the 12-slot transport capacity, still go without machine spirit, but also reduced points cost.

6) Chaos lords make any squad they join fearless.

7) Abaddon regains mastery over his sword, and one terminator squad in his army takes up no force org and is WS5 at some slight increase in points - but he can't leave the squad. Also, the unit he joins is fearless and anyone in his army rerolls all leadership checks - so they don't fail and piss him off.

8) Lucius gets martial pride back, and a daemon weapon.

9) Vehicle god-specific upgrades.

10) Spawn that don't suck [increase squad size limit, give them rending, give them some kind of save, allow outflank, something]

11) Possessed that roll multiple times on their chart, BEFORE deployment, or allow you to pick and choose at a points cost like before.

12) princes need more options, like daemon weapons. Lords should buff the army in different ways depending on purchasable abilities and/or their marks, in addition to making squads they join fearless like stated above - meanwhile, princes don't buff the army, but are combat powerhouses.

13) Poisoned ccw for plaguemarines, bring their plagueknives back!

14) Allow multiple berserkers to upgrade to power weapons instead of just the champion. Or at least berserker chosen.

15) Raptors points reduction, or give them back some sort of special rule - hit and run, DS and assault, reduce enemy LD, Furious Charge, 3 special weapons, keep the enemy in combat, whatever.

16) Reduce bike cost, give back +1 attack for having a chaos bike [for characters as well]

I guess that's it for now....

LATD.......

They fooled me once. They wont fool me again...

Ludovic wrote:-- Restrict the Lash to a Legion dex only.

How does that make any sense?

As I said on the first page, creating arbitrary restrictions is bad rules writing. Why would a Slaaneshi Sorcerer know Lash in one army but not in another?

If something is so powerful (like Lash) that it cannot be balanced via a points increase, and would be worthless with a capability decrease, then the only option is to remove it completely.

Blah...blah..blah.... What I see allot of whining about fluff, and options. One fluff changes, remember RT? Two, options my bleeding eyes, no one took 90% of the option in 3.5 anyway; cause they were gak!

What your really saying is that you want broken options back: like the infiltrating, 12" charging Daemon Prince blitzing on turn 1. I can't believe that some actually mentioned the IW's taking a Bassie...so broken. I suppose you want elite obliterators back, too?

Guys I play chaos...and I don't want 3.5 back. Bringing back the legions and legion specific options is fine. But what I want is them to fix the broken stuff in the current codex. And when I say broken I mean as in not worth taking. Ie: possessed, dreadnoughts, icons, and generic daemons. I don't want Chaos Daemons rolled into Chaos Marines again, but marked daemons would be nice. The daemons in CSM should still not be as powerful as their CD selves. I'd give the Soul Grinder to CSM though, as its really doesn't fit the theme. CD needs more special characters and more resilient Greater Daemons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Ludovic wrote:-- Restrict the Lash to a Legion dex only.

How does that make any sense?

As I said on the first page, creating arbitrary restrictions is bad rules writing. Why would a Slaaneshi Sorcerer know Lash in one army but not in another?

If something is so powerful (like Lash) that it cannot be balanced via a points increase, and would be worthless with a capability decrease, then the only option is to remove it completely.

Or just decrease the range like with Pavane...done.

Hey Sersi - leave this thread right away. Why? You seem to have missed that this is a "proposed rules" forum. If you're happy with the current rules and don't want to propose any - as is the function of this sub-forum - then leave. No one is forcing you to stay and make suggestions.

And dismissing everyone's opinions as nothing but 'whining' is a borderline flame - I could just as easily claim that your post makes you sound like an idiot with no reading comprehension, but won't, because that's a flame - and if you continue to post in this proposed rules thread without proposing any rules you will be reported to our friendly Asian-woman-pic-posting mod staff.

Understood?

Now leave.

Sersi wrote:Blah...blah..blah.... What I see allot of whining about fluff, and options. One fluff changes, remember RT? Two, options my bleeding eyes, no one took 90% of the option in 3.5 anyway; cause they were gak!

What your really saying is that you want broken options back: like the infiltrating, 12" charging Daemon Prince blitzing on turn 1. I can't believe that some actually mentioned the IW's taking a Bassie...so broken. I suppose you want elite obliterators back, too?

Nice strawman there.

If all you are going to do is put words in our mouths then you can kindly feth off.

Plague marines: Get poisened bolters.
Khorne Berzerkers: Get rending
Thousand son: There bolters can glance anything
Noise marines: Get a 6+ FNP

Then legion upgrades for vehicles, maybe a vehicle for each legion, demons from Codex: Demons.

Sersi wrote:Blah...blah..blah....

Nice... Next time read the entire post before posting and sounding like a donkey-cave. Either Post something constructive and ot or kindly STFU.

Also stop putting words in our mouths

I wish the beserkers had a bit more kick and not so much like a more expensive ork boy lol

Uriels_Flame wrote:
Tz = -1 on the damage charts
Kh = Deff rolla equivalent
Ng = Vehicle gets 5+ save vs shooting
Sl = -2 LD Tank shock
MoCU = Make all Chaos Rhino's Open Topped or have the option.

Great.
Well, open topped Chaos Rhinos would be assault vehicles allowing the mounted unit to charge after disembarking.

I'd consider the following options for Chaos Rhinos with MoCU:
- front AV 12 or
- heavy bolter mounted weapon.

Chaos needs to be much more than just Spikey Marines and since Demons porbably won't show up in the book, they need some sort of meat shield. A troop unit of cultists would be enough imo.

Anung Un Rama wrote:Chaos needs to be much more than just Spikey Marines and since Demons porbably won't show up in the book, they need some sort of meat shield. A troop unit of cultists would be enough imo.

Absolutely.

Cultists and Traitors would be fluffy add-ons.

This is what I would like to see:

Chaos lords that arent terrible, have good options and arent over costed.

Non-generic greater demons.

Chosen that are more than just infiltrating marines.

Dreads that dont shoot at my own forces.

Possessed that have the abilities that I want them too.

Cult terminators

A reason to take standard CSM.

More wargear options for cult marines (I miss the plague swords)

Non-generic demons.

Bikes that have decent options and arent horrendously expensive.

Raptors that have hit and run.

God specific vehicle upgrades.

God specific wargear

Legion specific rules, even in the form of special characters.

Most of the items I would like to get have already been mentioned. But for the sake of completeness one more time ( in no particular order ):

- Non-random Possessed.
- Non-generic deamons.
- Skill options for Chosen ( choose and/or pay one USR? ).
- Clarifying the Dreadnought crazy rule.
- Updated transport capacity for LR
- Drop Pods ( "Dreadclaws" ). Seriously, Pod assaults have been the bread and butter of Astartes since the Great Crusade!
- Cult Terminators.
- Options for Chaos Lords to make units Fearless or Stubborn.
- God specific upgrades for units ( including vehicles ).

Drop Pods ( "Dreadclaws" ). Seriously, Pod assaults have been the bread and butter of Astartes since the Great Crusade!

Drop Pods with FW rules would be awesome.

They land in the enemy's shooting phase so that the enemy can target them but hitting them on 6+ only.

Upon landing, in the CSM player's turn, the mounted units can move, shoot, and charge.

Here's a thought. Add cheap troops like cultists and make CSM better and more expensive than regular Marines.

wuestenfux wrote:

Drop Pods ( "Dreadclaws" ). Seriously, Pod assaults have been the bread and butter of Astartes since the Great Crusade!

Drop Pods with FW rules would be awesome.

They land in the enemy's shooting phase so that the enemy can target them but hitting them on 6+ only.

Upon landing, in the CSM player's turn, the mounted units can move, shoot, and charge.

I like this alot. Seems pretty balanced and fair.

jp400 wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:

Drop Pods ( "Dreadclaws" ). Seriously, Pod assaults have been the bread and butter of Astartes since the Great Crusade!

Drop Pods with FW rules would be awesome.

They land in the enemy's shooting phase so that the enemy can target them but hitting them on 6+ only.

Upon landing, in the CSM player's turn, the mounted units can move, shoot, and charge.

I like this alot. Seems pretty balanced and fair.

These rules are different from the imperial ones.
Think about a unit of Berzerkers able to charge after landing.

These Drop Pods cost about 100 pt.

Yes, it is a nasty combo...

But if that pod gets hit on the way in the squad inside is boned.

wuestenfux wrote:
Well, open topped Chaos Rhinos would be assault vehicles allowing the mounted unit to charge after disembarking.

That was the point

CSM = rhino rush - draw back is it's open topped, even with marines in power armor.

40 points to add Assault ramp to a Rhino. As it stands, many armies can out-CC what is supposed to be an elite CC army. 'zerkers need something, like every third one can buy a power weapon, of they have an option to get another one if they're at 8. Plaguers are the only cult troop that is consistently in line with their cost.

Hmm,
I think Assault Ramps on Rhino's would be a little much.. I think the solution is giveing the Zerkers their balls back ala True ChainAx's and or Rending.

Giving Berzerkers power weapons would make them way to expensive, give them rending and rhinos with an assault ramp for 60pts.

The old chainax rules I still think are the best...... Reduce all saves to a 4+. So chargeing them into a squad of termies 2+ becomes a 4+....... Not that it matters with the flipping over the top storm shields now.

jp400 wrote:The old chainax rules I still think are the best...... Reduce all saves to a 4+. So chargeing them into a squad of termies 2+ becomes a 4+....... Not that it matters with the flipping over the top storm shields now.

Have to diagree here. That mechanic was a Bad Idea(tm). We have a CCW that reduces the effectiveness of the toughest protection ( Terminator armour ) known in the game but somehow magically does nothing to lesser armour ( Scout etc. )? Never did see the logic in that. If you want to recreate Khornate Chain-axes, "Rending" is IMHO the way to go.

More Vehicle upgrades:

Tz = Possessed - Flamers have possessed your vehicle. Add Flamer - may use template anywhere from the vehicle.
Kh = Possessed - Overcharge! Vehicle may Tank Shock a unit within 18" while treating terrain as one less (Dif T = no effect, DT = Dif T) (to be used with Khorne Rolla from above)
Ng = Possessed - Auto Hit Str 3 Poison cloud wounds ALL units within 3" without the Mark of Nurgle
Sl = Possessed - All Morale, LD, Stat tests within 12" are made at -1 (in addition to the -1 for a TS unit from my previous post)

Why not just reduce the save by 1 for chainaxe special rule? Although rough on terminators it's not devastating, and it would make them very tough on other assault troops. They don't need assault ramps imo, but I love the idea of the thousand sons being able to glance anything. I think that would really make them worth their points (finally).

I'm not sure about the noise marine 6+ FNP. What about something like a combined frequency attack that uses the large blast template and has a str based on number of models in the squad with sonic weaponry?