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I'm assuming he's upset that they don't Rage after Land Raiders and Skimmers...

here is what i would like to see:

obliterators 100 points, 2 wounds T5 standard, 5+ inv. standard kit of heavy weapons including non energy weapons. make them markable.

array of demonic weapons.

MoN bears FNP on al bearers, so i can finally have a proper deathguard lord and termies.

possession for dreads

bring back demonic mutation

no stormshields!

dreadclaws

animosity between gods

actual demons

My two cent:
Plague Marines need to get back Plague knives or have some sort of poisoned weapon.
Specialty vehicles: Tired of just seeing Vanilla Landraider for chaos.
Either lower points on Unique chars or give em Eternal warrior. (Typhus shouldn't be that easy to kill, Dammit.)
Be able to bring in alliance with Demons.
I'm sure people are tired of hearing it,but... LATD!!!

didn't they used to have chain axes that limited armour saves to 4+? and that got taken away i'm sure there was something awesome like that years ago

@BAN: "Heavy CCWs" that limit saves to a 4+ were a bad idea, given that 40k doesn't modify AS as a fundamental concept - either you get a save, or you don't. I would be disappointed to see them come back.

Mechanically, "Rending" is about the same in net effect, and more efficient (reduces die rolls).

If KBs require Rending axes at extra cost, similar to how NM pay extra for SBs, I'd be OK with that.

I think they should get rid of lash, buff up tzeentch magic power, slap eternal warrior on typhus, give us a cultist option, and fix possessed.

I think everyone just wants the old chaos codex back

or rather the CHAOS put back into CSM

also bring back all the crazy stuff like chaos androids, beastmen, daemons, GOOD possessed, giant monsters, daemon weapons/guns...etc!!!!!



Automatically Appended Next Post:
oh yea cultists/scouts

Bring back the goodness of previous book, God Rivalries, no nurg/tzeentch armies ffs, actual demons

fix possessed, dreads,

legion rules again given the character you take 'IE Abbaddon is black legion, Kharn is definite world eaters, Huron is Red Corsairs, Typhus is Death guard, Zso Sahaal is Night Lords. :Who doesn't want to see Zso have his own mini!: Eliphas for Word Bearers, etc etc' or just based on the army selection you want, undivided lets you take cult troops but limited variety, God Specific lets you take all of that god no limit

and some tweeks to the bring things up to standard with other armies

Disagree with reinserting the rivalries - we want more options not less.

Fix possessed - roll before or better yet buy your abilities so you can model what you give your guys. WYSIWYG is a good idea for a reason.

Flexibility/variety with Chosen (& just chosen) - infiltrate is great with alphas, but dont suit Iron warriors/word bearers etc. So Im thinking different vet abilities like you used to get (just the one per squad would be enough).

Differentiation on the daemons wouldnt be hard - they used up like 2 pages in the old codex - you dont need more than that. Price accordingly. Alternatively, marks on your lesser daemons for some minor variation.

Oh yeah - more vehicles. We dont need every loyalist tank, but two/three LR's would be nice! Squads of predators.

And give us back the extra attack on the bikers - then they are priced correctly.

I am currently creating a Chaos codex.

It has Rivalry, but how it works is that you can have opposing units, i.e. Slaanesh and Khorne, but if they ever come within 24" of eachother they will try and fight and kill eachother.

It also has a d100 mutation/attribute table with 42 separate mutations. Some can be purchased (like Giant Growth which makes you a monstrous creature or Wings which makes you jump infantry) but some can only be received as part of paying 15 points to roll a d100 (like Flaming Skull Face, and Metal Body).

It is nearing completion. It has not been playtested yet however.

I still have to make Possessed (which get 1 free roll on the d100 table and may pay points to get another 2 rolls), and that's about it actually.

In all the codex has a lot of variation. You can have a Chaos Inquisitor leading Beastmen and Chaos Squats and Renegade Marines, and also have some Rogue IG with Leman Russ support.

Also, I have a quick question: Should Chaos Eldar be able to take the mark of Slaanesh? Just wondering.

If you only have 42 separate mutations, and some are purchasable, how about moving 6 to wargear and the rest to a d66 table?

Hi JHDD,

My reasoning behind this is that you can still attain these by not purchasing them, which makes it cool because squads and daemons that have access to random mutations can still attain them.
(For interest of balance, however, Giant Growth and Metal Body are to be rerolled if they are received by a squad)

Feel free to check out the actual table here:
http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AR9_xneXKfB1ZGNwMmJ2M2ZfMTJkcmRzNjlmYg&hl=en

Hmm..

Seems a little too complex/random. Two things people tend not to like.

Give everything a points value... make it so units/characters can take up to a max of X amount of points... and be done with it.

Just my two cents.

jp400 wrote:Hmm..

Seems a little too complex/random. Two things people tend not to like.

Give everything a points value... make it so units/characters can take up to a max of X amount of points... and be done with it.

Just my two cents.

Most units can only buy 2 attributes, Heroes can purchase up to 5 attributes, and then may purchase randoms after that, but the sum of the randoms and the chosen attributes must equal their sacred number or less. So for example a Nurgle Marine Champion can purchase up to 5 attributes. Let's say he takes Giant Growth, Extremely Fat, and Spits Acid, Agile, and Additional Arms, and then can purchase up to 2 randoms. Or he can take 7 randoms if he wants!


In the end, though, the table is really more for casual play as, I agree, it's a little complex.
Again though, there are attributes that you can purchase that aren't random, and that is more intended for tournament play where players like to know what they're going to get

Even then, you're not forced to use the table, at all. If you want, you don't even have to use Chaotic attributes.

Thanks,
Vlad

I came up with something recently that could diversify vehicles a bit: Marks on vehicles. Mabye something like this:

MoK: +1 Attack for walkers, +1 on a ramming roll for everything else.
MoN: +1 to the Front, side, and rear armor (to a maximum of 14)
MoS: Make the vehicle fast.
MoT: Vehicle always counts as concealed. (4+ cover)

Some of these might be a bit OP, anyone else want to take a crack at it?

+1AV is way too good for MoN, plus, it doesn't work on Land Raiders.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

jp400 wrote:Hmm..

Seems a little too complex/random. Two things people tend not to like.

Give everything a points value... make it so units/characters can take up to a max of X amount of points... and be done with it.

Just my two cents.

Most units can only buy 2 attributes, Heroes can purchase up to 5 attributes, and then may purchase randoms after that, but the sum of the randoms and the chosen attributes must equal their sacred number or less. So for example a Nurgle Marine Champion can purchase up to 5 attributes. Let's say he takes Giant Growth, Extremely Fat, and Spits Acid, Agile, and Additional Arms, and then can purchase up to 2 randoms. Or he can take 7 randoms if he wants!


In the end, though, the table is really more for casual play as, I agree, it's a little complex.
Again though, there are attributes that you can purchase that aren't random, and that is more intended for tournament play where players like to know what they're going to get

Even then, you're not forced to use the table, at all. If you want, you don't even have to use Chaotic attributes.

Thanks,
Vlad

Is there a chance of spawndom if you have a large number of rolls on the mutation table?

As for a new Chaos codex. One word: CYPHER. Why the hell was he taken out? He is the best drawn character in all of 40k, the one guy that GW's whole smoke and mirrors/ 10000 year haze style really suits. And it opened up the whole other side of chaos, a dangerous, but potentially benevolent one. Now, he is just a footnote and the forces of chaos are known more for their accessorizing than their motivations.

Silverthorne wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:

jp400 wrote:Hmm..

Seems a little too complex/random. Two things people tend not to like.

Give everything a points value... make it so units/characters can take up to a max of X amount of points... and be done with it.

Just my two cents.

Most units can only buy 2 attributes, Heroes can purchase up to 5 attributes, and then may purchase randoms after that, but the sum of the randoms and the chosen attributes must equal their sacred number or less. So for example a Nurgle Marine Champion can purchase up to 5 attributes. Let's say he takes Giant Growth, Extremely Fat, and Spits Acid, Agile, and Additional Arms, and then can purchase up to 2 randoms. Or he can take 7 randoms if he wants!


In the end, though, the table is really more for casual play as, I agree, it's a little complex.
Again though, there are attributes that you can purchase that aren't random, and that is more intended for tournament play where players like to know what they're going to get

Even then, you're not forced to use the table, at all. If you want, you don't even have to use Chaotic attributes.

Thanks,
Vlad

Is there a chance of spawndom if you have a large number of rolls on the mutation table?

You can only have attributes up to your sacred number. I was toying with the idea that if you go above that, you take a LD test every turn, and if you fail it, then you become a Spawn.

As for a new Chaos codex. One word: CYPHER. Why the hell was he taken out? He is the best drawn character in all of 40k, the one guy that GW's whole smoke and mirrors/ 10000 year haze style really suits. And it opened up the whole other side of chaos, a dangerous, but potentially benevolent one. Now, he is just a footnote and the forces of chaos are known more for their accessorizing than their motivations.

I agree completely. Here are my trial rules for him. No points yet but he is really sick.

Cypher
............... WS... BS... S..... T...... W..... I...... A..... LD.... SV..........Points
Cypher..... 6...... 8...... 4..... 4...... 3...... 6...... 3...... 10.... 3+/4++...160+
• Unit Composition: Cypher
• Weapons and Wargear: Master Crafted Plasma Pistol, Master Crafted Bolt Pistol, C'tan Phase Knife
• Special Rules: Always an Independent Character, Fearless, 4+ invulnerable save, Eternal Warrior
C'tan Phase Knife: Ignores armor and invulnerable saves except against C'tan

Fallen Angels: Cypher and Fallen Angels gets Preferred Enemy: Dark Angels, likewise, Dark Angels get Preferred Enemy: Cypher and Fallen Angels. In addition, Cypher may take a retinue of Chosen which are considered "Fallen Angels". These Chosen may not take a Mark of Chaos.

Uncatchable: If Cypher is ever eliminated, roll 3d6. On a 4+, he is not considered worth any VP's or KP's


I have not added Special Characters to the codex yet as they are still being tested. (If you think Abaddon is crazy now...he is a pure monster. I am considering making him have to be in an army of 2,000 points or more as he is ridiculous!)

Here it is: This is what I want for Codex: Chaos 5th edition!

http://www.mediafire.com/?ozoiymd0zd2

:edit: Aaaand I already noticed a typo. The table is d66, not d100. My bad.

Cypher is awesome, I like that you gave him his phase knife. I don't know if I would make him fearless though. In fact, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't, just LD 10.

I didn't download the test codex, but is there a reason behind not giving him ATSNKF? I think that, and a high leadership, maybe even just an average one, like 8 or 9, would be better than Fearless from a background perspective.

Also, how are you working out his pistols firing? Separate profiles, twin-linking, a new combined profile, or a gunslinger special rule? I've seen all approaches in the past.

I like giving him an 18 inch range with his pistols, and then a special attack value and weapon type.

Special Rule- Gunslinger

Cypher is the most skilled pistol marksman in the galaxy. Virtually every type of foe, from noble Terminator to foul Star God has fallen victim to his deadly craft. When Cypher fires his pistols, you allocate the wounds caused by his shooting, not the other player. In addition, no cover saves may be taken against shots from Cypher.

Cypher's pistols-- Unique Weapon.
R 18" Strength 6 AP 2 Assault 3
Cypher's pistols always wound on a 2+, regardless of toughness. On a to-wound roll of a 6, Cypher inflicts a headshot, causing Instant Death.

I would add these, and drop Eternal Warrior, take him to two wounds, reduce his WS to 4 or 5, loose fearless, make him LD 9, and allow him to forfeit all of his attacks to make an immediate Hit and Run attempt before the start of any combat. Also, I would give him a rule that makes any unit he was attached to count as a retinue, so he can never be singled out, as I think that best represents why he is so hard to kill.

Get rid of "bolter, bolt pistol, AND close combat weapon" for basic Marines, unless you're including it in Codex Space Marines. For Space Wolves, it makes sense. Until basic Marines get close combat weapons, there's no reason that Chaos Marines should have them at fewer points, and a higher leadership.

I fail to see how it makes since for other Imperial Marines but not for Chaos, 10000 year old veterans from an ancient war. Chaos Marines also miss out on a few little gems called 'Combat Squads' or 'hey, now I have twice as many scoring units, but still only 1 if it is a kill point mission!', 'Combat Tactics' which is amazing, or 'And They Shall Not Know Fear' which is a way more useful version of Fearless.

Silverthorne wrote:I fail to see how it makes since for other Imperial Marines but not for Chaos, 10000 year old veterans from an ancient war. Chaos Marines also miss out on a few little gems called 'Combat Squads' or 'hey, now I have twice as many scoring units, but still only 1 if it is a kill point mission!', 'Combat Tactics' which is amazing, or 'And They Shall Not Know Fear' which is a way more useful version of Fearless.

Chaos Marines should be allowed to combat squad. ATSKNF is offset by the increased leadership of CSM vs. regular Marines. They're less likely to run, but when they do, they really run.

In regards to "Combat Tactics", I don't really think it's "amazing" per se, but it can, in very specific circumstances, be useful. You could justify the lack of combat tactics by the fact that Space Marines are an organized, disciplined force whereas CSM are more of an ultraviolent, selfserving mob of veterans. Individually, they might be braver, but they don't spend as much time practicing strategic approaches to fighting. In other words, they're brave, but prefer to fight in a chaotic fashion.

Well, combat tactics could be an achievement of Index Astartes.
So CSM are unaware of this tactics.

CSM are often fearless or can take the IoGC which is a counterpart to 'And They Shall Not Know Fear'.

Silverthorne wrote:Cypher is awesome, I like that you gave him his phase knife. I don't know if I would make him fearless though. In fact, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't, just LD 10.

I didn't download the test codex, but is there a reason behind not giving him ATSNKF? I think that, and a high leadership, maybe even just an average one, like 8 or 9, would be better than Fearless from a background perspective.

So let's say LD9 and ATSKNF? Sounds good to me. I'm not too familiar with Cypher but he is one of the coolest characters out there!


Also, how are you working out his pistols firing? Separate profiles, twin-linking, a new combined profile, or a gunslinger special rule? I've seen all approaches in the past.

I like giving him an 18 inch range with his pistols, and then a special attack value and weapon type.

Special Rule- Gunslinger

Cypher is the most skilled pistol marksman in the galaxy. Virtually every type of foe, from noble Terminator to foul Star God has fallen victim to his deadly craft. When Cypher fires his pistols, you allocate the wounds caused by his shooting, not the other player. In addition, no cover saves may be taken against shots from Cypher.

Lord-Loss wrote:A thread discussing what we want in CSM codex 5th edition.

I want legion rules,

Meh, I guess that would be nice, though not needed.

none crazy dreads,

I actually like Dreads the way they are, it makes you have to think about where you put them.

plague marines should get a 3+ FNP,

*Facepalm* They are already too hard to kill....

khorne berzerkers need rending,

Again, meh, not needed.

thousand son need to be replaced with a better tzeench cult troop,

Thousand Sons are good, it's Noise Marines that need replacing/revising.

some LR variations,

Another meh, not needed.

vehicles which are unique to chaos,

You mean like this?

DEFILER HURRR!

cheaper marks,

Yeah, because 10points cheaper would make a lot of difference...

better special characters,

Special Characters are good, if used right, I mean Abaddon? yeah...

better phkyic(spel?)powers.

We have good psychic abilities. Warptime? Doombolt? Bolt of Change? Wind of Chaos? Those are awesome.


You HAVE seen the CSM 'dex, right? Seems to me like anyone who has would not "dismiss" the Defiler. OR say we have sucky psychic stuff. I know a lot of people complain about all above things, you aren't the first person, but the current CSM 'dex isn't as bad as everyone seems to think it is. They are already very competitive. I mean, Plague Marines? I cannot tell how many people hate those, even without your proposed 3+ FNP. The thing the CSM dex really needs is Possesed actually worth taking, better Spawn, Noise Marines that are worth taking (not just for fluff's sake), and god-specific rules for Summoned Daemons.

I don't think it's the competitive side.
It's more like... you look at 3.5 and then you look at 4.0...huge fething difference at least in flavor.

Possessed don't need to change much, they are just a bit over-priced.

Spawn: are meh, just overpriced.

Defiler: I think the problem is the lack of a mutated hull option. Huge ass model + Av 12 is a put off.

I liked the 3.5 crazy table more than the 4.0. It was something GW did not need to touch IMO.

Thousand Sons would be borderline decent, if it were not 5th edition...but since it is, I think the NM's pull ahead of the Dust Buckets, just cause weight of fire is prob. more flexible than just AP3.

Wait wait, NO LEGION RULES?!?!?

I don't know if you were around for 3.5, I know I wasn't, but just reading through the damn thing lets us know what we missed.

We don't have a Codex CSM, we have codex Spiky Marines.

It has nothing to do with competitiveness, it's about what made the Old Codex so damn great.

I want the Essence of Chaos back in the damn codex. I want God Specific Daemons, I want Chaos Rivalries, I want mutation Tables, I want more interesting Marks (Oh look, Jack's dead, I guess we don't worship Nurgle anymore) I want better Thousand Sons, I want Plague Knives, I want to see mutation tables for Vehicles.

I can go on all day, but we all know what we want. Not just options. The very soul of the Traitor Legions was taken out. I simply want it back.

What about non-god legions like the alpha legion, cults are good but they need more sneaky rules like infiltrate, scout, and outflank.

That as well. Alpha Legion, Night Lords, Iron Warriors and undivided friends need rules too.

Cryonicleech wrote:Wait wait, NO LEGION RULES?!?!?

I covered that in another thread.

- A Marked Lord (in Power Armor) makes Chosen with the same Mark Troops
- A Marked Lord in Terminator Armor makes Terminators with the same Mark Scoring
- A Marked Lord on a Bike makes Bikers with the same Mark Scoring
- A Marked Lord with a Jump Pack makes Raptors with the same Mark Scoring

- A Marked Daemon Prince allows Lesser Daemons to buy an Icon of the same Mark
- A Marked Daemon Prince with Wings allows Lesser Daemons to buy an Icon of the same Mark if they also buy Wings for +XX pts/unit

- A Marked Sorceror makes Possessed of the same Mark Scoring and lets them choose their power

- Kharne (and *only* Kharne) makes KBs Troops
- Ahriman (and *only* Ahriman) makes TS Troops
- Typhus (and *only* Typhus) makes PM Troops (but *not* MoN Termies)
- Lucius (and *only* Lucius) makes NM Troops

- Abbadon makes *all* Infantry (and Jump Infantry) Scoring