Who do you want to win: Chapterhouse or GW?

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**Polonius**

LittleLeadMen wrote:I'm not upset, per se, nor overly emotional invested. From a purely personal standpoint, I just have found CHapterhouse to come across as fairly arrogant, and obnoxious, while knowing they were close to, or over, the IP "line".

I work in entertainment, film & television. I'm a strong proponent of intellectual property rights, as I believe that all human beings have a right to create original works and have those rights reserved and protected. Creators also have the fundamental moral property right to benefit financially from their risk, work, and act of creation.

Regardless of what you think of GW, I personally know many of those people, and I personally know that they work very hard to create this product. They're not perfect, by any measure. They also make plenty of odd business and marketing decisions, decisions that I wouldn't make if I were i charge (a little back seat driving, arm chair quarterbacking, if you will).

But as far as I'm concerned, they just sell toys, so it's really not that big of a deal. Yet day in and day out, I visit my toy soldier sites for a little diversion and I constantly come across tons of ridiculous vitriol for GW. Minor complaints get elevated to uncalled for levels. Frankly, the more I play 40k (and I've played since the early 90's), the more I hate 40k players in general. By in large they're whiny and they're cheap.

This is, of course, a gross exaggeration. But there's a core truth to it. I'm always surprised by the cynicism, anger, and flat out weirdness of people regarding.... toys.

When it comes to this specific lawsuit, as an entertainment person who is deeply committed to intellectual property rights (member of the California Copyright Conference, for example), I dislike it when people use other people's creations for profit. And in some ways, I can accept it when it happens, maybe on a small level for private use. But when the offending party is so blatant, and unrepentant, it bugs me a bit. I'm not angry, but I have to admit I find some pleasure in the idea of Chapterhouse finally getting shut down for infringement.

If you want to be creative, run your own business. Make your own game. Make your own sculpts, etc. And if you really exist just to service the needs of a preexisting game, get a license. And if that can't happen, and you STILL want to tread into the IP danger zone, don't be an obnoxious git about it. Do it quietly, name things safely, etc.

That's where I'm coming from on this.

Except, Chapterhouse are making their own sculpts. I mean, the worst you can accuse them of doing is making stuff that fits into the GW IP. I haven't scoured their website for everything they make, but nothing they sell isn't an original work done in a similar style. They avoid all the big logos and symbols.

So again, do you think GW was hurt in anyway? Would you have a problem with them if they made the exact same product line but labelled everything generically? "Celtic sci-fi" "Bloody Crows" etc?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

NELS1031 wrote:
Polonius wrote:Which is one of the reasons many of us opposed the idea of a binary poll. I think that outside of the labeling, chapterhouse was in the clear. And even then, was anybody actually confused by the labeling? Were people buying that stuff thinking it was official?

I can guarantee there are folks out there that could get confused. Its easy for us to know the difference, as this is our hobby, but to a regular non-hobbyist its all the same, I bet. If I had a dollar every time someone brought in a POS knockoff/offbrand dirtbike or scooter into my motorcycle shop and thought it was a name brand bike, I could buy CH and probably pay these upcoming legal fees. It can be confusing to someone who has no product knowledge or is new to the industry.

I don't doubt that. But do you think it's actually happened? Do you think somebody really bought Chapterhouse stuff thinking it was GW product?

Polonius wrote:I'm equally surprised at how emotionally invested so many people appear to be in arguing against CH. The legal matter will be resolved on its own, but from a fairness or ethical standpoint, I'm really not sure how what Chapterhouse did actually hurt anybody. Nobody got ripped off, even GW admits in it's complaint that monetary damages can't be ascribed. So, outside of the technical legal aspect, what is really the problem? Why so upset?

The Chapterhouse guy that posts here can come off as a douche to some folks, from what I gather. My only personal beef is that most of their stuff is of questionable quality/artistic ability. But I've bought from them before all the same. Plus GW is most often times portrayed (sometimes rightfully so) as the big bad corporation, and fans of the brand feel the need to defend it. I find myself doing it from time to time, but I try to be reasonable about it. In this case, I feel they are right. Plus it can be fun!

So, basically everybody gets to let their inner fanboi out a little? I guess that makes sense.

**mrblacksunshine_1978**

LittleLeadMen wrote:
Amaya wrote:
Mr Mystery wrote:Name one.

Every form of religious heresy ever?

Nice try- except Chapterhouse didn't market their items as a religious heresy model. They sold "Pre Heresy Thousand Sons Terminator Shoulderpads", for example. There is no way that they have the right to do this without a license, as only GW would have the legal right to sell such a named product.

Chapterhouse has been doing this over, and over, and over again. They knew where the line was, and conscientiously stepped over it.

Frankly, I'm really surprised that this is so hard for so many gamers to recognize. The fact that 2/3rds of the survey people favor Chapterhouse is really shocking to me.

You can sell little resin bit with scarabs on them all day. Maybe they are actionable, maybe not. That's for a judge to decide. But you blatantly step over the line into "sue me" territory when you sell a product as Chapterhouse has.

Can you sell "Scarab Shoulder Pads"? Probably. Can you sell "Pre Heresy Thousand Sons Terminator Shoulder Pads"? Not unless you have the legal rights to "Horus Heresy", "Pre-Heresy", "Thousand Sons", "Terminators". Depending on how thorough GW was will probably determine how this gets decided. But GW is fairly thorough with their IP and registering it (trademarks, copyrights, artwork, written material, etc).

It's the use of specific imagery and language that brought this on them.

What so shocking that people that believe that CH should win and GW will lose? So, that make me believe that you enjoy large companies like GW to run your life? What shocking to me is that GW is sticking their foot into their mouths with this case, and make them look really bad.

**nels1031**

Polonius wrote:So, basically everybody gets to let their inner fanboi out a little? I guess that makes sense.

Ya, I'm definitely guilty of that. Within reason obviously. Of course, below we have the other side of the coin.

What so shocking that people that believe that CH should win and GW will lose? So, that make me believe that you enjoy large companies like GW to run your life? What shocking to me is that GW is sticking their foot into their mouths with this case, and make them look really bad.

GW doesn't run my life. I can give up Devlan Mud any time I want. I can.. honestly. <Nervous twitch>

**Mr Mystery**

mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:
LittleLeadMen wrote:
Amaya wrote:
Mr Mystery wrote:Name one.

Every form of religious heresy ever?

Nice try- except Chapterhouse didn't market their items as a religious heresy model. They sold "Pre Heresy Thousand Sons Terminator Shoulderpads", for example. There is no way that they have the right to do this without a license, as only GW would have the legal right to sell such a named product.

Chapterhouse has been doing this over, and over, and over again. They knew where the line was, and conscientiously stepped over it.

Frankly, I'm really surprised that this is so hard for so many gamers to recognize. The fact that 2/3rds of the survey people favor Chapterhouse is really shocking to me.

You can sell little resin bit with scarabs on them all day. Maybe they are actionable, maybe not. That's for a judge to decide. But you blatantly step over the line into "sue me" territory when you sell a product as Chapterhouse has.

Can you sell "Scarab Shoulder Pads"? Probably. Can you sell "Pre Heresy Thousand Sons Terminator Shoulder Pads"? Not unless you have the legal rights to "Horus Heresy", "Pre-Heresy", "Thousand Sons", "Terminators". Depending on how thorough GW was will probably determine how this gets decided. But GW is fairly thorough with their IP and registering it (trademarks, copyrights, artwork, written material, etc).

It's the use of specific imagery and language that brought this on them.

What so shocking that people that believe that CH should win and GW will lose? So, that make me believe that you enjoy large companies like GW to run your life? What shocking to me is that GW is sticking their foot into their mouths with this case, and make them look really bad.

Huh? This makes literally no sense...sounds like me when I've had a few, like there's a few words or sentences thought of, but not tuped.

How is GW 'sticking their foot in their mouth' here? As covered earlier, IP has to be defended if you wish to retain it. GW clearly see CH as a threat to this, and are taking appropriate action. It's not like they've gone all 30's Gangsters and sent the boys round to smash up the production tools is it? And it's not as if CH haven't trod a very fine line either (n.b. note the wording...trod...not crossed. That distinction, again as previously covered is the whole point of this lawsuit).

And how in the name of satan's throbbing portion does supporting a companies right to it's IP quantify as allowing them 'to run your life'?

**Sovereign6**

brettz123 wrote:
Sovereign6 wrote:I'm only reading about this now, and don't know much about Chapter House.

So, what's the difference between Forge World, and the Chapter House? Forge World being backed by GW I'm guessing?

I'd rather have a compromise than one or the others 'winning'
Like mentioned earlier. Why not just change the names and whatnot to what GW likes, or even share some of the profits with GW. I'm sure that would help settle things.

Uhhhhhh Forge World is a part of GW.......

Also GW probably isn't looking to compromise to be honest with you. It is there game and they don't want poor quality add ons by third parties. Why should they share their potential profits with some company who has done none of the leg work they did making 40k what it is?

Hmm. Did I mention I'm new?

I guess that's true as well. Why should they share at all with someone that contributed nothing.
I'd still rather that though. They could make whatever GW hasn't/can't or whatever they don't see as profitable.

I agree with you however, I don't see GW wanting to do that.

**Shibboleth02**

Polonius wrote:Except, Chapterhouse are making their own sculpts. I mean, the worst you can accuse them of doing is making stuff that fits into the GW IP. I haven't scoured their website for everything they make, but nothing they sell isn't an original work done in a similar style. They avoid all the big logos and symbols.

So again, do you think GW was hurt in anyway? Would you have a problem with them if they made the exact same product line but labelled everything generically? "Celtic sci-fi" "Bloody Crows" etc?

I haven't looked at every single product that they've sold. If most of it was generic images, such as scarabs, crows, etc, not that big of a deal. Much of GW's icons are fairly generic. You can't trademark a "U", or the word "Ultramarine", as it is a color. You can, however, have specific combinations protected, such as Ultramarines in Power Armor, that have a specific look to them. As a general rule, the more specific the infringement is, the more actionable. For example, the Khorne symbol is much more specific than a "U" for ultramarines.

If they had simply labelled everything generically, I probably would have less of a problem with it. Of course, that still has to take into account what i just mentioned previously.

As for the sculpting, I disagree that they make their own sculpts. (Yes, technically, they aren't using a prexisting model to add their bits on top of. They sculpt their own object from scratch. It's still IP infringement).

What I was trying to express was the idea that people should make their own products, that stand on their own. There are many miniatures companies that do this. I particularly respect the Malifaux- Weird Minis people for what they've accomplished over the last few years. Chapterhouse isn't a malifaux. They're a GW knockoff.

**nels1031**

satan's throbbing portion

**Mr Mystery**

Sovereign 6...careful with your assertions there skip.

Not having produced a kit, does not equate to not wanting to. I'm sure GW would love to produce anything and everything they've ever conceived of, but sadly things have to be prioritised, with the most useful and volume selling coming first.

**TyraelVladinhurst**

chapterhouse bits are better then FW or GW stuff. GW should just stop throwing a tantrum like a little baby and STFU. i swear if GW wins i'll sell my soul off to see them destroyed

**Mr Mystery**

Obvious Troll is Obvious.

**Polonius**

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

**Sovereign6**

Mr Mystery wrote:Sovereign 6...careful with your assertions there skip.

Not having produced a kit, does not equate to not wanting to. I'm sure GW would love to produce anything and everything they've ever conceived of, but sadly things have to be prioritised, with the most useful and volume selling coming first.

Fair enough, and I edited my post to kind of reflect that.

**Polonius**

Mr Mystery wrote:Sovereign 6...careful with your assertions there skip.

Not having produced a kit, does not equate to not wanting to. I'm sure GW would love to produce anything and everything they've ever conceived of, but sadly things have to be prioritised, with the most useful and volume selling coming first.

Here's my problem with this theory: if a small operation can create something that fills a gap that in any way actually threatens GW, why couldn't GW expand it's capabilities?

Now, the answer is that the quality of sculpting and production are both lower, and given that they work mostly in resin/metal they were limited in economy of scale, but that very limiting factor also means that whatever effect CH is having on GW's brand is also limited.

The jetbike farseer is, for me, the greatest example of GW refusing to take the money from my wallet. I'll never understand why those bits aren't available.

**Shibboleth02**

mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote: What so shocking that people that believe that CH should win and GW will lose? So, that make me believe that you enjoy large companies like GW to run your life? What shocking to me is that GW is sticking their foot into their mouths with this case, and make them look really bad.

This is a great example of the very hyperbole that I wrote about earlier. In no way is GW "running" anyone's life here. They sell toys. Toys that we are all free to purchase, or decline to purchase.

This is what I wrote earlier in this thread:

Regardless of what you think of GW, I personally know many of those people, and I personally know that they work very hard to create this product. They're not perfect, by any measure. They also make plenty of odd business and marketing decisions, decisions that I wouldn't make if I were i charge (a little back seat driving, arm chair quarterbacking, if you will).

But as far as I'm concerned, they just sell toys, so it's really not that big of a deal. Yet day in and day out, I visit my toy soldier sites for a little diversion and I constantly come across tons of ridiculous vitriol for GW. Minor complaints get elevated to uncalled for levels. Frankly, the more I play 40k (and I've played since the early 90's), the more I hate 40k players in general. By in large they're whiny and they're cheap.

This is, of course, a gross exaggeration. But there's a core truth to it. I'm always surprised by the cynicism, anger, and flat out weirdness of people regarding.... toys.

Your post is a great example of what I was referring to. Regardless of how much you like/dislike GW's toys, or marketing, or prices, or whatever... they're just toys. What has brought you to the point that you claim that GW is somehow running our lives? it's so bizarre that I find it very hard to believe that you actually believe what you wrote, that it isn't a purposeful attempt to be "over the top".

But, sadly, I've come across too many gamers like you in real life; enough that I know they do exist.

Do you ever stop and actually consider what you're saying with regard to this toy company and their toys? Because it comes across as ridiculous to posture, and angrily vent in this absurd, demonstrably false way.... over toys.

GW doesn't run anyone's life. They're a company that makes and sells toys, products that they have spent a lot of money, time , and energy creating. As creators of a product, they reserve a moral and legal right to control their creation. Just as all human beings do (or should). That they would seek legal recourse over property infringement is their right. Maybe they'll be successful. Maybe not. But how does seeking legal recourse against a company that makes knockoff products make them "look bad"? I think you have it backwards.

But to get to the place, personally and mentally, that you would engage in such ridiculous hyperbole over how GW runs our lives is just absurd. Thanks for being an example of the exact condition I previously described.

**Kanluwen**

Polonius wrote:
Mr Mystery wrote:Sovereign 6...careful with your assertions there skip.

Not having produced a kit, does not equate to not wanting to. I'm sure GW would love to produce anything and everything they've ever conceived of, but sadly things have to be prioritised, with the most useful and volume selling coming first.

Here's my problem with this theory: if a small operation can create something that fills a gap that in any way actually threatens GW, why couldn't GW expand its capabilities?

Probably because they have an actual overhead and full scale production on some thousands of models to maintain?
Just a hunch.
Bear in mind: I don't think GW sees Chapterhouse as a "threat" to their production capabilities. I'm thinking they just got fed up with CH thumbing their nose at GW in terms of naming the items, etc.

Now, the answer is that the quality of sculpting and production are both lower, and given that they work mostly in resin/metal they were limited in economy of scale, but that very limiting factor also means that whatever effect CH is having on GW's brand is also limited.

Just the fact that the "quality of sculpting is lower" is what bothers me. If you're working in resin, you have the capability to make some of the most crisp and amazing detail possible.

The jetbike farseer is, for me, the greatest example of GW refusing to take the money from my wallet. I'll never understand why those bits aren't available.

Presumably because the Jetbike is going to be completely redone, along with several of the "old" kits associated with the Craftworld Eldar, when the next Codex hits?
Goodwin's already gone down as having stated such.

**JSK-Fox**

GW getting its fingers into another lawsuit?
Hah.
Joking around aside, I personally hope that GW wins, as I don't see chapterhouse selling me more of that plastic crack.

**brettz123**

Sovereign6 wrote:
brettz123 wrote:
Sovereign6 wrote:I'm only reading about this now, and don't know much about Chapter House.

So, what's the difference between Forge World, and the Chapter House? Forge World being backed by GW I'm guessing?

I'd rather have a compromise than one or the others 'winning'
Like mentioned earlier. Why not just change the names and whatnot to what GW likes, or even share some of the profits with GW. I'm sure that would help settle things.

Uhhhhhh Forge World is a part of GW.......

Also GW probably isn't looking to compromise to be honest with you. It is there game and they don't want poor quality add ons by third parties. Why should they share their potential profits with some company who has done none of the leg work they did making 40k what it is?

Hmm. Did I mention I'm new?

I guess that's true as well. Why should they share at all with someone that contributed nothing.
I'd still rather that though. They could make whatever GW hasn't/can't or whatever they don't see as profitable.

I agree with you however, I don't see GW wanting to do that.

Yeah sorry I was being overly sarcastic (welcome to Dakka Dakka by the way). It would be great if they would do some licensing I just don't see it in the near future. I love space marines so I would be jumping for joy if they allowed a third party to make shoulder pads or some such.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:chapterhouse bits are better then FW or GW stuff. GW should just stop throwing a tantrum like a little baby and STFU. i swear if GW wins i'll sell my soul off to see them destroyed

You obviously haven't bought much Forge World stuff then...... way better than anything CH has come out with. The detail on their stuff is amazing.

**JSK-Fox**

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:chapterhouse bits are better then FW or GW stuff. GW should just stop throwing a tantrum like a little baby and STFU. i swear if GW wins i'll sell my soul off to see them destroyed

Really?
Are you serious?

**TyraelVladinhurst**

brettz123 wrote:
Sovereign6 wrote:
brettz123 wrote:
Sovereign6 wrote:I'm only reading about this now, and don't know much about Chapter House.

So, what's the difference between Forge World, and the Chapter House? Forge World being backed by GW I'm guessing?

I'd rather have a compromise than one or the others 'winning'
Like mentioned earlier. Why not just change the names and whatnot to what GW likes, or even share some of the profits with GW. I'm sure that would help settle things.

Uhhhhhh Forge World is a part of GW.......

Also GW probably isn't looking to compromise to be honest with you. It is there game and they don't want poor quality add ons by third parties. Why should they share their potential profits with some company who has done none of the leg work they did making 40k what it is?

Hmm. Did I mention I'm new?

I guess that's true as well. Why should they share at all with someone that contributed nothing.
I'd still rather that though. They could make whatever GW hasn't/can't or whatever they don't see as profitable.

I agree with you however, I don't see GW wanting to do that.

Yeah sorry I was being overly sarcastic (welcome to Dakka Dakka by the way). It would be great if they would do some licensing I just don't see it in the near future. I love space marines so I would be jumping for joy if they allowed a third party to make shoulder pads or some such.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:chapterhouse bits are better then FW or GW stuff. GW should just stop throwing a tantrum like a little baby and STFU. i swear if GW wins i'll sell my soul off to see them destroyed

You obviously haven't bought much Forge World stuff then...... way better than anything CH has come out with. The detail on their stuff is amazing.

actually i have, and everything i've bought from them has had either miss shapen pieces or missing ones, direct example of this i ordered 2 packs of their MK3 armor and they only sent me five legs and three of the torsos were miss shapen so badly they wouldn't fit onto the legs provided. chapterhouse on the other hand has done amazing work reducing this problem

**Kanluwen**

You do know you can y'know...call Forge World and they'll fix the problem yeah?

**TyraelVladinhurst**

Kanluwen wrote:You do know you can y'know...call Forge World and they'll fix the problem yeah?

did that and they pretty much told me to go

myself

**Kanluwen**

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:You do know you can y'know...call Forge World and they'll fix the problem yeah?

did that and they pretty much told me to go myself

I'm calling "bull" on that.

They've replaced, most recently, an entire Tarantula Sentry Gun Emplacement for me simply because of miscasting on the sandbags on one side.

So either you did something to really piss the guy answering the phone off, called the wrong number, or they pulled up your order and found something that didn't add up versus your claim.

**TyraelVladinhurst**

well i didn't exactly call them as my phone doesn't do international, i did e-mail them though and that was their response to me. i have the email if your interested

**Kanluwen**

Do post it.

**Polonius**

To be fair, it's a well known fact that ordering from Forgeworld is a nightmare. Apparently if you're willing to call long distance while they are there, you have an increased chance of getting what you want. But nobody thinks that GW's exemplary customer service extends to FW.

**Kanluwen**

They've actually gotten far better over the past five months. I regularly get replies to emails within an hour or two during their business hours.

**Bookwrack**

Kanluwen wrote:You do know you can y'know...call Forge World and they'll fix the problem yeah?

That requires him to actually have bought anything from forgeworld in the first place instead of seeing what kind of lies will get the biggest flames going.

**dogma**

LittleLeadMen wrote:
What I was trying to express was the idea that people should make their own products, that stand on their own.

How does this sentiment jive with the rampant use of cultural tropes that GW is obviously guilty of?

How does it jive with the fact that tropes exist at all?

**Shibboleth02**

As for GW using tropes, let's take Eldar as an example. They're space elves. They decided to name them in a unique manner. They developed specific unique backstories for them, and invented specific characters and imagery for them. Anyone can see that they are space elves, but they are unique in key ways. They took the time to register their copyrights and trademarks. Anyone that took objection to those has had nearly two decades to make those objections known and challenge the "Eldar" items. In the end, I can't name another product with elves that feels, looks, and is identified in the specific way that the eldar brand is. That's acceptable.

Same thing with much of the Tau stuff. The suits have their own look and devices, objectively enough to protect them from legal challenges.

You can use any/all tropes you want. The issue is when you sell items that are direct knock-offs of another company, or when you use their IP to sell your wares. Sell all the space elf junk you want, it's a free world. (Well, my part of it is... I don't live in North Korea). Just don't sell Farseer Jetbike Conversion kits or Doom of Malanai figs, etc.

And when you sculpt something and sell it, don't make it look like a pre-exisiting product or range sold by another company. And if you choose to do it anyhow, don't run around on message boards proclaiming that you've been maligned somehow because you made poor legal decisions.

My comment was in response to another poster. I stated that I didn't feel CH made original sculpts- the 2nd poster responded by pointing out that CH are original sculpts. My response, in turn, was an acknowledgement that the CH were in original, in the limited context of whether they were physically based on other parts as a starting point. (For example, taking a GW shoulder pad, then adding iconography, as opposed to sculpting an entire pad from scratch without the use of the "base" part.) However, I would rather see companies produce their own models, games, backgrounds, etc.

**Earthbeard**

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:You do know you can y'know...call Forge World and they'll fix the problem yeah?

did that and they pretty much told me to go myself

Obvious troll is obviously trolling at this point, even if it wasn't obvious before