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sourclams wrote:

Janthkin wrote:I don't like the poll options. It reduces a complex set of hundreds of legal & factual determinations into a binary popularity contest. There's unlikely to be a singular "winner" in any suit this complex.

You're free to create your own poll with a set of hundreds of legal and factual determinations to generate an aggregate sentiment barometer for a forum audience of fifty contributors that you might then index into a nebulous non-answer.

Because there IS no binary answer.

Imagine that - a problem more complex than can be decided by a yes/no poll!

So you sympathize with neither. Don't participate in the poll. Why is that so hard?

GW, because they have to protect their stuff. Plus, more money = lower prices, amirite?

Okay- CH because they are sorta ripping off GW's stuff, though I feel not overly enough to warrant a lawsuit. That and I want to buy some of thier heresy-era JP's.

I'm really surprised how many people want GW to win this suit.

Not one single one of us consumers benefits from GW winning this suit.

Sure, they might be on rock solid legal ground and win this suit without any problem. I sure don't know enough about the situation to know all the legal ins and outs.

All I know is that GW getting rid of this company reduces my options as a consumer.

And Kanluwen, by competition I meant that CH making items that people want might actually inspire GW to make those items themselves. CH winning would also open the doors to more similar companies to start marketing their own aftermarket parts, since a precedent allowing it would exist. That is the increase in competition to which I referred.

Hmmm...

Edited by moderator. Rule #1, folks.

Hey, a POLL!! Good idea

I vote for a GW win, its their I.P. and they should defend it.

I also encourage companies to branch out and create new things for me to window lick and want....GW is big enough as it is, with more companies jumping on their bandwagon I'm worried that people won't make the effort to innovate, after all, creativity and innovation is hard, and could lead to nothing....the easy road is to ride someone elses success, but create nothing new.

sourclams wrote:So you sympathize with neither. Don't participate in the poll. Why is that so hard?

Because it's trivializing a field I know a lot about? Because it's encouraging an us-vs-them mentality that has no place in any business lawsuit? Because it encourages people to reach un- and underinformed opinions?

How about because this lawsuit has a very real, very serious effect on people that contribute to the Dakka community, and trivializing what is probably a very serious event for them in this way seems demeaning, insulting, and rude?

Janthkin wrote:

2 - GW has their sources wrong and Paulson games did not have any hand in producing the Walker in question.

Yup, this is a problem. As was brought up elsewhere, it could have an interesting effect on venue, too.

Someone pointed out in the other thread that there's a part in the wording that "14 of the 15 items also offered by Paulson Games are based upon Games Workshop IP." or something to that effect.

So I guess they did take notice of the "Riding Wolves".

Chapterhouse.

GW do not cover all the modeling options and unit choices, (while it's understandable they won't create a model that doesn't sell) they shouldn't stop CH from filling in the gaps.

IMO CH saw a gap and filled it. They have put the work into making the models themselves. They have not made up the setting but neither have any of the historical modeling companies. I think giving those gamers who can't convert their own models the option to have unique looking armies is a good thing.

I hope Chapterhouse wins because this is IMO just GW getting pissy because somebody else is making better products than them. Not to mention these third party companies are making what people actually want. Not just sitting around telling people to convert models themselves.

Janthkin wrote:

sourclams wrote:So you sympathize with neither. Don't participate in the poll. Why is that so hard?

Because it's trivializing a field I know a lot about? Because it's encouraging an us-vs-them mentality that has no place in any business lawsuit? Because it encourages people to reach un- and underinformed opinions?

How about because this lawsuit has a very real, very serious effect on people that contribute to the Dakka community, and trivializing what is probably a very serious event for them in this way seems demeaning, insulting, and rude?

?!?!? What....

I respect your knowledge on this matter especially as this is your specialist field ( bearing in mind, I don't actually know you, and you could be that same Japanese man who goes onto internet forums pretending to be a school girl, and sells his used pants rather then "hers" to twisted western gentlemen, but thats another story! ), and I also respect that in reality there may be no clear winner, as such, to a case this "complex"

But really, who cares? For us Forum luddites, its about GW trying to paste someone for peeing on their turf.....

Sorry, to put it so blunt, but there are guys, presumably, like yourself, earning a lot of money trying to work this mess out, we Forum Warriors, don't stand a chance, but it sure as hell makes for a good Thursday evening debate.....so lighten up and play along....unless of course you're on one of the legal teams.....and not selling your underpants....

Polonius wrote:

Janthkin wrote:I don't like the poll options. It reduces a complex set of hundreds of legal & factual determinations into a binary popularity contest. There's unlikely to be a singular "winner" in any suit this complex.

Listen Mr. Fancy Pants lawyer-man, this is about the theiving bastards at chapterhous and the feckless bullies at Games workshop.

Pick a side and stop trying to treat this like a genuine conflict of interest between two businesses.

Polonius, there are days that I truly love you.

The poll options really suck. This isn't really a matter than can be boiled down to a simple binary choice.

Groan.

I feel like no matter who wins, everyone still loses in the end. Where's that option?

4M2A wrote:Chapterhouse.

GW do not cover all the modeling options and unit choices, (while it's understandable they won't create a model that doesn't sell) they shouldn't stop CH from filling in the gaps.

IMO CH saw a gap and filled it. They have put the work into making the models themselves. They have not made up the setting but neither have any of the historical modeling companies. I think giving those gamers who can't convert their own models the option to have unique looking armies is a good thing.

No, they'e taken GW artwork and background, a bunged some greenstuff together, proclaiming it 'all me own work guv' then added insult to injury by advertising it using GW terms and names and that. This is taking the piss.

And as came up in the first thread, confirmed by Polonious....IP is something you either defend, or risk losing. So there is no bullying on GW's behalf. This is something they have to do, and clearly something CH have brought down upon their own heads. Hence my lack of sympathy.

Mr Mystery wrote:

4M2A wrote:Chapterhouse.

GW do not cover all the modeling options and unit choices, (while it's understandable they won't create a model that doesn't sell) they shouldn't stop CH from filling in the gaps.

IMO CH saw a gap and filled it. They have put the work into making the models themselves. They have not made up the setting but neither have any of the historical modeling companies. I think giving those gamers who can't convert their own models the option to have unique looking armies is a good thing.

No, they'e taken GW artwork and background, a bunged some greenstuff together, proclaiming it 'all me own work guv' then added insult to injury by advertising it using GW terms and names and that. This is taking the piss.

And as came up in the first thread, confirmed by Polonious....IP is something you either defend, or risk losing. So there is no bullying on GW's behalf. This is something they have to do, and clearly something CH have brought down upon their own heads. Hence my lack of sympathy.

With all due sincerity, why are you so emotionally provoked by this? Why do you feel the need to insult the employees of Chapterhouse? If you feel it is wrong, so be it, but no person's feelings one way or the other will make any of these actions legal or illegal.

Please stop being so belligerent, at least publicly, as I fail to see what it accomplishes, and it is in violation of this board's policies as well.

Absolutionis wrote:1 - GW could have sent a C&D. Instead, they decided upon a punch-in-the-face lawsuit.

Going by comments made by CH in the past, it would seem that they did receive at least one C&D letter previous to this...


Meanwhile, here's a reminder for everyone to remember Rule #1. If you don't feel that you can contribute to the discussion without insulting someone, feel free to find something else to do with your time.

Unhappy at GW's heavy hand, concerned about a chilling effect on the 28mm market.

Kanluwen wrote:Someone pointed out in the other thread that there's a part in the wording that "14 of the 15 items also offered by Paulson Games are based upon Games Workshop IP." or something to that effect.

So I guess they did take notice of the "Riding Wolves".

I've just taken my first look at the Paulson Games website. The Riding Wolves seem a bit thin as a "based upon our IP" example, ditto the Scythes. Can't see the pictures for the Underslung Gun or Bio-Terror, so can't comment on them.

I can kinda see where they might be coming from on the Medium and Long Guns, but only due to the panel lining - not sure how that stands up as IP.

The Bio-Swords, Tendril Whips, Winged Jump Packs and Robot Combat Talons seem to be on somewhat dodgier ground, in my (admittedly uneducated in the matters) opinion.

Final warning. Several off-topic and inappropriate posts have been removed from this thread. The next post that breaks Rule #1, or that is aimed at another poster instead of the actual topic, earns a vacation.

Who do I want to win? chapterhouse.
Who deserves to win? GW.

Tee-hee! logic is fun!

Okay, look at it this way.

You have created a new world for wargaming in. You've created art, background, iconography, models, rules, the whole shebang. This has taken considerable time and effort. However, due to financial and arguably chronological restraints, you cannot release everything all at once. Something has to be put on the back burner until budgets can be raised to do the next step.

So you go ahead and release what you expect to be the biggest sellers. And whilst you wait for your chance to do the next wave, some other company steps in, creates models blatantly based on your artwork and iconography, and even goes so far as to name them the same, piggy backing off your hard work with perhaps a few hours pushing greenstuff around, and starts to sell them.

How would that not piss you off, and why wouldn't you want to put a stop to it?

It's not as if CH have actually created original works in most cases (the big walker fair enough, even if it's design cues are a little obvious). They've gone after GW designed stuff knowing it's a fast buck. This is parasitic behaviour.

IP is something that has to be protected, or you will lose it. And sure, you might argue 'but GW are big corporate entity, they can take the odd hit' don't forget, they are a big corporate entity that likely employ a couple of thousand people, which I would say is all the more reason to defend your IP as strongly as possible.

Again, CH have brought this on themselves by deliberately using copyrighted terms and iconography to promote their range.

This is not a matter of 'market choice'. The market choice is to play PP, GW, Mantic games etc. You want to play PP? You buy PP models. You want to play GW, you buy GW models (well, barring Elves etc. Can't copyright them as a concept, but you can a design). THAT is your choice. THAT is how a freemarket works. THAT is what IP law is there to defend and enforce. THIS is where CH crossed the line.

Surely it's simple to see?

Since so many folks want to make "upgrade kids" for GW stuff, maybe GW could make an affiliate program where you can get officially licensed GW things from 3rd parties. It could be model upgrades or even t-shirts or mouse pads. GW would have to approve every item, but it could give new sculptor companies something to aspire to and knowing GW if they did something like this their standards for who they let into the program would be pretty high...

I hope Chapterhouse wins, but I have a feeling GW will merely because GW has the legal endurance (I.E. money) to prolong things.

I feel, with no legal background, that Chapterhouse's designs are safe but that they may have gone a bit far with descriptions.

For the record, I've never bought from Chapterhouse and haven't bought GW stuff in years, so no dog in the fight for me, really. I tend to favor the 'Non-GW' option, but in this case, GW really loses nothing by the existence of aftermarket conversion part companies except when it's a niche they fill in a worse way.

To use CH shoulderpads, you're still buying Space Marines. to use 3rd party IG heads, you're still buying Cadians. GW sells a few sets of shoulder pads and no (as far as I'm aware) sets of alternate IG heads (other than raiding another line like WHFB Empire sprues).

If GW is doing this as a lead-up to moving into that kind of market, more power to them. They can compete on a 'level' playing field as they have good sculptors, already have a lot of infrastructure in place (I.E. for plastic production), and can buy raw materials in bulk. I feel GW could compete, and compete well, if they wanted to by looking on this as an opportunity and making sprues of shoulder pads that are cheaper and better than CH's, and I'm cool with that. Better is always going to be subjective in the kind of thing, and I see nothing wrong with Company X Producing Cosmic Puppy sigils as they aren't allowed to sue the protected Space Wolf markings.

I agree with Balance's point above. I concede all the points about protecting IP and defending imagery and all the hard work that GW have done building up the brand etc etc but I feel that they are being a little heavy handed about it all (and not without precedent really; we saw the same thing with the C&D fiasco and the fallout over the Blood Bowl rules).

As previously mentioned, its not like the CH stuff is gunning to replace GW product; its an enhancement so I fail to see why GW are so angry. I understand that they want to have some sort of quality control over anything labelled 40K which is fine, but why couldn't they come to some sort of licensing agreement with CH? After all, they don't want to bother making this piddly aftermarket conversion stuff themselves...

Chapterhouse. Lets let some creative freedom into the hobby. And GW lawyers need a wake up call that they cant sue the community out of house and home.

Filbert...it's all down to the IP. If GW did nothing about CH's infringement, then they could lose all their IP, and that could well be the end of GW as we know it.

The measure isn't heavy handed. We do not know if a C&D letter was sent, though some have suggested it was, and then ignored. Win or lose the case, it's still costing GW money, and no company wants to spend money it doesn't absolutely have to, especially on a long legal case, which this could well be. But it is necessary to defend their own IP.

As for the aftermarket, see my post above. GW do work to a budget, they literally cannot just churn out what they want, when they want. That they have yet to produce said goodies is no reason for anyone else to step in and use their IP to produce in their stead. Not without a license anyways! I'm sure the people of GW would love to be able to do a dozen different shoulder pads for all the different chapters/legions. Hell, I'm sure they have killer ideas for new units, armies possibly even games they'd love to produce. But cool does not equal practical or (had a really good word for this bit, then went and forgot it!) possible.

Best thing would be for GW to get Chapterhouse to work for them.

But we live in a world where people would rather bitch and fight than produce quality goods.

Mr Mystery wrote:Filbert...it's all down to the IP. If GW did nothing about CH's infringement, then they could lose all their IP, and that could well be the end of GW as we know it.

I would humbly suggest it is a little bit of an oversimplification and exaggeration to claim that not pursuing CH and other similar small companies equates to GW losing a grip on their IP. If a company started up churning out GW recasts, then that is clearly a different matter. But again, this is one for the IP lawyers to debate.

The measure isn't heavy handed. We do not know if a C&D letter was sent, though some have suggested it was, and then ignored. Win or lose the case, it's still costing GW money, and no company wants to spend money it doesn't absolutely have to, especially on a long legal case, which this could well be. But it is necessary to defend their own IP.

Tomato / tomahto. I think in the context of other GW action against individuals / companies perceived to be going 'against the GW grain' then it is heavy handed. And I am sure GW have a permanent cadre of lawyers purely for these purposes - I would suggest this will cost CH an awful lot more than it will GW.

As for the aftermarket, see my post above. GW do work to a budget, they literally cannot just churn out what they want, when they want. That they have yet to produce said goodies is no reason for anyone else to step in and use their IP to produce in their stead. Not without a license anyways! I'm sure the people of GW would love to be able to do a dozen different shoulder pads for all the different chapters/legions. Hell, I'm sure they have killer ideas for new units, armies possibly even games they'd love to produce. But cool does not equal practical or (had a really good word for this bit, then went and forgot it!) possible.

And that's the salient point, no? GW may well want to do this stuff but have decided against it for cost / profit / effort purposes. Clearly there is a market and a demand that CH have responded to. I don't really see how this can hurt GW; rather everyone wins. GW sell kits, CH sell conversion pieces, the customer gets what they wanted that GW hitherto haven't been able or willing to provide. A contented customer is more likely to persevere in the hobby and continue buying stuff are they not? The only downside would be if the kits sold by the 3rd party are of a low quality that GW feel damage their own rep - can't comment on this as I have never bought any CH stuff.

I'm not saying GW should abandon all attempts to protect themselves, rather that perhaps it could have been handled a little better. GW seem all too keen and quick to wheel out the legal team IMO.