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Has GW won yet?

If you're not reading all the new posts to the thread, raise your hand.

::looks pointedly at Henners91::
: )


Eric

Guitardian wrote:I root for the first. Intellectual property is property, and sadly the ones that decide these cases are most likely not the types to own intellectual property of their own creativity, so don't know what its like to watch someone else profiteering off their ideas.

The problem with your notion is that "intellectual property" is a legally defined artifice and being defined it has explicit rights and privlages of protection. Indirectly every one else has a right to do anything with those IP that isn't explicitly forbidden and in rare instances everyone has explicit rights to use another's IP in specific ways.

What I find frustrating is that everything CH has done is explicitly allowed; GW's arguement and this case is not whether CH is doing something wrong, but that the combination of things CH has done, despite the independant legality of each action, amounts to a violation of GW's rights. That CH has created too much ambiguity between itself and GW.

That's the real question, does CH present itself as or with association to GW? Everything else is just smokescreens to the issue going to court.

Even if we hypothetically assumed every CH model was a direct copy of a GW piece, that is not legal issue being looked at. People are bringing into this alot of notions of what they think GW's stance is or should be based on their ethical beliefs, but haven't bothered to look at what GW actually cares about and the legal footing non-IP holders have.

MagickalMemories wrote:If you're not reading all the new posts to the thread, raise your hand.

::looks pointedly at Henners91::
: )


Eric

I stopped reading this thread pretty quickly...

Henners91 wrote:I stopped reading this thread pretty quickly...

Yeah, it show's.
Competence is heresy, the true heart is uncorrupted by facts

As far as I can see the only thing Chapterhouse has done is to highlight to GW the following: YOU SHOULD BE DOING THIS. People want the parts and kits to build their armies how they want them. Even when you buy a specific GW army like marines you do not get enough parts to make each figure recognisable as belonging to an army, you only tend to get half the amount you need. I don't rate a lot of CH stuff very highly as they tend to lack the final detail. On the other hand I don't rate GW's metal replacement shoulder pads. For a Dark Angel army I put together last year I got metal pads only to discover that they were smaller in scale to the plastic ones already attached to the model.
If GW are going to have specific armies then those armies should have all the bells and whistles so that the armies are recognised as such and no half measures.
The word that we should bear in mind is GENERIC. Otherwise there would be only one brand of Computer, One brand of mobile phone, one brand of medicine, One brand of car...
I'd like to see CH win, mainly because it might force GW to rethink their policy on the availability of parts/kits.

Henners91 wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:If you're not reading all the new posts to the thread, raise your hand.

::looks pointedly at Henners91::
: )


Eric

I stopped reading this thread pretty quickly...

Someone might then point out that you should also stop posting in it!

So what is the news then, for those of us who can't be arsed to wade through 18 pages?

Mr Mystery wrote:So what is the news then, for those of us who can't be arsed to wade through 18 pages?

That both sides are in fact-finding modes by agreement, it seems. I don't think it'll see the inside of a courtroom for 1-2 months at least.

Fairly dos.

Cheers matey.

Hopefully this all ends soon

oops wrong thread...

Update on the legal matter at hand:

My company, Chapterhouse Studios LLC, has been very fortunate to locate pro-bono council with the help and tips of a few of our customers. Those customers have intensive legal background as well as leads that helped us find a firm that believes in our case enough to support us.

Thanks to some friends good advice and experience we have a legal agreement for Winston & Strawn LLP - http://winstonandstrawn.com/ to represent us in our case.

I consider myself very lucky to have three attorneys from the firm willing to be our representatives during the case and any other negotiations with Games Workshop. The lead on the case Jennifer Golinveaux has some major experience behind her, and I am confident that with her teams' help we will come out of this experience in great shape.

I think the attorneys thought this was a slam-dunk case for Games Workshop and we had no legal ground to stand on that there would be little chance for us to find such an outstanding firm to help us.

For everyone who has given their support, I really do appreciate it. I will do my best to let everyone know what happens (as much as is ok with the attorneys). We are truly grateful for Winston and Strawn as well as our loyal customers.

Sincerely,
Nick Villacci
Chapterhouse Studios LLC

That's fantastic news! I wonder if GW will blink.

great stuff. go Chapterhouse

Guitardian wrote:Some people have a talent for ideas.
Some have a talent for figuring out which ideas to imitate or jump on.
Some have a talent (like that Tomy vs FASA) for figuring out legal technicalities why it wasn't actually a rip-off of an idea.
(translation)
Some people create the concept art
Some people steal the concept product
Some people cheat the rules of what is stealing

Some people call me the space cowboy
Some people call me the gangster of love
Some people call my Maureece
'cause I speak of the pompetous of love

Okay, but think about the message that Chapterhouse is sending: not a legal firm able to defend them, but a firm willing to defend them. Was it the original firm that first game them the legal opinion that "Sure, why not?"

It looks like this firm has a history of representing major clients, including Google, but are taking the Chapterhouse case on a pro bono basis for some reason. I suspect it's t try and establish some kind of clarity in the murkier areas of IP law and trademark usage but one of Dakkadakka's many law-talking guys might be able to grasp it more clearly.

I'd still strongly recommend that Chapterhouse cease posting anything on here or other forums concerning the lawsuit, as it's ongoing litigation and anything said could possibly be admissible in court and may be detrimental for their case. I'm no lawyer though, so that's a post coming from what I consider common sense, which is often not enshrined with legal niceties.

I'd be very surprised if that conflicted with the legal advice they're receiving from Winston & Strawn.

that's my 2 cents (my words are cheaper than most lawyers, except on a pro bono basis )

Edit: Darn lowercase 'p' not working for the tongue in cheek Orkmoticon

chaplaingrabthar wrote:
I'd still strongly recommend that Chapterhouse cease posting anything on here or other forums concerning the lawsuit, as it's ongoing litigation and anything said could possibly be admissible in court and may be detrimental for their case. I'm no lawyer though, so that's a post coming from what I consider common sense, which is often not enshrined with legal niceties.

Are you giving Chapterhouse a Cease and Desist on their Cease and Desist?

;D

I'm still holding on to hope that both sides will somehow contrive to lose at the same time. I want the see the current stagnant status quo to change a bit.

Nurglitch wrote:Okay, but think about the message that Chapterhouse is sending: not a legal firm able to defend them, but a firm willing to defend them. Was it the original firm that first game them the legal opinion that "Sure, why not?"

Huh?

I'm not sure if you're trying to make a very subtle point, or are just ignorant of the mechanisms of the American legal system. Presuming it's the latter (if it's the former I'm very curious as to your meaning), there are certain things I think we can reasonably infer:
1) The original legal work Chapterhouse had done was by "local counsel"; either a small firm or a solo, who gave them general guidelines,
2) If that's the case, such a firm would be very hard pressed to answer the extensive, federal matters that the current litigation presents,
3) Even if they were willing to, it must be realized that CH has "traded up" in almost every sense.

I dunno who gave the original opinions to CH (not does it matter), but Winston & Strawn is Big fish. As in, a 900 lawyer, multinational firm. As in $744 million in 2008 revenue. And CH is being represented by a partner at said firm.

I don't think that the real impact here may be quite clearly appreciated: previously, I think the best bet was that CH would have been lucky to have settled in such a way as to preserve some part of their business. That's not on the table anymore really, or at least not in any sort of worrisome way.

We're looking at the very real chance now of this case going to trial. And let me tell you, as an IP attorney, that's something that is going to worry GW's lawyers to a major degree.

The reason for that is that Intellectual Property is the only kind of property where you don't know what you have until you go to court.

Going before a judge means a very real chance that GW might not just lose this particular action, but they may have some of their terms simply stripped away; that is, that some of the things they claim as "their IP" simply goes away. Will this happen? I dunno. But it must be understood that in IP, when cases go to court, there is a real chance that the parties come out completely transformed.

I hope Chapterhouse wins. I think we'd be looking at a much better industry for the consumer if people were able to build their armies from whatever model ranges they liked. I wonder if GW would be happy to let the Dark Eldar range drift for a decade if other companies were in there offering their own Dark Eldar models?

As for is actually going to win... hell if I know. The way Chapterhouse sold their products and included GW terms on them jumps out at me as problematic, but I'm not a lawyer so I just do anything more than guess if it's actually illegal.

Chapterhouse have started a new thread which (I believe) they will be using to keep us as up to date as they are able on how things are progressing.

chaplaingrabthar wrote:It looks like this firm has a history of representing major clients, including Google, but are taking the Chapterhouse case on a pro bono basis for some reason. I suspect it's t try and establish some kind of clarity in the murkier areas of IP law and trademark usage but one of Dakkadakka's many law-talking guys might be able to grasp it more clearly.

As in, they may have a *much* larger case in the background, and see this as a cheap way to set a precedent? Or they are retained by clients for whom setting such precedent would be beneficial?

Or, maybe, the partner's simply got a kid who plays 40k and wants some stuff cast up legally.

We won't find out for a year, so it's pure speculation

Also, while CHS probably can't comment on the details, legal filings which are part of the public record (e.g. PACER / LexisNexis) can be shared without much risk. In this case, they've simply stated who their counsel are. That is a matter of record that all interested parties are entitled to know as a matter of course.
____

Buzzsaw wrote:I'm not sure if you're trying to make a very subtle point, or are just ignorant of the mechanisms of the American legal system. Presuming it's the latter (if it's the former I'm very curious as to your meaning), there are certain things I think we can reasonably infer:
1) The original legal work Chapterhouse had done was by "local counsel"; either a small firm or a solo, who gave them general guidelines,
2) If that's the case, such a firm would be very hard pressed to answer the extensive, federal matters that the current litigation presents,
3) Even if they were willing to, it must be realized that CH has "traded up" in almost every sense.

I dunno who gave the original opinions to CH (not does it matter), but Winston & Strawn is Big fish. As in, a 900 lawyer, multinational firm. As in $744 million in 2008 revenue. And CH is being represented by a partner at said firm.

I don't think that the real impact here may be quite clearly appreciated: previously, I think the best bet was that CH would have been lucky to have settled in such a way as to preserve some part of their business. That's not on the table anymore really, or at least not in any sort of worrisome way.

We're looking at the very real chance now of this case going to trial. And let me tell you, as an IP attorney, that's something that is going to worry GW's lawyers to a major degree.

The reason for that is that Intellectual Property is the only kind of property where you don't know what you have until you go to court.

Going before a judge means a very real chance that GW might not just lose this particular action, but they may have some of their terms simply stripped away; that is, that some of the things they claim as "their IP" simply goes away. Will this happen? I dunno. But it must be understood that in IP, when cases go to court, there is a real chance that the parties come out completely transformed.

Yeah, IP law is very interesting stuff, precisely because we're talking about pure thought.

Based on the Playmates case, I suspect that GW's model IP may be vastly weaker than they've been able get people to believe, but has been "protected" simply by virtue of everybody they challenge being smaller guys and unable to mount a proper legal defense. Kinda like how Monster Cable operates. If / when the curtain is pulled, the Wizard may turn out to be nothing but a little old man.

Should be interesting.

Yes, that is what I have been thinking too.

Most of GW's complaints were BS. There were a few instances where Chapter House were probably sailing close to the line, but whether they actually went over it is a matter for the court to determine.

The point of the suit was to scare off Chapter House and other conversion kit makers by the threat of a lawsuit so expensive that it could not be entered into.

Having pro bono support from a good firm means at least Chapter House need not worry about their own costs. It probably will worry GW, because they will incur serious costs themselves which they may not be able to recover.

GW may prefer to try for some out of court settlement, to avoid the risk of their claimed IP rights being broken down legally.

Kilkrazy wrote:Yes, that is what I have been thinking too.

Most of GW's complaints were BS. There were a few instances where Chapter House were probably sailing close to the line, but whether they actually went over it is a matter for the court to determine.

The point of the suit was to scare off Chapter House and other conversion kit makers by the threat of a lawsuit so expensive that it could not be entered into.

Having pro bono support from a good firm means at least Chapter House need not worry about their own costs. It probably will worry GW, because they will incur serious costs themselves which they may not be able to recover.

GW may prefer to try for some out of court settlement, to avoid the risk of their claimed IP rights being broken down legally.

Not only that but what if this sets some sort of legal precedent? Being hypothetical for a moment, if GW lose then it potentially opens the gates for a lot more companies to step up their production where hitherto they may have steered clear. I think GW may have gotten themselves onto very shaky ground.

Well, without jumping on the whole legal side of things, we have already seen and stated that CH have made the error of stating that some things were 'space marine' pads and so on, but I am rooting for them to win this one, all my dealings with them have always been positive and their passion for the game we play is what ignited the fire for them to make the products in the first place and then they were nice enough to make parts available to the rest of us, sure GW aren't happy with them but c'mon, just let them be so we can all have awesome bits on our armies!

filbert wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Yes, that is what I have been thinking too.

Most of GW's complaints were BS. There were a few instances where Chapter House were probably sailing close to the line, but whether they actually went over it is a matter for the court to determine.

The point of the suit was to scare off Chapter House and other conversion kit makers by the threat of a lawsuit so expensive that it could not be entered into.

Having pro bono support from a good firm means at least Chapter House need not worry about their own costs. It probably will worry GW, because they will incur serious costs themselves which they may not be able to recover.

GW may prefer to try for some out of court settlement, to avoid the risk of their claimed IP rights being broken down legally.

Not only that but what if this sets some sort of legal precedent? Being hypothetical for a moment, if GW lose then it potentially opens the gates for a lot more companies to step up their production where hitherto they may have steered clear. I think GW may have gotten themselves onto very shaky ground.

The point of an out of court settlement is that it will not create any legal precedents. It usually includes a gagging clause on both sides, too.

Kilkrazy wrote:

filbert wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Yes, that is what I have been thinking too.

Most of GW's complaints were BS. There were a few instances where Chapter House were probably sailing close to the line, but whether they actually went over it is a matter for the court to determine.

The point of the suit was to scare off Chapter House and other conversion kit makers by the threat of a lawsuit so expensive that it could not be entered into.

Having pro bono support from a good firm means at least Chapter House need not worry about their own costs. It probably will worry GW, because they will incur serious costs themselves which they may not be able to recover.

GW may prefer to try for some out of court settlement, to avoid the risk of their claimed IP rights being broken down legally.

Not only that but what if this sets some sort of legal precedent? Being hypothetical for a moment, if GW lose then it potentially opens the gates for a lot more companies to step up their production where hitherto they may have steered clear. I think GW may have gotten themselves onto very shaky ground.

The point of an out of court settlement is that it will not create any legal precedents. It usually includes a gagging clause on both sides, too.

So if GW are smart and think that there is any chance, however minuscule, that the ruling might not go in their favour, then they will withdraw the suit and settle out of court? Cunning...

Very good news for Chapterhouse indeed. Hopefully it goes to court and a real decision is made so we all have a better idea of what can and can't be done. That would be nice to get some clarity on the situation. The secret evil american side of me is starting to root for the small guy.