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Ah, but then the problem begins here regarding IP.

For all we know, the sculpts for everything in the books already exist, just waiting for the budget to make the mould. If CH's Tervigon kit is too similar to GW's, this is where GW could lose their IP, as CH could claim there's came first, therefore they own that particular IP.

IP appears to be something you have to be heavy handed about, going from C&D right up to the shtook CH have found themselves in. And again, it's not CH taking inspiration from GW artwork, but using GW names etc for their works that is likely the biggest problem here.

I'd prefer CH only because it would increase competition & perhaps drop GW prices (har har). Other than that IDC, I don't like the quality I've seen from CH & think GW makes a much better product.

Mr Mystery wrote:Ah, but then the problem begins here regarding IP.

For all we know, the sculpts for everything in the books already exist, just waiting for the budget to make the mould. If CH's Tervigon kit is too similar to GW's, this is where GW could lose their IP, as CH could claim there's came first, therefore they own that particular IP.

IP appears to be something you have to be heavy handed about, going from C&D right up to the shtook CH have found themselves in. And again, it's not CH taking inspiration from GW artwork, but using GW names etc for their works that is likely the biggest problem here.

Possibly but then again I don't think anyone knows enough about the details of the case to comment effectively. Everything else is just posturing and pure speculation. I just feel that GW should be trying to engage and embrace the community rather than treat everything else with disdain.

sourclams wrote:

Janthkin wrote:I don't like the poll options. It reduces a complex set of hundreds of legal & factual determinations into a binary popularity contest. There's unlikely to be a singular "winner" in any suit this complex.

You're free to create your own poll with a set of hundreds of legal and factual determinations to generate an aggregate sentiment barometer for a forum audience of fifty contributors that you might then index into a nebulous non-answer.

GW should win but hire chapterhouse and then release the stuff as cheap kits, also slash 50% from all their current RRP. Will your poll have that answer?

But there IS competition. PP, Mantic et al. What is not competition is creating stuff based on someone elses IP.

That is the whole issue! GW do not have a claim to Sci Fi or Fantasy gaming, but they do very much have a claim to the worlds, artwork et al they themselves have created.

This is absolutely no different to a company deciding to produce say, Mickey Mouse in a Gimp Suit cuddly toys. The market is there, sure (no seriously, it will be!) BUT seeing as the market is there for Disney's particular IP, it is for them and no other to sate. Again, this is the entire reason for IP and it's various laws.

Happygrunt wrote:Chapterhouse. Lets let some creative freedom into the hobby. And GW lawyers need a wake up call that they cant sue the community out of house and home.

I will never understand why people think Chapterhouse is part of "the community".

They're not. They're a business that makes money off the community.

By selling products not produced by GW that can only be used on GW models.

You have to Space Marines to make use of the stuff CHS sells. It's not CHS is selling complete kits. They're selling add ons.

Kanluwen wrote:

Happygrunt wrote:Chapterhouse. Lets let some creative freedom into the hobby. And GW lawyers need a wake up call that they cant sue the community out of house and home.

I will never understand why people think Chapterhouse is part of "the community".

They're not. They're a business that makes money off the community.

Its the same way GW relates to the community. They are still a part of the community, same as all the other production companies.

And I have seen an entire salamander CH army. It was one of the most beautiful things I have ever seen.

Mr Mystery wrote:But there IS competition. PP, Mantic et al. What is not competition is creating stuff based on someone elses IP.

That is the whole issue! GW do not have a claim to Sci Fi or Fantasy gaming, but they do very much have a claim to the worlds, artwork et al they themselves have created.

This is absolutely no different to a company deciding to produce say, Mickey Mouse in a Gimp Suit cuddly toys. The market is there, sure (no seriously, it will be!) BUT seeing as the market is there for Disney's particular IP, it is for them and no other to sate. Again, this is the entire reason for IP and it's various laws.

I don't think that is in question. What I think is up for consideration is whether or not GW are being too aggressive in the pursuit of this IP protection. I don't think it is necessary and comes across as being aloof and disdainful - a complaint that has long been levelled at GW. They hold the internet community in a similar sort of regard and have done so for years. Sometimes I think they are a little out of touch which comes from being much more of a corporate entity rather than the homespun hobby centre that they like to portray themselves as.

It's not a question of who I hope will win, it's just that GW will probably win since chapterhouse rather blatantly disregarded GW's copyright.

I really don't want chapterhouse shut down(so how are your missing tyranid models/bits coming along, GW?), but I really don't see them winning.

Amaya wrote:By selling products not produced by GW that can only be used on GW models.

You have to Space Marines to make use of the stuff CHS sells. It's not CHS is selling complete kits. They're selling add ons.

Adds on which use GW's IP without permission. Again, this is the problem.

I'm by no means a lawyer. But.

CH (even though they are renaming stuff on their website) is taking names of products from GW. Plain and simple. Which AFAIK is a violation of IP.

I think we all want the little guy to take down the multi-million dollar mega-corporation. But I don't think it's going to happen. Maybe they'll come to some civilized agreement.

I'm not sure of the history, but how did Armorcast end up getting the rights to make titans back in the day? Looking at my warhound, it says 'ARMORCAST Copyright 1989 Games Workshop Ltd.' Is / was armorcast a subsidiary of GW? Or did they have rights to produce models within the 40k universe? Maybe CH will get somewhere along the same lines for permission.


Just my .02.

-Adam

sourclams wrote:This isn't a place to discuss the legal minutiae of the case, it's simply a binary question to get a feel for the forum population's sentiments.

If you want, throw a brief 1-2 liner explaining why you voted the way you did.

I think I want a little bit of both but I am mostly on GWs side. I think chapterhouse goes just a little too far in using GWs IP. It just rubs me the wrong way and I really don't like it. Now having said that I think they should not be put out of business but should remove the more obvious things removed from their website. I think of these as mostly the space marine shoulder pads which are geared towards existing chapters and use existing GW ideas and iconography.

I also don't particularly like how freely the owner of chapterhouse went around telling everyone that he was standing on sound legal grounds in regards to what he could and couldn't do. Now I don't know if he is right or not but it seems like the height of hubris to stand up tell someone else what you are going to do with their ideas and that they can't do anything about it...... just rubs me the wrong way I guess.


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Saldiven wrote:I'm really surprised how many people want GW to win this suit.

Not one single one of us consumers benefits from GW winning this suit.
.

I was actually surprised by this too but for me personally it isn't about my benefit it is about what I think it right and what I think is wrong. I personally feel that GW has the right to earn money from their creation (which 40k is) and they should be able to determine if they want another company making money off of their creation or not.

sk82712 wrote:I'm not sure of the history, but how did Armorcast end up getting the rights to make titans back in the day? Looking at my warhound, it says 'ARMORCAST Copyright 1989 Games Workshop Ltd.' Is / was armorcast a subsidiary of GW? Or did they have rights to produce models within the 40k universe? Maybe CH will get somewhere along the same lines for permission.

Armorcast had a license to produce vehicles for 40K. That license was not renewed when GW decided to launch Forgeworld and produce those sorts of models themselves.

GW certainly has a right to protect their IP... I do feel that they took the 'nuclear option' here when they would have been much better off doing a C&D letter first to try to clear things up amicably, especially when (in this case) it's a 3rd party parts supplier that encourages sales from GW.

Thing is, being aftermarket as many claim, does not drive GW's sales. Nobody sees a shoulder pad and goes 'hey, I'd best go buy the marines for that!'. Reverse is most likely. Buy marines, see alternate pads, buy pads.

And not meaning to be confrontational, but nobody knows whether or not a C&D letter was sent (given GW's previous, seems more like than not however). And what other option is there? Someone is openly abusing your IP, what else do you do but threaten and then take legal action?

Saldiven wrote:Not one single one of us consumers benefits from GW winning this suit..

Don't we?

Here's a hypothetical:
Chapterhouse produces a third-party conversion kit for turning a Carnifex into a Tervigon. It's (no offense to CH, personal opinion here) not great, but it's relatively cheap.
Meanwhile, GW have a Tervigon kit of their own in the prototype stage. It's much better than CH's conversion kit, but seeing that CH already has a kit on the market selling for less than their kit would, GW decide it's not worth the production cost of getting their Tervigon into production, and so drop it from the production schedule.

So the end result is no official Tervigon kit, and the only available model being a rather wonky-looking conversion kit made by a completely different company. That's not a win for the consumer. The win for the consumer would come from GW knowing that they can produce the models that they want to produce for their own game without having to worry about the potential market being diluted by cheaper, poorer-quality knock-offs.


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Balance wrote: I do feel that they took the 'nuclear option' here when they would have been much better off doing a C&D letter first to try to clear things up amicably, especially when (in this case) it's a 3rd party parts supplier that encourages sales from GW.

Once again, CH have hinted in the past that they have in fact received at least one C&D from GW.

filbert wrote:

Mr Mystery wrote:But there IS competition. PP, Mantic et al. What is not competition is creating stuff based on someone elses IP.

That is the whole issue! GW do not have a claim to Sci Fi or Fantasy gaming, but they do very much have a claim to the worlds, artwork et al they themselves have created.

This is absolutely no different to a company deciding to produce say, Mickey Mouse in a Gimp Suit cuddly toys. The market is there, sure (no seriously, it will be!) BUT seeing as the market is there for Disney's particular IP, it is for them and no other to sate. Again, this is the entire reason for IP and it's various laws.

I don't think that is in question. What I think is up for consideration is whether or not GW are being too aggressive in the pursuit of this IP protection. I don't think it is necessary and comes across as being aloof and disdainful - a complaint that has long been levelled at GW. They hold the internet community in a similar sort of regard and have done so for years. Sometimes I think they are a little out of touch which comes from being much more of a corporate entity rather than the homespun hobby centre that they like to portray themselves as.

And if CH was just producing shoulderpads that would be "compatible", I don't think there'd be a problem.

But they've gone past that, and produce entire kits, using the names and artwork from GW art. The Meiotic Spore Pod and Tervigon didn't just crop up out of nowhere.

Balance wrote:GW certainly has a right to protect their IP... I do feel that they took the 'nuclear option' here when they would have been much better off doing a C&D letter first to try to clear things up amicably, especially when (in this case) it's a 3rd party parts supplier that encourages sales from GW.

But how do we know they didn't send a C&D letter first?
Similar to what Insaniak said: Chapterhouse has always said they're on a "secure legal footing and likely were sent a C&D, but just ignored it".

filbert wrote:

Tomato / tomahto. I think in the context of other GW action against individuals / companies perceived to be going 'against the GW grain' then it is heavy handed. And I am sure GW have a permanent cadre of lawyers purely for these purposes - I would suggest this will cost CH an awful lot more than it will GW.

.

I guess I don't understand what you are saying here. Do you really mean because it would cost more for chapterhouse to defend themselves that GW shouldn't take them to task for what may very well be legitimate reasons? I don't really see how that makes any sense.

brettz123 wrote:

filbert wrote:

Tomato / tomahto. I think in the context of other GW action against individuals / companies perceived to be going 'against the GW grain' then it is heavy handed. And I am sure GW have a permanent cadre of lawyers purely for these purposes - I would suggest this will cost CH an awful lot more than it will GW.

.

I guess I don't understand what you are saying here. Do you really mean because it would cost more for chapterhouse to defend themselves that GW shouldn't take them to task for what may very well be legitimate reasons? I don't really see how that makes any sense.

No that's not what I am saying at all. I was responding to Mr Mystery's post (hence the quote which you missed out) in which he mentioned that GW wouldn't necessarily embark on potentially costly legal effort without good reason. My point in response being that GW can afford to do so because I suspect they have an entire legal department employed to do just that, unlike CH who will probably end up going bankrupt even if they should 'win' the case.

I personally see GW coming out on top of this but I would like to see an entity like Chapterhouse work in some kind of agreement with Games Workshop. I know it probably won't happen, but it'd be nice to have more stuff come out.

As for the poll options, I prefer to remain in the neutral position.

filbert, I might be wrong but I do believe that in most legal cases, the loser pays the others fees?

As for GW licensing out this sort of stuff, I'm not sure GW would. Not only would said company have to come up to their standards, but said company would have to pay GW a license fee, and a cut of the profits to produce anything. Which isn't a great business plan! Add in GW have the right to terminate the license at any point, and it's an unappealing proposition. Electronic Games etc are better licenses, as GW themselves aren't involved in said market.

Mr Mystery wrote:filbert, I might be wrong but I do believe that in most legal cases, the loser pays the others fees?

Personal injury cases, possibly. No win, no fee right?

Not sure how it works elsewhere but I suspect not. Maybe one of the US law contingent can answer?

Edit: That's why litigation or the threat of is such an effective coercing tool, presumably. Even if the accuser doesn't win they can still do considerable damage to the smaller operation.

Samus_aran115 wrote:GW, because they have to protect their stuff. Plus, more money = lower prices, amirite?

Nah Mate

Legal chaps cost many pennies.
GW hires them by the shipload then off loads the cost onto the consumer.
Sack the lawyers and lower the cost of models would be good!

Mr Mystery wrote:filbert, I might be wrong but I do believe that in most legal cases, the loser pays the others fees?

IIRC that's the case in the UK but not (or not always?) in the US.

Also, even if that were the case, if GW can prolong a case long enough then it doesn't matter if Chapterhouse is actually in the right because they'll go bankrupt before the case is over. Like waiting the other side of a siege out.

So the end result is no official Tervigon kit, and the only available model being a rather wonky-looking conversion kit made by a completely different company. That's not a win for the consumer. The win for the consumer would come from GW knowing that they can produce the models that they want to produce for their own game without having to worry about the potential market being diluted by cheaper, poorer-quality knock-offs.

The likely outcome would be that GW continue regardless.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:GW, because they have to protect their stuff. Plus, more money = lower prices, amirite?

Nah Mate

Legal chaps cost many pennies.
GW hires them by the shipload then off loads the cost onto the consumer.
Sack the lawyers and lower the cost of models would be good!

Of course, one could accused companies like Chapterhouse of causing GW to have a legal team on standby, thus the higher prices are the third party's fault

lol
Never did like conspiracy theories!

Kanluwen wrote:There's no "increase in competition" that would result from CH winning. CH doesn't produce their own game or products based on their own IP that is an alternative to GW's.
Basically every point you made for "prefering CH to come out ahead" is ridiculous and irrelevant.

If the case were Privateer Press being sued by GW for IP infringement, your points would have a bit more merit.
But let's face it; this isn't a case of two competing companies having at it over a contested point. It's a company that, for a simplistic animal analogy, is a remora clinging to a shark. As long as they don't anger the shark or get in the shark's way, they don't get ate up and they remain happily fed. If they get in the shark's way...they become the shark's next meal.

I'm taking it that this is your long-winded way of saying "I hope GW skull-feths CH until they bleed money!", right?


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insaniak wrote:Meanwhile, GW have a Tervigon kit of their own in the prototype stage. It's much better than CH's conversion kit, but seeing that CH already has a kit on the market selling for less than their kit would, GW decide it's not worth the production cost of getting their Tervigon into production, and so drop it from the production schedule.

Except they wouldn't, because the majority of 40K players aren't like us and they know that. They know that the majority won't even know that these 3rd Party Groups exist, and will buy anything that's official (just look at the Defiler as an example of this - everyone made their own before it was released, and once it hit shelves, everyone went and bought them anyway).

Most people will see a new GW Tervigon kit and go "OMG! I can buy one now!". Most of those same 40K players will also say "What's a Chapterhouse?".

Amaya wrote:Best thing would be for GW to get Chapterhouse to work for them.

Except that Chapterhouse generally produces lower quality product. Not bad work, but soft edges on items that should be crisp, inconsistent detail and symmetry. The work is very good when it comes to biological (ie. Tyranid) stuff that is very forgiving on these points. But it's not at the same level as GW final product. (yes, I fully admit GW has released some utter abominations).