Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I'll be selfish and say that I want us to win.

If that means GW wins and makes all the conversion kits that Chapterhouse was
making or planning on making, then cool.

If that means Chapterhouse wins and makes cheaper versions of conversion kits
that are as good as anything GW would have done, then cool.

However, I don't think the world works quite like that.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Most people will see a new GW Tervigon kit and go "OMG! I can buy one now!". Most of those same 40K players will also say "What's a Chapterhouse?".

Some folks(the overwhelming majority of Tyranid players that I know) will look at both kits and just say "Sigh." They're the ones that broke out the green stuff and made their own by kit bashing/sculpting.

Also, Judging by the quality of GWs recent releases(a few beastmen kits notwithstanding) GW's kit will be vastly superior and probably continue the streak of multiple options in one box, ie Skaven warmachines, the Trygon/Mawloc and IG tanks. The CH kit also requires a purchase of the Carnifex box, so it may possibly even end up more expensive then GWs if they make their Tervigon/Tyrannofex box a stand alone set.

I've bought from CH before and probably will again if they are still around when the dust settles, but half of their stuff is just... bush league at best. CHs Doom of Malantai placeholder just looks amateurish in comparison to GWs current standard Zoanthrope for example. Tastes vary of course, but its not my cup of tea.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:There's no "increase in competition" that would result from CH winning. CH doesn't produce their own game or products based on their own IP that is an alternative to GW's.
Basically every point you made for "prefering CH to come out ahead" is ridiculous and irrelevant.

If the case were Privateer Press being sued by GW for IP infringement, your points would have a bit more merit.
But let's face it; this isn't a case of two competing companies having at it over a contested point. It's a company that, for a simplistic animal analogy, is a remora clinging to a shark. As long as they don't anger the shark or get in the shark's way, they don't get ate up and they remain happily fed. If they get in the shark's way...they become the shark's next meal.

I'm taking it that this is your long-winded way of saying "I hope GW skull-feths CH until they bleed money!", right?

I'm taking it that this is your expected attempt at snark.

Anyways, back to reemphasizing the point I made in the post you quoted.

There is no way that GW considers Chapterhouse "competition" in the same sense that they would Privateer Press.

I simply pointed out that the poster whose statement I was replying to was delusional. Chapterhouse isn't a "competing game system". They're leeching upon GW's game system for their customer base.

If this was GW trying to strongarm Privateer Press or Infinity out of existence? Then it would be a completely different situation, and I'd be thoroughly pissed off.

My vote's on GW. Chapterhouse is a parasite, and will likely be forced out of business by the current legal action. I will shed no tears.

give me C.H.A.P.T.E.R.H.O.U.S.E gooooo Chapterhouse...and yes I'm on my meds right now

mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:give me C.H.A.P.T.E.R.H.O.U.S.E gooooo Chapterhouse...and yes I'm on my meds right now

Oh wow. Please report to the OT Thread (here on Dakka) about red flags.

filbert wrote:

brettz123 wrote:

filbert wrote:

Tomato / tomahto. I think in the context of other GW action against individuals / companies perceived to be going 'against the GW grain' then it is heavy handed. And I am sure GW have a permanent cadre of lawyers purely for these purposes - I would suggest this will cost CH an awful lot more than it will GW.

.

I guess I don't understand what you are saying here. Do you really mean because it would cost more for chapterhouse to defend themselves that GW shouldn't take them to task for what may very well be legitimate reasons? I don't really see how that makes any sense.

No that's not what I am saying at all. I was responding to Mr Mystery's post (hence the quote which you missed out) in which he mentioned that GW wouldn't necessarily embark on potentially costly legal effort without good reason. My point in response being that GW can afford to do so because I suspect they have an entire legal department employed to do just that, unlike CH who will probably end up going bankrupt even if they should 'win' the case.

Ok thanks for clarifying that...... I do want GW to win this lawsuit but your bring up a worrying point and I really don't know how I feel about it in this context or any other. Because it does bring up a very worrying issue. You shouldn't win a lawsuit just because you have more money.

I'm not strongly invested in either side, though as long as Chapterhouse isn't making models identical to anything GW produces I'm inclined to root for them simply because they're the underdog.

But what I find interesting about all of this IP protection on GW's part is that GW works so hard to create the impression that their product is the entirety of miniature wargaming. They have even called it "The Games Workshop Hobby" in print IIRC. No company bigs up their competitors, but I often get the impression GW would like me to believe that their competitors don't exist. And when they work that hard to pretend that no one else in the hobby exists, I am inclined to think that's in conflict with vigorously protecting their IP.

They're bullies. Plain and simple.

I think part of it is caused by the fact Blizzard ripped off of both of their universes and got away with it. I can't imagine that GW is all too happy watching WAR fail while WoW rakes in stacks of cash that could've been theirs.

I think it has a lot to do with them starting to release entire models meant to be specific codex entries. See the following link to a Doom of Malantai model that they posted on 6 December.

http://chapterhousestudios.com/webshop/news/29-dooms-day-is-near

Seems to me that GW decided enough was enough.

Yeah, releasing specific models like that is idiotic and infringes on IP rights.

Releasing alternate shoulder pads and stuff like that is fine. Stand alone models is a whole other ballgame.

I voted for Chapterhouse because companies like Verlinden have been making alternate parts and detail parts for Tamiiya and Dragon companies armor model kits for years. And those companies get along just fine. They are filling in a niche that GW must have decided is too small to exploit.

snurl wrote:I voted for Chapterhouse because companies like Verlinden have been making alternate parts and detail parts for Tamiiya and Dragon companies armor model kits for years. And those companies get along just fine. They are filling in a niche that GW must have decided is too small to exploit.

Tamiya and Dragon do not have the IP rights to any of the models they make. The armor models they make are actual real things they did not make up. That makes this two very different issues and your analogy is rather poor.

Much as I want CH to, I can't see it happening.

Are there any circumstances under which the owners / operators of an LLC can be held financially liable?

Amaya wrote:Yeah, releasing specific models like that is idiotic and infringes on IP rights.

Releasing alternate shoulder pads and stuff like that is fine. Stand alone models is a whole other ballgame.

I'll agree with this. Chapterhouse crosses the line on some occasions, but for the most part, I think that the odd shoulder pad bitz set isn't the most heinous of crimes. Still, Chapterhouse has been rather stupid with their phrasing. It seems possible to me to sell "space armour shoulder plates" with generic iconography, but not to sell parts listed as specific 40k bitz. Chapterhouse is infringing on GW's IP, but can avoid the issue by being more discreet.

brettz123 wrote:Are there any circumstances under which the owners / operators of an LLC can be held financially liable?

The rules are similar to piercing the corporate veil, which is to say pretty damn hard. You'd need to show either a pretty major breach of fiduciary duty, or else show that the owners were actively engaging in fraud or other crimes.

This would certainly fall under the business judgment rule, which basically says that the courts aren't going to second guess a companies strategy.

I hadn't seen that doom thing before. It's...interesting.

Well, from a strict law standpoint, gw probably has grounds for a copyright infringement lawsuit. Although, conversion parts are great, and I think that if gw doesn't even produce parts for many variants of their kits (i.e. ig Medusa etc) then someone will start doing so.

Let me start this by saying I have been playing GW games since the RT days. I support GW by buying there product unless it is ridiculously priced like paying $20 for a meganob or a ogryn, this is too high to pay for a unit that numbers 10 models that unit runs $200, when other like units terminators run half that. If I want To adorn My GW models with after market items IE conversion kits to reproduce things GW are not making at this time so be it. I Hope Chapter House win this case and don't go under because they might be riding the coattails of GW. GW rode on some coattails to get where they are Giger Robert Hinelen Tolkien and many others. If they loose the case I can see them going after the other 3rd party manufacturers for possible squishing.

@ kan if you can provide a clear picture in the nid codex showing what a bug drop pod actually looks like and proof that CH ripped off this picture for the pod Sculpted for CH you get a cookie. Cause I can't find one to duplicate for my Homemade pods.

Agamemnon2 wrote:Chapterhouse is a parasite

Just curious but how do you see companies like Battlefoam then? They're making money by producing accessories for GW stuff that GW don't offer....

I hope CH comes out ahead. They make a good product.
CH also give players some nice options for their minis

I agree that it is entirely possible that CH has received and ignored C&D notices.

Scott-S6 wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:Chapterhouse is a parasite

Just curious but how do you see companies like Battlefoam then? They're making money by producing accessories for GW stuff that GW don't offer....

This is actually completely different. They are making a storage product for all miniatures. Do they use specific terminology on some of their shapes? Yep. But they aren't using iconography or producing something GW itself produces or is an add-on to GW product. It's a seperate product entirely which is also the distinction (at least I think )

In regards to the thread I voted GW. Like I said in the other thread if CH hadn't kept teasing the dog thru the fence without realizing they were actually digging a hole for it to get them thru then this wouldn't be a problem. There is a reason that other websites don't show their bitz on GW products even if they are meant for it. Which, on a side note, is where they got Paulson I think who got thrown in because his dread claws and tyrannid (i mean alien) weapon bitz are actually up for release soon and could be proven to impact sales not to mention if they have TWC in the pipe.

Oh and it might have helped that maybe GW didn't use up all their time with their lawyers and wanted to get the most out of them before year closing and so filed the suit now. On the other hand I don't know what schedule they follow for their business year or how they retain their lawyers so this is just a thought. Not stating it's the way it went down

Hulk: here's a serious question for you: do you feel that GW has actually been damaged by CH? Meaning, if CH didn't "tease the dog," GW would be in a better financial position?

If so, than the motive doesn't seem to matter, only if what they did was legal.

If not, than why care?

I feel that with the rumored Tervigon kit set to release as well as the possible tyrannid bio-weapon upgrade that is also rumoured that yes. GW could have been financially impacted by CH and yes that a third party producing them could impact GW.

They release a codex. This year's sprue space only allows for this many models released for this army. Next year there is sprue space for, ex., a tervigon. Now people have purchased tervigon kits from CH and those that purchase this seperately, instead of just converting an existing model, will probably be less inclined to purchase GW's model not to mention that it's possible they might have to adjust it while in progress to not look like CH's. Costing them more money.

It's a hypothetical example honestly based on upcoming rumours but I feel this is why these two companies are getting hit. Stuff they were producing is directly related to releases in the next year or so. That and that they advertised (previous to the suit) their bitz on GW models on their website. Using what I assume is GW IP to sell their parts and increasing the "official" looking nature of the bitz.

So yes, I feel they have financially harmed GW. And that by "teasing the dog" so to speak that GW was already aware of them and that certain recent kits have put it over the edge. If they hadn't teased GW wouldn't have a leg to stand on, but they couldn't help themselves and now the dog is loose.

I'm not a lawyer and I realize that there is a lot of different nuances as to how this can play out. I know nothing about IP law, trademarks, or registering them. I look forward to seeing where this goes and have read most of what Janth and you have said with interest as Janth does this stuff for a living apparently (didn't know what kind of lawyer he was till now) and you also generally present a reasoned stance.

Oh, and I don't really have a dog in this fight. I was tempted to pick up some Pre-heresy Thousand Son pads for when the GK's come out and still might. I'm just interested in the outcome though my personal opinion is that GW is in the right in the main. Now that is completely based on what I've read so far and personal interpretation.

Agamemnon2 wrote:My vote's on GW. Chapterhouse is a parasite, and will likely be forced out of business by the current legal action. I will shed no tears.

Would you call Goodyear, Bridgestone and Michelin parasites because they feed on car customer's needs?
Would you call all aftermarket products illegal and worth to be forced out of business?
Are you aware that in all legal systems, aftermarket products are not illegal per se?

Hulksmash wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:Chapterhouse is a parasite

Just curious but how do you see companies like Battlefoam then? They're making money by producing accessories for GW stuff that GW don't offer....

This is actually completely different. They are making a storage product for all miniatures. Do they use specific terminology on some of their shapes? Yep. But they aren't using iconography or producing something GW itself produces or is an add-on to GW product. It's a seperate product entirely which is also the distinction (at least I think )

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat440149a&rootCatGameStyle=gaming-accessories

@Kroothawk

I think you missed my point. Foam cases have been around since before GW. They didn't patent foam cases for miniatures and has nothing to do with their IP. That is where the difference is I believe. Not to mention that Battlefoam uses different sizes and measurements than GW so I don't think it's even an issue in that sense. It's kinda hard to patent a 1"x2" foam rectangle.

Hulk: the problem is that I think the tervigon kit isn't in any way a violation of GW's IP. There is no model, so they cant' dupe it. You'd be hard pressed to call any 3D sculpt a duplicate of a pen and ink sketch, especially given how much of the iconic parts (head, legs) are from the plastic kit anyway.

IP law, as far as I understand it, allows you create stuff that's pretty damn similar as long as you don't copy it directly. Alas, the question of if CH's tervigon kit infringes is a jury issue. 8 people off the street will figure that out. But the fact that it's hard to tell how similar they look (again, a sculpt vs. pen and ink drawing) is only going to make it tougher to prove that they're exact. I mean, when you have more detail and material than the thing you're allegedly copying, what are you really copying?

As hobbiests, we know what a GW mini should look like. Despite never seeing an official jetbike warlock model, we know what they should be. But that's not a copyright violation IMO: that's just understanding a visual style.

They didn't copyright arrows, fists, dragons and wolves either.
BTW GW started with a range of aftermarket products for D&D, back in the days when WD was an independent miniature and RPG magazine.