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Hulksmash wrote:@Kroothawk

I think you missed my point. Foam cases have been around since before GW. They didn't patent foam cases for miniatures and has nothing to do with their IP. That is where the difference is I believe. Not to mention that Battlefoam uses different sizes and measurements than GW so I don't think it's even an issue in that sense. It's kinda hard to patent a 1"x2" foam rectangle.

But this is the point: different kinds of foam cases are ok, as long as they're not identical. Why aren't different Space Alien Brood Mothers ok? Especially since there is only one?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

insaniak wrote:Meanwhile, GW have a Tervigon kit of their own in the prototype stage. It's much better than CH's conversion kit, but seeing that CH already has a kit on the market selling for less than their kit would, GW decide it's not worth the production cost of getting their Tervigon into production, and so drop it from the production schedule.

Except they wouldn't, because the majority of 40K players aren't like us and they know that. They know that the majority won't even know that these 3rd Party Groups exist, and will buy anything that's official (just look at the Defiler as an example of this - everyone made their own before it was released, and once it hit shelves, everyone went and bought them anyway).

Right now, sure. But if they wait until these little businesses grow to a point where they are actually a serious immediate threat, they're likely to have missed their chance to actually do something about it...

Kroothawk wrote:Would you call Goodyear, Bridgestone and Michelin parasites because they feed on car customer's needs?

They most certainly fit the definition. If we all woke up tomorrow in a world without wheeled vehicles, those three companies would suddenly have no market for their core product. They exist solely because of all the other companies out there making vehicles that their tyres fit onto.

The word 'parasite' is easily seen to have negative connotations, (although in the interests of keeping the discussion civil, I would ask that people try to keep in mind the usual disclaimers about tone not being conveyed in the written medium, and not try to add inflammatory meaning that isn't actually there in what you're reading) but it is an apt description of any business that exists solely to feed off another company's market.

BTW have a look at this Battlefoam page:
http://battlefoam.com/catalog.php?category=11
Then count the non-marked GW IP references of these GW aftermarket products.
I think it is of exactly the same if not worse level as the former Chapterhouse website.

Hulksmash wrote:I feel that with the rumored Tervigon kit set to release as well as the possible tyrannid bio-weapon upgrade that is also rumoured that yes. GW could have been financially impacted by CH and yes that a third party producing them could impact GW.

They release a codex. This year's sprue space only allows for this many models released for this army. Next year there is sprue space for, ex., a tervigon. Now people have purchased tervigon kits from CH and those that purchase this seperately, instead of just converting an existing model, will probably be less inclined to purchase GW's model not to mention that it's possible they might have to adjust it while in progress to not look like CH's. Costing them more money.

The tervigon set is something which is clearly not an infringement of IP. There isn't a model to be copied and it doesn't look especially like the sketch. Also, it hasn't cost GW anything since it requires the purchase of a GW kit to build.

If CH were offering it as a complete model then it might cost GW some sales. But then it would be an entirely original model that players may choose to use as a substitute and there is nothing that GW could do about it.

RiTides wrote:

Da Boss wrote:My hope is that the outcome is something reasonable, like CH using generic terms and avoiding the use of GW specific bits and kits in their advertising.

Voice of reason... is that you??

(But seriously, that's what I hope for, too)

this is my hope as well. I really like the CH stuff and the idea of 3rd party companies making bits. In a perfect world I'd like to see GW find a way to still protect there IP while also working closer with these 3rd party type companies.

@Polonius

Because they didn't label it a Alien Brood Mother

That's pretty much my stance on it. If they hadn't labelled things like they did on their sight (i.e. tervigon, doom, mycetic (sp?) spore) then I would say GW was in the wrong. However marketing them as GW named products is why I feel like GW is coming after them and where they stepped over the line.

@Kroothawk

GW can claim that it invented the "Tervigon". GW can't claim they invented foam. I see it as a distinction but I could be wrong. Battlefoam doesn't have a single 40k related image on it's website (that I can recall) where as chapterhouse had quite a few including that picture with the walker w/tau models underneath it.

Oddly if you type in Space Marine Shoulder Pad Chapterhouse is #3 on bing. If you type in space marine miniature case battle foam isn't even on the first page (nor is it if you do 40k instead of space marine). The only time BF shows up on page #1 is if you type in 40k foam case. I think this also has something to do with it. Battlefoam isn't piggybacking GW the way that CH is and it would be almost impossible to prove that people think it's official GW product or that they have taken a loss.

I guess we'll see if GW goes after BF but I don't see that truly happening. And I wouldn't be surprised if BF had spoke w/GW before doing anything. I thought I heard something about that back when they were getting started but I could be wrong and often am.

Again, all of the above is just personal opinion.

@Scott

Wouldn't be for sure if they labeled it alien birthing queen. But since they named it after something GW created (not sure on how IP works in regards to translation from print to tangible items) there might be something to it. Or not

Honestly I'm just in it for good discussion either way.

Didn't Battlefoam run into IP issues when they mooted (or actually did it, I'm not sure) etching Imperial Aquila and other GW type icons into their foam?

Yeah, I thought they initially thought they were getting permission and when it didn't come thru they pulled the etching of non-custom icons into their product.

Thought so - I guess that's where the line is drawn. There's nothing to say you can't muscle into the market where there is a niche to be exploited; just you can't go around using GW terminology and imagery to sell your stuff.

I guess if they rebranded everything Space Elf and Alien Brood etc then all would have been good.

Pretty much. And if they hadn't done that and then ignored C&D letters could you blame GW for going after them?

*Not that C&D letters have been confirmed to have been received by CH*

Hulksmash wrote:@Polonius

Because they didn't label it a Alien Brood Mother

That's pretty much my stance on it. If they hadn't labelled things like they did on their sight (i.e. tervigon, doom, mycetic (sp?) spore) then I would say GW was in the wrong. However marketing them as GW named products is why I feel like GW is coming after them and where they stepped over the line.

So what? You can't cant' claim that CH is ripping off the GW Tervigon when there isn't a GW tervigon. It's sticky, as GW has this idea of a large brood mother, and describes it, but hasn't made one. I think this is where common law trademark kicks in, because they didn't register it, but again, you can only trademark a fairly specific use. So the rules for a tervigon, or the sketch. But the model for one might be a grayer area.

I'll definitely agree that calling it a "brood mother conversion kit" would have been wiser.

Well, if the C&D said to cease and desist making the parts they're making... no, I can't blame them for ignoring it.

The "I told you so's" bother me a bit in this... if you never wanted to make 3rd party parts for GW games, you wouldn't be in this situation (and aren't). CH has decided to, and has decided to persist in it, and it's up to the courts (or lawyers via settlement) to decide it now.

Hulksmash wrote:Pretty much. And if they hadn't done that and then ignored C&D letters could you blame GW for going after them?

*Not that C&D letters have been confirmed to have been received by CH*

Well yes and no; I still think GW are being a little heavy handed about it all. I can't help think they would foster a better spirit and better customer relations (and ultimately more sales) if they tried to engage and cooperate with the community and 3rd party vendors rather than treating them like red-headed step-children.

filbert wrote:

Hulksmash wrote:Pretty much. And if they hadn't done that and then ignored C&D letters could you blame GW for going after them?

*Not that C&D letters have been confirmed to have been received by CH*

Well yes and no; I still think GW are being a little heavy handed about it all. I can't help think they would foster a better spirit and better customer relations (and ultimately more sales) if they tried to engage and cooperate with the community and 3rd party vendors rather than treating them like red-headed step-children.

There is no money, only hassle and loss of control, to be had in working with small companies like CH. GW wasn't going to license them or anything, it'd be stupid of them.

License no, tolerate maybe - especially if GW had decided that the custom shoulder pads market was too small for them to bother with.

I couldn't really decide. I like chapter house. But I like GW.
I like Chapter Houses stuff and I like GW's stuff.
....
I cannot decide.

Asherian Command wrote:I couldn't really decide. I like chapter house. But I like GW.
I like Chapter Houses stuff and I like GW's stuff.
....
I cannot decide.

Let me help:

If GW wins, chapterhouse is likely to fold.

If chapter house wins, GW is probably not going to change anything.

If the case is settled, than chapter house will likely be able to produce some or most of the models, but market them differently.

Then chapter house.

@Polonius

I recognize it as a grey area. I just know how my vote would come down on a jury in regards to this in any industry without a prescedent to point to. Just personal opinion really

@Rtides

I would depend on what the C&D, if it exists, said. But it all really could have been avoided if they didn't wave it in GW's face.

In general,

I'm hoping they manage to settle out and that GW accepts the name change and removal of all GW related advertisement info from the site and allows CH to continue but with some models removed.

These are basically my views on this:

brettz123 wrote:I think it has a lot to do with them starting to release entire models meant to be specific codex entries. See the following link to a Doom of Malantai model that they posted on 6 December.

http://chapterhousestudios.com/webshop/news/29-dooms-day-is-near

Seems to me that GW decided enough was enough.

Kanluwen wrote:There is no way that GW considers Chapterhouse "competition" in the same sense that they would Privateer Press.

I simply pointed out that the poster whose statement I was replying to was delusional. Chapterhouse isn't a "competing game system". They're leeching upon GW's game system for their customer base.

If this was GW trying to strongarm Privateer Press or Infinity out of existence? Then it would be a completely different situation, and I'd be thoroughly pissed off.

Mastiff wrote:

Amaya wrote:Best thing would be for GW to get Chapterhouse to work for them.

Except that Chapterhouse generally produces lower quality product. Not bad work, but soft edges on items that should be crisp, inconsistent detail and symmetry. The work is very good when it comes to biological (ie. Tyranid) stuff that is very forgiving on these points. But it's not at the same level as GW final product. (yes, I fully admit GW has released some utter abominations).

EDIT: Also, what Redbeard said below.

....
I don't WANT Games Workshop to win, but I believe they have a strong case and are CORRECT in these grounds, particularly when Chapterhouse displays/advertises their models/parts on Games Workshop models or releases models that ARE specific GW unit entries (eg. DoM).
I wouldn't mind at all, Chapterhouse existing and providing parts such as Shoulder Pads, Heresy-era jump packs and various conversion kits that GW don't cater for and in essence support Games Workshop (in a way) in that consumers need to own the Game Workshop MODELS before using the chapterhouse PARTS.

As I said, I don't WANT Chapterhouse to hit the dust, nor do I WANT Gamesworkshop to win, but I believe in this circumstance GW is right in their claims.

I want GW to win this one. I'm all in favour of after-market stuff in general. I buy parts for my Harley from after-market companies, I buy after-market guitar parts, and have bought other after-market hobby stuff.

But, in this case, I believe chapterhouse went too far in using GW IP. I make my living in the IP world, and I simply cannot support anyone that I believe is violating someone elses rights like this. They need to be a lot smarter about what they're making and how they're selling it.

Wouldn't the 'reference material' for the tervigon be the sketch I've heard is in the Tyranid Codex?

It sounds kind of like how I've heard 'Reverse Engineering' has to be done to be 'clean'. In that field, engineering an electronic component to replace an existing widget, one team dissassembles the component to be duplicated, writes detailed specifications, then hands the specs to another team that implements them.


In this specific case, I'd guess the sketch (which I haven't seen) could count as protected material and would be treated the same as if CH had sculpted almost-but-not-quite copies of GW models.

On the other hand, if they worked off the description, giving it their own spin, that's fine with me.

Of course, I'm not a lawyer, certainly not the judge in the case.

Hulksmash wrote:Wouldn't be for sure if they labeled it alien birthing queen. But since they named it after something GW created (not sure on how IP works in regards to translation from print to tangible items) there might be something to it. Or not

No argument on that - I think that is EXACTLY what has got them into this position.

Compare to these guys: http://www.the2blackdragons.com/english/hauptseiten/black_dragons_english.htm They're very careful not to use trademarks.
Dark Elves = Elves of the Night
Skaven = Ratmen
etc

Hulksmash wrote:@Kroothawk
GW can claim that it invented the "Tervigon". GW can't claim they invented foam. I see it as a distinction but I could be wrong. Battlefoam doesn't have a single 40k related image on it's website (that I can recall) where as chapterhouse had quite a few including that picture with the walker w/tau models underneath it.

Do I get you right:
1.) Naming a product a "Tervigon conversion kit" is illegal and stupid and parasitic, because GW can claim that it invented the "Tervigon" (plus perhaps can claim to have invented toy soldiers but not foam).
2.) Naming a product "DARK ELDAR WYCHES FOAM TRAY" ( http://battlefoam.com/catalog.php?item=471&catid=11&ret=catalog.php%3Fcategory%3D11 ) is okay, because that name is obviously generic with no connection to GW products.

Scott-S6 wrote:

Hulksmash wrote:Wouldn't be for sure if they labeled it alien birthing queen. But since they named it after something GW created (not sure on how IP works in regards to translation from print to tangible items) there might be something to it. Or not

No argument on that - I think that is EXACTLY what has got them into this position.

Compare to these guys: http://www.the2blackdragons.com/english/hauptseiten/black_dragons_english.htm They're very careful not to use trademarks.
Dark Elves = Elves of the Night
Skaven = Ratmen
etc

bad example, first thing I clicked on, Chaos had "pick your preferred god" with the five GW symbols as the links

Edit: cool minis though

As much as I don't want GW to win, as I think some of CH stuff is really good (I love the heresy marine heads), but I think they will. It's a shame really, if GW did not charge so much for their stuff more people would be able to buy and take part in such a wonderful hobby.

Hopefully an agreement can be made where they let them re-name their products, but CH have been a little silly compared to other 3rd party companies.

If GW do win I hope they don't use it as an excuse to try and take out all 3rd party companies as some of the stuff that done is really good and gives variety to the game(s) as a whole and quite frankly would just suck the fun out of the hobby.

I have to laugh at one of GW's points as someone mentioned early in this thread

Scott-S6 wrote:
3. Chapterhouse shouldn't be allowed to sell bits because it makes it harder for us to possibly sell those bits in the future if we decide to get around to it - absolutely ridiculous.

As if GW plan on making every single bit for all their fluff...not a chance...and not able to sell it again ridiculous, alot of people buy gw stuff, I do not, direct as its cheaper, but generally GW stuff is better.

@Kroothawk

First off don't put words in my mouth. I never called them parasitic or said it was illegal. I've been pretty firmly on the side of the courts will decide but that I think GW is in the right but that this is a grey area.

Secondly read everything instead of cherry picking. It's the combined use of imagery and names that have landed CH in this. Well that and creating whole models for currently unmade models from GW publications.

But I'm not a lawyer and don't pretend to be. Perhaps you could explain your position on this whole thing Kroot instead of sniping at people who are willing to discuss it?

@Hulksmash:
Well, I did it extensively in the other thread, but here you are:

1.) What is really going on is blurred by the fact that GW's lawyers have obviously no idea what they are talking about ("Carniflex", sueing the wrong sculptor, claiming the Superheavy is a copy of a GW product). As seems usual for US lawsuits, they throw everything they can imagine at whoever they make out as a target, hoping that the others are shocked and awed, settle this out of court and do things they are not legally bound to do. Given the US law system favoring the rich, this might work.

2.) GW's legal position seems to be that all conversions are illegal in principle, but not sued if done with GW parts and for private use only. This position and this specific lawsuit imply that GW sees every aftermarket for their products as illegal and endangering "the hobby". I am convinced that they can't convince any court that an aftermarket is illegal per se, even if they claim their plastic toy soldiers to be luxury products or art.

3.) The aftermarket enriches "the hobby", provides many products GW will never make and some, GW will eventually make. Some people started 1000 Sons or Salamander armies just because of non-GW bitz making it possible, with GW profiting the most. Even non-GW Tervigon or HPA models are used in GW armies, with most people preferring the official model or even buy it in addition to the unofficial one (being usable for tourney, better fitting the official design and often even being cheaper). Personally I have 2 non-GW HPAs and will buy the GW one as well, same with the Tervigon. Claiming that the dominant GW has any economic damage by the aftermarket is ridiculous. The opposite is true. BTW, GW started with aftermarket products for D&D.

4.) It is a hobby that should encourage creativity among kids and adults, the more the better. Sending lawyers out to bully around, hunt down small aftermarket companies and decrease the diversity of "the hobby" is not helpfull and eventually damaging GW's reputation as a toy soldier manufacturer.

5.) Of course GW has a right to sue copies of their products and designs. In Germany, it takes at least 10% creative changes to make it not a copy. Chapterhouse products show considerable more creativity than that or use generic non-copyrighted symbols like arrows, fists, dragons or wolves. I don't care how the products are called and how much TM, C, or other signs are added, as long as the products are available. As only advanced gamers use these parts, there is absolutely no danger of mixing it up with official products, whatever they are called. Same with Battlefoam and all other aftermarket companies.

6.) If GW continues to go the despot way and fire creative minds (Rick Priestley et al), muzzle the remaining staff, tolerate mismanagement by managers not familiar with the toy industry, ignore marketing, ignore sales and customer number decline, ignore customer feedback, and bully everyone in the toy industry, they deserve the image of the "bad company" and deserve the decline. GW is strong enough to go the freedom loving way though, freeing their staff of current chains and encouraging creativity in their own company and in the aftermarket as well, making everyone and "the hobby" profit from it. This is called synergy.

That's about it.

Kroothawk wrote:

6.) If GW continues to go the despot way and fire creative minds (Rick Priestley et al), muzzle the remaining staff, tolerate mismanagement by managers not familiar with the toy industry, ignore marketing, ignore sales and customer number decline, ignore customer feedback, and bully everyone in the toy industry, they deserve the image of the "bad company" and deserve the decline. GW is strong enough to go the freedom loving way though, freeing their staff of current chains and encouraging creativity in their own company and in the aftermarket as well, making everyone and "the hobby" profit from it. This is called synergy.

That's about it.

This is what I have been trying to say, albeit 100% more eloquently. Cheers Kroot! The point being is that there is enough pie to go around (and plenty of pieces of pie that GW don't want to bother with) without them having to jump to legal factor 10 and sue everything in sight.

Kroothawk wrote:BTW have a look at this Battlefoam page:
http://battlefoam.com/catalog.php?category=11
Then count the non-marked GW IP references of these GW aftermarket products.
I think it is of exactly the same if not worse level as the former Chapterhouse website.

Depends what we're counting as "IP references".....

Dark Eldar - 6 times, including sub-section heading. Actual trademark, according to the legal page on GW. No indication of TM being used.
Hellion - 2 times.
Reaver jetbike - 2 times.
Jetbike - 1 time. 3 times if you include "Reaver jetbike" in the count.
Raider - 2 times.
Talo - 1 time. Guessing plural for Talos? Not sure if this counts as an IP reference, as I don't have the DE book to check.
Raveger - 1 time. Due to an inability to spell, Battlefoam are OK on this one.
Wyches - 1 time.

Dark Eldar was the only one I spotted on the GW Legal pages as a specified trademark.

Also, at no point does their disclaimer at the bottom of the page reference anything other than Battlefoam's own IP.