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Polonius wrote:

Mr Mystery wrote:Indeed. The context of 'pre-heresy' armour is GW's IP, as in terms of wargaming, pre-heresy is distinctly 40k.

I really don't mean to pick on you, but you should post "Disclaimer: I don't know anything about IP law" in every single one of your posts. Somebody might actually listen to something you say.

Thanks for bringing some reason into this thread.

Maybe you can answer a specific question that is relevant here:
GW claims to have either R, C, or TM on the word Tau (relevant as one walker was said to be used with Tau):
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=&pIndex=4&aId=3900002&multiPageMode=true&start=5
On the other hand I can't find any real reference to that IP protection (e.g. here http://www.warrealm.iwarp.com/ and here http://www.hiveworldterra.co.uk/GWtm.html ) and remember that it was far too generic to be IP protected, therefore the name change to "Tau Empire". If they claim something false like that, is this illegal and would it have influence on the lawsuit?

Pleadings (documents such as claims, answers, counterclaims, etc. that initiate or respond to a law suit) and Motions (documents, often supported by briefs, that ask the judge to make specific rulings at certain times) all are held to the pains and penalties of perjury. Which means that intentionally making a false statement could result in criminal charges, a complaint against the attorney filed with their state supreme court, etc.

Making a fairly preposterous claim isn't perjury though. I mean, if you had to prove that you owned something before you could sue to recover something, very little could happen.

All you need is a "colorable" claim. Keep in mind that there is federal, registered trademark protection, and common law, state level trademark protection. GW doesn't need to register "tau" to claim that using it to promote high tech sci-fi alien models is a violation of their IP.

And here's where things can get interesting: GW could put the chapterhouse guys on the witness stand (the fifth amendment doesnt' apply to civil matters) and ask them, "why did you say you could use this walker with Tau?"

^^This would make me chuckle. Didn't know that 5th amendment didn't apply in civil matters.

Hands up if your head hurts!

Oddly this is much more on point than the GK rumor threads....now those are making my head hurt. This is merely entertaining.

Mr Mystery wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:Still dancing around the fact that GW doesn't own the IP on arrows, fists and dragons? But implying with the Ford example that CH puts "Games Workshop" on their products?

GW does indeed own IP on Salamanders, Eldar, Space Wolves, Flesh Tearers etc. All of which CH had no hesitance in slapping on their products. If they hadn't done this, then fair enough. But they have. It's the same reason Ford cannot make a car, and call it an Impreza, and Subaru couldn't return the favour with a Focus of their own. They both make cars, they both have their own branding.

Triumph toledo / seat toledo your point was

Polonius wrote:Pleadings (documents such as claims, answers, counterclaims, etc. that initiate or respond to a law suit) and Motions (documents, often supported by briefs, that ask the judge to make specific rulings at certain times) all are held to the pains and penalties of perjury. Which means that intentionally making a false statement could result in criminal charges, a complaint against the attorney filed with their state supreme court, etc.

Making a fairly preposterous claim isn't perjury though. I mean, if you had to prove that you owned something before you could sue to recover something, very little could happen.

All you need is a "colorable" claim. Keep in mind that there is federal, registered trademark protection, and common law, state level trademark protection. GW doesn't need to register "tau" to claim that using it to promote high tech sci-fi alien models is a violation of their IP.

And here's where things can get interesting: GW could put the chapterhouse guys on the witness stand (the fifth amendment doesnt' apply to civil matters) and ask them, "why did you say you could use this walker with Tau?"

At the risk of going all 'Scanners', a follow up question.

If I read this right (chances are slim) IP can be applied to specific concept, in this case a technologically advanced Alien species, called Tau. And they don't have to register this? They just sort of get it?

And if GW did call CH to the stand to ask that question, what bearing would that have on the case?

Mr Mystery wrote:At the risk of going all 'Scanners', a follow up question.

If I read this right (chances are slim) IP can be applied to specific concept, in this case a technologically advanced Alien species, called Tau. And they don't have to register this? They just sort of get it?

And if GW did call CH to the stand to ask that question, what bearing would that have on the case?

Quite the opposite. You can't copyright an idea, only it's expression. you can patent an idea, but only if it's useful. Trademarks are for names. So, GW can claim a trademark for their name for an advanced alien species. Which means that if you try to market advanced alien tech using the name Tau, you are using GW's IP. Keep in mind that this sort of nominal use is often legal.

EURGH! *head explodes*

Good lord this is confusing!

Mr Mystery wrote:EURGH! *head explodes*

Good lord this is confusing!

Yup - and this is why I'm trying to avoid making up my mind either way as to whether they're in the right or wrong, and merely concentrating on commenting upon this I can prove to be false (i.e., that certain items produced by CH are identical to items produced by GW).

Identical no, but very deliberately imitating.

Kind of bemused by the interest this is generating in both this forum and News and Rumours. I'm not overly bothered either way but guess I'll keep an eye out for the outcome nonetheless.

Flashman wrote:Kind of bemused by the interest this is generating in both this forum and News and Rumours. I'm not overly bothered either way but guess I'll keep an eye out for the outcome nonetheless.

well i think that EVERYBODY is right on this one - can we leave it there till the results come in? - my head is starting to ache now too... hahahaha

Well, if you read the other thread, I've actually found some statutes and case law on the subject. I mean, I have some legal training, but there are ways to actually predict the outcomes of litigation.

Of course there is Polonius.

Ask the Magic 8-Ball!

dietrich wrote:If only they would settle it Thunderdome style. Two companies enter, only one company leaves. Might makes right and right makes might.

My money would totally be on Chapterhouse. I've never met the CH guys, but most of the GW staffers I know fit one or other of the geek stereotypes (skinny and unathletic or fat, beardy, and unathletic), whereas American wargamers I've met seem far more likely to be ex-Marines, or at least wrestled a little in high school.

Have you people seen the current pending news on the website- It shows a model they made that looks very similar to a Tyranid, and is blatantly described as being used as a Gribble, and they jokingly call it 'The doom of Chapterhouse'. Prehaps it will be.



Here it is in case it is removed soon:

One of the priviledges of running Chapterhouse is the ability to use the minis we create before anyone else can. This last Saturday I was able to put on the table our first alien mini with my tyranid army. I used him as a "Doom of Malantai (SP?)" I have to say it was akin to dropping a nuke on the board. His 6 inch aura ability is lethal when you couple it with a mycotic spore drop.

Production will begin this week, he is a our FIRST single piece pewter model which easily mounts on a 40 mm base (he has 2 tabs to mount in holes) and stands at 90 mm tall (without the base). Take a look below to see the painted version.

Witness "The Doom of Chapterhouse", hehe.

And it has a picture as well- It looks nearly identical to a Zoanthrope.



I do feel sorry for chapterhouse, but they did blatantly display GW CR stuff, and with GWs very strict take on this kind of stuff, I'm not suprised they sued. I think GW will win, but I don't necessarily want them to.

LittleLeadMen wrote:
You can use any/all tropes you want. The issue is when you sell items that are direct knock-offs of another company, or when you use their IP to sell your wares.

To my understanding "knock-offs" are copies of valuable products either made with inferior materials, or sold at a price that is not reflective of the actual esteem associated with the brand.

Chapterhouse doesn't copy GW products. They sell alternative sculpts that are closely associated with something very much like the GW universe, which is not a violation of any moral or legal principle that I'm aware of. You may as well be angry at companies that produce 3rd party Apple peripherals.

Chapterhouse has taken a set of tropes, those established in wargaming by GW, and produces models consistent with them.

LittleLeadMen wrote:
However, I would rather see companies produce their own models, games, backgrounds, etc.

Why do you have a preference at all?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Polonius wrote:
And here's where things can get interesting: GW could put the chapterhouse guys on the witness stand (the fifth amendment doesnt' apply to civil matters) and ask them, "why did you say you could use this walker with Tau?"

If the answer were something along the lines of "Because they're both science fiction models with an Asian aesthetic." or "Because they're both science fiction models." are any laws being explicitly violated, or is this something closer to a matter of judicial discretion?

I hope CH comes out of it well. They are beneficial to the greater hobby, the way some go on it's as if they are stealing food from the mouths of GW. If anything people have probably gone out and bought GW products just to make use of CH parts so it works both ways. GW have put together a questionable lawsuit and are using their typical bullying tactics to 'win' rather than presenting a reasonable case. It would be nice to see something turn out for the good of the hobby and not to suit GW's paranoid need to control customer choice. It's all about them needing to continually define "the hobby" as "the GW hobby" and keep a tight grip on everything therein, but wargaming and model making existed a long time before GW and will likely do so when they are gone, converting and kitbashing is "the hobby". This scaremongering argument that if GW lose it will result in GW losing their IP or it being tantamount to giving the whole world a free pass copy their models and do whatever they like isn't true. What's closer to the truth is that very little will change either way regardless of the outcome of this case, other than the continued availability of CH products.

Howard A Treesong wrote:I hope CH comes out of it well. This scaremongering argument that if GW lose it will result in GW losing their IP or it being tantamount to giving the whole world a free pass copy their models and do whatever they like isn't true.

Noone has said that "CH winning means GW loses their IP FOREVER!".

They've said it results in the dilution of the protection granted to their IP.

It means(at least in my limited understanding) that GW would have a harder and harder time against actual, full breaches regarding the usage of their IP by opposing companies for profit.

It's like(again, my limited understanding) Xerox being unable to stifle competing companies using the appearance and expression of their product and remarketing it as "Dave's Magical Copying Machine".

Kanluwen wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:I hope CH comes out of it well. This scaremongering argument that if GW lose it will result in GW losing their IP or it being tantamount to giving the whole world a free pass copy their models and do whatever they like isn't true.

Noone has said that "CH winning means GW loses their IP FOREVER!".

They've said it results in the dilution of the protection granted to their IP.

It means(at least in my limited understanding) that GW would have a harder and harder time against actual, full breaches regarding the usage of their IP by opposing companies for profit.

It's like(again, my limited understanding) Xerox being unable to stifle competing companies using the appearance and expression of their product and remarketing it as "Dave's Magical Copying Machine".

You're conflating a few concepts. If CH wins, that means that what they did was OK. And only that. GW could immediatly refile if CH goes over the line even a little bit more.

Xerox is what is known as a potential genericized trademark, which means that it can be used without fear of dilution. Essentially the mark became so famous that it began to outgrow the niche it represents. Things like kleenex instead of facial tissue, chapstick instead of lip balm.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genericized_trademark

Actually, the real generic trademarks are ones we dont' even think of. Things like Kerosene or Aspririn. Tehy are so generic now that anybody can sell "aspirin"

My two penneth with my ultra basic law knowledge

Chapterhouse have broken ip law , and have had plenty of chances to rectify this a la change names and have plenty of disclaimers. but i don't think they have done anything wrong with the super heavy walker as it does look tau-y but its not covered in tau symbolism ,

I would like chapterhouse to pull through and continue business but i believe gw are i the right.

blackclaw1 wrote:My two penneth with my ultra basic law knowledge

Chapterhouse have broken ip law , and have had plenty of chances to rectify this a la change names and have plenty of disclaimers. but i don't think they have done anything wrong with the super heavy walker as it does look tau-y but its not covered in tau symbolism ,

I would like chapterhouse to pull through and continue business but i believe gw are i the right.

Until a court has ruled on this civil matter, we can't say if they have or have not broken any of the numerous laws regarding Intellectual Property, trademarks or copyright, blackclaw1 - this is part of the reason theire's 40 pages of discussion regarding the matter across two threads at the moment, it isn't cut and dried.

First of lets make things clear. I have not bought any chapterhouse bits, nor do I intend to.
I play orks, and they don’t make anything I need.

A lot of comparisons have been made with car parts, and fish. So I’ll start with cars

Edelbrock Make parts for Chevy’s etc, and are advertised as such. They don’t seem to have a problem, GM seems ok with this.

The 1970s was a great time for British custom cars, ford was winning at rallying.
Had a good range of cars, And the best known in England was the escort.
This came in three versions 1100/1300, 1600 (Mexico), and RS1600 (race rally special)

There were visual differences between the models, the 1600 models had larger wheels and the RS had large flared arches. Both had a revised dash, (separate oil temp gauges etc).
So companies started producing spoilers, replacement dashboards and flared arch kits, some of which were direct copies of the ford product. (Talk about stealing someone’s IP).
Ford certainly had the funds to sue these people. But they didn’t.
WHY?
1 It would show ford in a bad light.
2 Most people couldn’t afford afford a RS 1600, so sales wouldn’t have improved.
3 They sold thousands of 1100/1300 escorts to people, who wanted to bolt these bits on.
Most of if not all of these kits mentioned ford/escort/RS1600/ in their advertising.
Most where sold as fitting the ford escort or make your escort look like a RS1600
Ford knew that it would be hard to prove there case. As saying something fits something else is fair use.

Now for the fishy bit

People have likened CH to a parasite fish the remora,
The relationship between shark and remora is more of a symbiotic one.
The remora does things for the shark it can’t do for it’s self.
Like cleaning its teeth and gills.
Maybe GW could learn something there

Oh and Thank you for your time in researching this Polonius. I have enjoyed your posts, most enlightening.

Hi all.
I think I may have found the crux of the problem.(I am not an IP lawyer but looked at the difference between chapterhouse and other companies NOT being sued...)
Lots of companies make ancillery and suplimentry products to be used with other companies products .They are not constantly being sued .

As far as I am aware GW is stating Chaptehouse is in breach or tradmark laws for using GW trademarks for 'advertising' chapterhouse products.(Paraphasing loads of lawyer speak.)

Where as Chapterhouse is claiming the use of tradmark to show intended use.

Using the 'body-kit' company relationship with car manufacturers listed above by Loki.

Speed Sports Body kits .
Give your car the look of a winning Rally car!
Our 'Rally Pack' will fit Ford Escort 1100,1300 and 1600.(The Ford Escort RS 2000 doesn't need it!)

This is fair use of trade mark to show intended use.

Where as
Ford RS 2000 Body kits.
The Ford RS 2000 body kits will for all type of Ford Escort Cars.

This is using Ford Trade Marks (Escort RS 2000) . And could imply Ford endorcement licence or even manufacture of the body kits!

Applied to the case in hand.(Just an example NOT based on any actual advert/web page.)

Chapterhouse 28mm Power Armour Shoulder pads.
Get the detail and depth of character you deserve on your minatures !
With this exelent range of Power Armour Shoulder Pads.
Suitable for use with most 28mm minatures, including Games Workshops 40k(tm) Space Marines(tm) , and Chaos Space Marines(tm).

This is a CLEAR case of using a trade mark to illustrate 'intended use'.As it used the trade marks to illustrate what the seller means by a '28mm minature'.By using a well known brand and atributing the trademark to the owning company.

Where as...

Warhammer 40k (c)(tm) Space Marine (tm) Shoulder Pads.
We have a wide range of Space Marine(tm) and Chaos Space marine (tm) shoulder pads.
That cover all chapters listed in the Warhammer 40k (c)(tm) codexes.

This is NOT just using the trade mark to show intended use.It could cause the reader to think the product is lienced endorsed or even manufactured by GW , as it uses GW trade marks descriptions and terms in the advertising of the product.


Has this made the issue (as I see it) a bit clearer?

I would like BOTH parties to win , by GW letting Chapterhose continue to trade , and Chapterhouse showing more respect for GW trademarks and IP.

But I am reasonable like that ...

TTFN

I think Lanrak has explained one of the issues pretty well,based on my rough reading of the case law.

Kanluwen wrote:

Eldanar wrote:Anyone who thinks that monopolistic or unfair and stifling business practices will not be raised as a counterclaim, I have one name for you: Microsoft.

Microsoft would have been busted up by the U.S DOJ if it had not cut a deal.

I do not necessarily think GW is Microsoft, however, I do think this is an equivalent analogy.

Except it's a terribly wrong analogy.

Microsoft was broken up because of packaging their browser and OS with computer bundles, and making it virtually impossible for the computers to run without them.

GW is not forcing you to play Warhammer or 40k or Lord of the Rings if you want to play a miniatures game.

This is more equivalent to the Xbox 360 v. PS3 v. Nintendo Wii. They're each completely separate systems, with completely different benefits.

Again:
There is no monopoly claim, at all, that is valid in this case. GW does not own the genre of "Tabletop Wargaming". They own Warhammer/40k/LOTR and the models/properties associated with those game systems and universes.

I was not trying to make a claim that there was any monopolistic practice involved here. Obviously, CH and Paulson Games have not yet filed a response, so we have no idea what they might claim. However, the point I was (very poorly) trying to make, that GW stifles and tries to utterly control 3d party business practices is valid. GW has a right to do this to a certain degree, and I respect GW's position. However, to my knowledge, GW has never won a case on the merits concerning its IP. Rather, GW uses its resources to outlast everyone it goes after, and/or to "punish" entities or people who do not adhere to its policies.

Some examples: removal of images from websites; no linking to the GW page from online sellers; restrictions on online sellers pricing; restrictions on BAM store's pricing; GW's noted history of "errors and gaffs" when opening a competing company store in an already existing market with independent retailers; quashing fanzines and fan-made movies, etc. There are probably several other instances as well that I have forgotten.

GW is a large corporate entity and it has basically been taking on small, independent operators; most of whom don't even have an accountant, much less an attorney, and are operating barely above the margins already. Most of these places cannot even afford the retainer fees for a good IP attorney. Add to this that GW has never had to win a case on the merits; all that GW has had to do is just file the Petition, request records, and take depositions. Typically, it's opponent has been worn out by then and is out of money, and is more than willing to settle.

These are similar tactics employed by Microsoft, generally speaking; and it was only after numerous complaints by would-be competitiors, providers and businesses that the Dept. of Justice moved to do something about it; and it was only after the DOJ threatened very strongly to enact anti-trust provisions that Microsoft agreed to "unpackage" its components and applications. (BTW, Microsoft was never broken up, it was only threatened with that action; however, my understanding is that it did have to stop exclusively bundling its products and services and allow 3d party products and services in as part of the agreement).

The analogy I was trying to make was toward the general corporate philosophy and general business practices; not on whether product A is analogous to product B.

given that the judge and the lawyers will be very amused in this case (what we're talking about? Miniatures??? representing aliens and strngely armoured guys???? You're kidding???)....

I hope CH wins ( but It will be difficult)...
I know control agencies have something more serious to do but we can say that GW is making a "dominant position abuse" cause they're using theyr control of the market to decide unilaterally prices. The disallowing of non GW miniatures in tournaments for example is an abuse... impeding other entrepeneurs to produce material for the game is a similar abuse... I know the game is owned by GW, but they own rules and the fluff, not the gamers...
We should be free to use minis from other producers in our game... I know you will say: "you can play another game if you will" but 40k is so popular that right now the market is totally dominated by GW...

punkow wrote:The disallowing of non GW miniatures in tournaments for example is an abuse... impeding other entrepeneurs to produce material for the game is a similar abuse... I know the game is owned by GW, but they own rules and the fluff, not the gamers...
We should be free to use minis from other producers in our game... I know you will say: "you can play another game if you will" but 40k is so popular that right now the market is totally dominated by GW...

Except restaurants tend to get pissy if you walk in with a carry out and sit down. Be it their tournament or store, it's their rules. Like wise, there is a difference between producing material for the game that is your own (say, a new race for instance) and using someone elses IP to make a quick buck.

The restaurants do not control the food market... You're not forced to go at tonio's restaurant if you wanna eat... but if you wanna play 40k you have to go to GW, and, in my opinion, if you wanna play a WARGAME you have to go to GW since WH40K and WHFB are today so relevant that GW substantially has the total control of the market...I obviously do not blame 'em for making such a successful product nor do I say they shouldn't gain from their IP ... but at least they should be forced to sell licenses to other producers, or naturally they will act as monopolist.

I think that CH wouldn't exist if there weren't a demand for products that GW do not make for its own marketing strategy. And even if GW obviously has the right to make its own strategy , It should be allowed to others to fill the "holes" and compete with the big GW... if not GW control prices as it wish and this isn't a good thing for the market...