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spyguyyoda wrote: A Force weapon and a DCCW (which pg 73 states is a power weapon) are two different types of special ccw, and do not convey the extra attack.

Except that they DO. Read the Librarian Furioso Dreadnought entry, which states that they still receive the +1 attack for 2 CCWs despite having to choose which to use.

Albeit, whether GW will decide this ruling will affect Dreadknights is debatable.

spyguyyoda wrote:

Noisy_Marine wrote:Force weapon and bolt pistol gives you plus one attack. So they are not 'special' as you say.

Please actually read the rulebook before telling me I am wrong. The bolt pistol is not a special ccw. That is why you get a bonus.

Edit: pg 42 answers your questions about what is and is not a special ccw. Force weapons and Power weapons are both special ccw. The last paragraph on this page states that two different special ccw never convey bonus attacks. Two of the same special ccw do. A Force weapon and a DCCW (which pg 73 states is a power weapon) are two different types of special ccw, and do not convey the extra attack. If you don't believe me, make a YMDC thread. I am done posting about this here.

Anger is the path to the Dark Side.

Platuan4th wrote:

spyguyyoda wrote: A Force weapon and a DCCW (which pg 73 states is a power weapon) are two different types of special ccw, and do not convey the extra attack.

Except that they DO. Read the Librarian Furioso Dreadnought entry, which states that they still receive the +1 attack for 2 CCWs despite having to choose which to use.

Albeit, whether GW will decide this ruling will affect Dreadknights is debatable.

They do when a specific model has a specific rule saying they do, in exception of the general rule.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Wyomingfox - you;'re wrong: Specific beats general, not codex beats rulebook.

Plasma siphons require you to take a xenos inquisitor, instead of a libby + GKGM. You'll never see a siphon in competitive games, as theyre on a junk model.

Darkwynn - by definition BOTH the doomfist and sword are special CCW, as they are both weapons that do something other than hit people in CC. Doomfists are power weapons and the Sword rerolls hits and misses / AP. So this would mean you have two different CCW and NEVER get the bonus attack.

Trouble is you hop on over to the DCCW section where it states you get +1A for every CCW you have, and this is likely more specific (models with 2 different CCW vs models with 2 different CCW, one of which is a DCCW) so you would still get the attack.

So it essentially makes all DK 10 points more expensive (auto include, effectively) and a hell of a lot sillier looking, as the hammer is NOT big enough!

Just to play devils advocate here and that I don't disagree with you on what your saying but shouldn't they be classified by the special weapons section as Force weapons? They both have Nemesis weapon which makes them force weapons and they have special rules around them but they stilll fall under that force weapon.

BRB pg 42 wrote:
Two different special weapons
When it is their turn to attack, these models must
choose which weapon to use that turn, but they never
get the bonus attack for using two weapons (such is
the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons!).

Have to say that's pretty clear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Darkwynn wrote:Just to play devils advocate here and that I don't disagree with you on what your saying but shouldn't they be classified by the special weapons section as Force weapons? They both have Nemesis weapon which makes them force weapons and they have special rules around them but they stilll fall under that force weapon.

I would argue that according to the rule above you'd have to choose which weapon you would use, Nemesis Sword or NDF to determine which special rule to use. By the same rule, you wouldn't get the additional attack.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Darkwynn wrote:Just to play devils advocate here and that I don't disagree with you on what your saying but shouldn't they be classified by the special weapons section as Force weapons? They both have Nemesis weapon which makes them force weapons and they have special rules around them but they stilll fall under that force weapon.

I would argue that according to the rule above you'd have to choose which weapon you would use, Nemesis Sword or NDF to determine which special rule to use. By the same rule, you wouldn't get the additional attack.

Darkwynn wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Darkwynn wrote:Just to play devils advocate here and that I don't disagree with you on what your saying but shouldn't they be classified by the special weapons section as Force weapons? They both have Nemesis weapon which makes them force weapons and they have special rules around them but they stilll fall under that force weapon.

I would argue that according to the rule above you'd have to choose which weapon you would use, Nemesis Sword or NDF to determine which special rule to use. By the same rule, you wouldn't get the additional attack.

But my argument would be now that there are the following special close combat weapons under page 42.

Power weapons
Lighting claws
Force weapons
Poisoned weapons
Power fist
Thunder hammers
Rending weapons
Witch blades

Now under the Grey knight book these are both Force weapons correct? So now the question comes aren't these the same of the special weapon? I think an argument could be made for a extra attack now. It might not be that case but if you go by RAW its not very clear.

Shrike325 wrote:

Darkwynn wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Darkwynn wrote:Just to play devils advocate here and that I don't disagree with you on what your saying but shouldn't they be classified by the special weapons section as Force weapons? They both have Nemesis weapon which makes them force weapons and they have special rules around them but they stilll fall under that force weapon.

I would argue that according to the rule above you'd have to choose which weapon you would use, Nemesis Sword or NDF to determine which special rule to use. By the same rule, you wouldn't get the additional attack.

But my argument would be now that there are the following special close combat weapons under page 42.

Power weapons
Lighting claws
Force weapons
Poisoned weapons
Power fist
Thunder hammers
Rending weapons
Witch blades

Now under the Grey knight book these are both Force weapons correct? So now the question comes aren't these the same of the special weapon? I think an argument could be made for a extra attack now. It might not be that case but if you go by RAW its not very clear.

I don't get how you're even arguing this:

NORMAL CLOSE COMBAT WEAPONS
Weapons like chainswords, rifle butts, combat blades,
bayonets, etc., do not confer any particular bonus to
the model using them. Remember that, in close
combat, pistols count as normal close combat weapons
and so the Strength and AP of the pistol are ignored.

SPECIAL CLOSE COMBAT WEAPONS
These include more complex and powerful weapons
that enhance the wielder's combat skills and confer
bonuses, and sometimes penalties, to the models using
them. The most widely used are listed below:

Are either the NDF or the sword a normal close combat weapon? No? Good.
Are they the SAME special weapon? As in, do they give the EXACT same bonuses? No? Ok. You don't get a bonus attack.

dont forget, that wielding a storm bolter and a nfw, does NOT count as dual weilding, since a storm bolter is NOT a pistol. the falchions provide the +1A as if you were otherwise dual weilding. simply becasue the model is posed with a storm bolter in a "pistol" style grip does not make it a pistol. its an 24" str 4 ap 5 assault 2 weapon. and therefore does not grant any additonal attacks in CC

90% the same isn't enough. The Sword is a Nemesis Force Weapon that does things that a Nemesis Doom Fist does not. Therefore they are not the same, and don't trigger the "two of the same" clause.

The same logic you are trying to use applies to the following.
A Power Fist is a kind of Power Weapon (first sentence in the Power Fist rules), thus it can be combined with a Power Weapon to get a bonus attack even though it can't be combined with a normal CCW. The exception that you must use two fists is only listed as an exception to Normal + Special.

The weapons on the DK are DCCWs, which also happen to be NFWs.

If they are DCCWs, then they should allow +1A, regardless of any other effects or rules.

DCCWs are a completely different category of weapon not covered by the rules for weapons for normal models. There are lots of DCCWs that have special or extra rules; so the fact that the sword has additional rules over the fist should not negate the fact that they are both still DCCWs and able to provide a bonus for each other. The only thing that might make them also be considered Special Weapons is the fact that they are force weapons. Take the force weapon effect away, and they are still both DCCWs. Therefore, the only thing that might possibly cause them to be also considered SWs is the force weapon aspect. However, the force weapon portion of their rules are identical, so in affect, they are the same type of special weapon, i.e., force weapons. The extra rules and effects they have fall under the purview of DCCWs. Unless there is an argument to be made that a DCCW is an inherent special weapon, which there is simply no basis for in the rules...I, however, think DCCWs have to be treated as a different class of weapon all together; and if a weapon counts as a DCCW, regardless of any other rules it might have, then any other DCCW provides an extra attack, because that is what the BRB says.

Now, as far as making a utility argument that losing the attack somehow differentiates between the two weapon choices in a meaningful way...I can go for that. Although for the cost of the thing, I'd almost expect it to gain the +1A regardless...

You are missing two very important points:

1. Only the Doomfist is a DCCW. The Greatsword and Daemonhammer are not.

2. "A Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon is a Power Weapon..." from pg. 73. Power Weapons are Special CCWs, so DCCWs are as well.

There is no general rule about mixing DCCWs for extra attacks. Each codex where this is an option outlines specifically what the options for extra attacks with DCCWs on Walkers are. And given the Dreadknight isn't a walker none of the rules for walkers would apply anyway.

Sheesh with people not reading that the Special CCW definition then states the following are *examples*, and not an exhaustive list.

Great Sword IS a special CCW, because it fits the definition of one as given on page 42.

Chrysis - I agree that *normally* page 42s restriction on 2 different special CCW (doomfist + hammer, for example) would kick in, HOWEVER:
- DCCW rules state that for every additional CCW (NOT DCCW, *just* CCW) you have you gain +1 attack
- this is more specific (and thus overrides) the rules on page 42:

Models with a DCCW and a different special CCW is more specific than Models with 2 different special CCW

So you still gain the attack. Making the hammer a nobrainer for 10 points.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Sheesh with people not reading that the Special CCW definition then states the following are *examples*, and not an exhaustive list.

Great Sword IS a special CCW, because it fits the definition of one as given on page 42.

Chrysis - I agree that *normally* page 42s restriction on 2 different special CCW (doomfist + hammer, for example) would kick in, HOWEVER:
- DCCW rules state that for every additional CCW (NOT DCCW, *just* CCW) you have you gain +1 attack
- this is more specific (and thus overrides) the rules on page 42:

Models with a DCCW and a different special CCW is more specific than Models with 2 different special CCW

So you still gain the attack. Making the hammer a nobrainer for 10 points.

Actually, to clarify, the DCCW rule on pg 73 of the BRB states:

If a walker is armed with two or more close combat weapons, it gains one bonus attack

It specifically states walker, not model. The FAQ makes it clear that the DCCW does not consider the NDK to be a walker. Therefore there is a valid argument that the NDK loses the bonus attack for having different weapons.

Well hopefully that will put the argument to bed that the only way to get the extra attack will be from equipping 2 doom fists onto the dreadknight.

And GW had the chance to include other options in the FAQ when they specifically stated that the Doomfist configuration gave +1 attack. If they wanted it to be played that other weapons also gave that bonus they would have included them.

Q: If a model with a Nemsesis force halberd has had his Initiative reduced to a fixed number by an ability/special rule, do they still get the +2 Initiative from the Halberd? (p54)
A: No.



Oh, it is ON!

from chaos smurf faq;

Q.Can Ahriman use the same power two or even three times a turn?

A: Powers that are psychic shooting attacks can only be used once per turn. Gift of Chaos can be used multiple times, as it is not a PSA. The same is true for warptime, but of course there is no point in using this power more than once per turn.

New BRB faq

Q Can the same psychic power be cast more than once be cast more than once in a turn?

A No, unless the psychic power itself specifically allows it.


Consistent ah?

Again, clarifying a general rule on way, but clarifying a specific rule another, is not inconsistent.

I mean, the general rule even allows for exceptions (if the power allows it) so it's not like having a caster that allows it is off the charts wierd.

Their motivation in the Chos smurf Faq is "as it is not a PSA"

W40nerd wrote:from chaos smurf faq;

Q.Can Ahriman use the same power two or even three times a turn?

A: Powers that are psychic shooting attacks can only be used once per turn. Gift of Chaos can be used multiple times, as it is not a PSA. The same is true for warptime, but of course there is no point in using this power more than once per turn.

New BRB faq

Q Can the same psychic power be cast more than once be cast more than once in a turn?

A No, unless the psychic power itself specifically allows it.


Consistent ah?

Bless them. That's hilarity.

Well there goes the only reason to take Ahriman.

Unless you go by the old Adage of Codex trumps BRB.

I love the reasoning.

Can Ahriman case Type X psychic powers multiple times? No, because Type X powers can only be used once per turn. (Assumption here being powers of a specific type can only be used once per turn.)

Can the same psychic power be used more than once per turn (so, in theory can Type Y, Type Z etc.)?
No, unless the power specifically allows it.

So Type X, Y and Z can only be used once per turn unless specifying otherwise.

There are no such powers in the Chaos Codex.

Ahriman, you have just been shot down.

Noisy_Marine wrote:Well there goes the only reason to take Ahriman.

Ahriman's rule allowing him to cast multiple times will take precedence over a general rule that applies to all psykers, on account of 'Ahriman' being a more specific set than 'everybody'...

nobody wrote:
Actually, to clarify, the DCCW rule on pg 73 of the BRB states:

If a walker is armed with two or more close combat weapons, it gains one bonus attack

It specifically states walker, not model. The FAQ makes it clear that the DCCW does not consider the NDK to be a walker. Therefore there is a valid argument that the NDK loses the bonus attack for having different weapons.

Fair enough...

W40nerd wrote:from chaos smurf faq;

Q.Can Ahriman use the same power two or even three times a turn?

A: Powers that are psychic shooting attacks can only be used once per turn. Gift of Chaos can be used multiple times, as it is not a PSA. The same is true for warptime, but of course there is no point in using this power more than once per turn.

New BRB faq

Q Can the same psychic power be cast more than once be cast more than once in a turn?

A No, unless the psychic power itself specifically allows it.


Consistent ah?

Ahriman has a specific exception to the general rules.

Platuan4th wrote:

spyguyyoda wrote: A Force weapon and a DCCW (which pg 73 states is a power weapon) are two different types of special ccw, and do not convey the extra attack.

Except that they DO. Read the Librarian Furioso Dreadnought entry, which states that they still receive the +1 attack for 2 CCWs despite having to choose which to use.

Albeit, whether GW will decide this ruling will affect Dreadknights is debatable.

I'm not sure if it's been said yet but walker's rules for CCW are different. It states any set CCW gives the bonus; not just a pair of the same.

Literally none of the DCCW rules apply to the doomfist on the Dreadknight as all of them start with "If a walker...". So there's absolutely no reason to label the weapon as a DCCW for the Dreadknight. If they would've mentioned it wasn't a DCCW for the dreaknight or if they had just given him two "nemesis force weapons" then it would've been 1000% less confusing.

Let me start by saying that, in my opinion, the GK codex was very poorly written and remains so even after this FAQ.

Falchions giving only +1A: Not a fan of this change. There is a thread on here somewhere that shows Falchions being slightly less competetive than most of the other NFW's when they granted +2A, and quite underpowered if they granted +1A. I don't think I'll see many GK players using Falchions now, and rightfully so.

Not allowing a shunt during a scout move: I was a proponent of allowing shunting during a scout move. I believe GW made the wrong call here.

Dreadknight hitting at S6: Honestly this one makes sense-- there was little to no reason to use the hammer before. I'm not at all impressed with how they worded the rule, however. They made a very confusing reference the the Dreadnought's CCW, but in the end, there was really no reason to even mention it.

Allowing Dreadnoughts to score via GS: An expected change, although it is at odds with the delicate balance between RAI and RAW.

DK a MC that moves like JI: I always thought this one was a no-brainer.

Not being able to cast the same Psychic Power more than once per turn: Glad it has been answered, although this heavily nerfs many otherwise very interesting strategies that I've seen GK players using.


Sorry to the GK players who were on the receiving end of these nerfs.

+1A falchions are not a "change". Most of us understood they only gave +1A in the first place, just like any pair of "special" CC weapons like power fists or lightning claws. Once again, people trying to break a new Codex and break the game to the detriment of all of their opponents are disappointed and complaining about a "change" that never happened. If the rule had been read correctly and with reasonable expectations in the first place by those complaining, there wouldn't be any sense of disappointment for them now. And for the record if it matters, I have a Grey Knights army and I never believed the rules in my Grey Knights Codex stated or implied +2A falchions.

BrassScorpion, most people were divided on the falchion issue. When you broke down the RAW, falchions pointed to 2 attacks, and when you looked at the fluff, falchions pointed to 2 attacks... but pointing towards one thing and GW's intentions can be different as we see in the FAQ. I agree its not so much a change as a horrible/unclear rule in the first place.

I am the one (or one of the ones) that did the math on Falchions that determined that even with +2 attacks they are not amazing. Worth taking for the points, yes, but game breaking, no. At +1 attack only there is no need to ever take them over either more grey knights or other weapons.