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scuddman wrote:

That said, 12pts for a Bolter wielding 3+/6++sv BS4 Ld8/9 unit with a special (if not 100% reliable) ability is bad at all, I'd take them over many other similarly costed or stat'd units like dire avengers, stomtroopers, carapace vets, SM scouts, etc.

Dire avengers, storm troopers, carapace vets, and sm scouts are considered uncompetitive.

WHen they are taken, they tend to be taken as minimum sized squads to either max out heavy weapons or max out transports.

True, and even these supposedly nerfed SoB's are significantly better. They are one of the few units that GW doesn't totally screw up in that points range. GW does elite infantry and weeny infantry well, but never gets the medium units right.

That being said, scouts and carapace vets are a much better buy than SoB imo. Scouts have atsknf, access to sniperrifles, missile launchers, and camo cloaks, as well as a marine stat line.

Sniper rifles are sadly rather poopy, and the 3+sv makes all the difference in the world. You don't see Scouts in most competitive SM armies typically unless they are there to min/max troops.

Vets are vets...just carapace vets are overpriced vets that do the same thing as their 7 point bretheren. Of course, SoB can't take 3 special weapons, a lascannon, and a chimera in a scoring troop choice.

Right, but given the choice between Carapace Vets (practically identical to the Inquisitorial Stormtroopers) and the rumored SoB's and associated Rhino cost reduction, I think you'd see the sisters taken much more often. S4 guns over mostly S3 guns, and most importantly a 3+ save make all the difference in the world, and all you're really losing is 1 special weapon (vets rarely take heavies).

Pretty much every competitive build with dire avengers take 5, no sgt or upgrades just to add another scoring wave serpent.

God, just looked at GW board of directors.... Just 5 members.
Tom Kirby chairman
Mark Wells CEO
Kevin Rountree COO

Independent directors
Chris Myatt
Nick Donaldson

Both of the "independent" members look to be in violation of the the Combined Code because both of them have been on the board over 9 years.

Mark Wells, chief executive officer of Games Workshop, said:
“2010/11 has seen satisfactory performance, driven by improved gross margins and good cost control
leading to a healthy cash inflow. Although sales were down in the first half, Games Workshop
delivered improved results in the second half as the focus on customer service training for Hobby
centre managers and investment in new product development started to feed through into results.
Games Workshop is in good shape. We know what we need to do to remain successful and to grow.”

LOL at that.

JB_Man wrote:They have to get to the battlefield somehow. It's not like they walk all the way out there to begin with; what's to stop their transport from taking them another 36 inches?

By that logic the entire army would need to be mechanized, though.

Nah, delivery is most likely done by transport fliers, though I absolutely do not deem it impossible that the Mistress makes her girls do a forced march as well. It'd just feel to be more brutal, thus fitting. All depending on how far the battlefield is away from their base, of course.

Cages off a truck just short of the battlefield most likely, they ARE repentant aren't they ....

Cages do sound fitting ...

I just remembered these.

NeedleOfInquiry wrote: Not to ask them to fix it, I know GW could care less, but to point out how embarrassing it must be to them to be on the board for a company that is making itself a laughingstock in the industry and to have their name associated with it.

Yes, I'm sure they're embarrassed to be the head of a company with an 85-ish percent market share. God, they must cry themselves to sleep by being the biggest boys on the block. I'm sure having the most successful miniatures company in the world makes them really, really, really, really, really sad.

Kreedos wrote:We all know the rules mongers probably aren't gamers.

Fixed.

Celtic Strike wrote:

NeedleOfInquiry wrote: Not to ask them to fix it, I know GW could care less, but to point out how embarrassing it must be to them to be on the board for a company that is making itself a laughingstock in the industry and to have their name associated with it.

Yes, I'm sure they're embarrassed to be the head of a company with an 85-ish percent market share. God, they must cry themselves to sleep by being the biggest boys on the block. I'm sure having the most successful miniatures company in the world makes them really, really, really, really, really sad.

85 percent market share of what.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Celtic Strike wrote:

NeedleOfInquiry wrote: Not to ask them to fix it, I know GW could care less, but to point out how embarrassing it must be to them to be on the board for a company that is making itself a laughingstock in the industry and to have their name associated with it.

Yes, I'm sure they're embarrassed to be the head of a company with an 85-ish percent market share. God, they must cry themselves to sleep by being the biggest boys on the block. I'm sure having the most successful miniatures company in the world makes them really, really, really, really, really sad.

85 percent market share of what.

Hmmm, I'm not sure, I really thought GW was an airplane manufacturer.
So I assume the recent numbers suggest that they have an 85% share of ALL THE AIRPLANES IN THE WORLD!

Being a minatures company I would assume that they have an 85% market share of minatures sales worldwide. That or airplanes, clearly my previous post hinted strongly towards airplanes.

Celtic Strike wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Celtic Strike wrote:

NeedleOfInquiry wrote: Not to ask them to fix it, I know GW could care less, but to point out how embarrassing it must be to them to be on the board for a company that is making itself a laughingstock in the industry and to have their name associated with it.

Yes, I'm sure they're embarrassed to be the head of a company with an 85-ish percent market share. God, they must cry themselves to sleep by being the biggest boys on the block. I'm sure having the most successful miniatures company in the world makes them really, really, really, really, really sad.

85 percent market share of what.

Hmmm, I'm not sure, I really thought GW was an airplane manufacturer.
So I assume the recent numbers suggest that they have an 85% share of ALL THE AIRPLANES IN THE WORLD!

Being a minatures company I would assume that they have an 85% market share of minatures sales worldwide. That or airplanes, clearly my previous post hinted strongly towards airplanes.

A company with that level of market share would not have the throughput of games workshop. They don't have a fraction of the global miniatures market. Thats such a ridiculously broad and large category that it's practically meaningless. They have a commanding percentage of the Miniatures wargaming market in the U.S. and Europe for fantasy and science fiction settings, but even those numbers are highly suspect and likely don't include many competitors (I doubt they ever included heroclix for instance). Games workshop isn't a large enough company to have that level of global marketshare and it doesn't have a system to track those numbers accurately in any event.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Celtic Strike wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Celtic Strike wrote:

NeedleOfInquiry wrote: Not to ask them to fix it, I know GW could care less, but to point out how embarrassing it must be to them to be on the board for a company that is making itself a laughingstock in the industry and to have their name associated with it.

Yes, I'm sure they're embarrassed to be the head of a company with an 85-ish percent market share. God, they must cry themselves to sleep by being the biggest boys on the block. I'm sure having the most successful miniatures company in the world makes them really, really, really, really, really sad.

85 percent market share of what.

Hmmm, I'm not sure, I really thought GW was an airplane manufacturer.
So I assume the recent numbers suggest that they have an 85% share of ALL THE AIRPLANES IN THE WORLD!

Being a minatures company I would assume that they have an 85% market share of minatures sales worldwide. That or airplanes, clearly my previous post hinted strongly towards airplanes.

A company with that level of market share would not have the throughput of games workshop. The don't have a fraction of the global miniatures market. They have a commanding percentage of the Miniatures wargaming market in the U.S. and Europe, but even those numbers are highly suspect and likely don't include many competitors.

Thats a very good point. Thats the number I heard a few years ago during my training period for a GW store. True, I should have thought my statement through as they are suspect.

Still, either way, they're the biggest boys on the block when it comes to miniature games in US, Europe and Canada and that's nothing to ignore. They're not stupid, I know GW bashing is really popular but they wouldn't still be around if they are all run by the slowed monkeys wearing boxing gloves like the message boards screech that they are.

I also felt the question of market share was unnecessary, hence my pithy response.

Actually it's quite easy for a company to be around despite being led by people who have no damn clue what they're doing.

Remember, this is not a perfectly capitalist society, nor is it one where people have all the information they should have (nevermind have it available to them at the time of purchase). Frequently perception alone drives a company to succeed... even if it's built on a house of cards.

Melissia wrote:Actually it's quite easy for a company to be around despite being led by people who have no damn clue what they're doing.

Remember, this is not a perfectly capitalist society, nor is it one where people have all the information they should have (nevermind have it available to them at the time of purchase). Frequently perception alone drives a company to succeed... even if it's built on a house of cards.

I swore you were somehow going to blame socialism or obama for their continued existence.

No, I'm sane. You're thinking of Tea Party fanatics.

Celtic Strike wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Celtic Strike wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Celtic Strike wrote:

NeedleOfInquiry wrote: Not to ask them to fix it, I know GW could care less, but to point out how embarrassing it must be to them to be on the board for a company that is making itself a laughingstock in the industry and to have their name associated with it.

Yes, I'm sure they're embarrassed to be the head of a company with an 85-ish percent market share. God, they must cry themselves to sleep by being the biggest boys on the block. I'm sure having the most successful miniatures company in the world makes them really, really, really, really, really sad.

85 percent market share of what.

Hmmm, I'm not sure, I really thought GW was an airplane manufacturer.
So I assume the recent numbers suggest that they have an 85% share of ALL THE AIRPLANES IN THE WORLD!

Being a minatures company I would assume that they have an 85% market share of minatures sales worldwide. That or airplanes, clearly my previous post hinted strongly towards airplanes.

A company with that level of market share would not have the throughput of games workshop. The don't have a fraction of the global miniatures market. They have a commanding percentage of the Miniatures wargaming market in the U.S. and Europe, but even those numbers are highly suspect and likely don't include many competitors.

Thats a very good point. Thats the number I heard a few years ago during my training period for a GW store. True, I should have thought my statement through as they are suspect.

Still, either way, they're the biggest boys on the block when it comes to miniature games in US, Europe and Canada and that's nothing to ignore. They're not stupid, I know GW bashing is really popular but they wouldn't still be around if they are all run by the slowed monkeys wearing boxing gloves like the message boards screech that they are.

I also felt the question of market share was unnecessary, hence my pithy response.

From a business standpoint they actually are pretty idiotic. There business model is plainly unsustainable and they've been losing sales volume in significant ways over the past few years.

Melissia wrote:No, I'm sane. You're thinking of Tea Party fanatics.

Good, I have a hard time being Irish in America.

I don't think they're idiotic. They may just be clinging to an old business model. It had served them well in the passed and they're probably just reluctant to change. Either that or - shockingly - we don't have all the information and are not the heads of a mulit-national corporation - and they're trying their best in a situation where competition has increased at the same time the global economy has imploded and leaves less money for luxury goods.

So they do their best to make sure we don't want to buy their products, what?

Celtic Strike wrote:

Melissia wrote:No, I'm sane. You're thinking of Tea Party fanatics.

Good, I have a hard time being Irish in America.

I don't think they're idiotic. They may just be clinging to an old business model. It had served them well in the passed and they're probably just reluctant to change. Either that or - shockingly - we don't have all the information and are not the heads of a mulit-national corporation - and they're trying their best in a situation where competition has increased at the same time the global economy has imploded and leaves less money for luxury goods.

They have lost 40% of their sales volume in a few short years due largely to price increases. The industry of miniatures wargaming has had its volume increase according to distributors like alliance, indicating strongly that GW is pricing itself out of it's core market. They are continuing to do this, despite knowing full well that there is a price cieling at which their sales will drop to unsustainable numbers and the game will cease to have the active player base required to actually initiate new players into the hobby. They will then collapse.

They are a shareholder run company that is there purely to sustain profits at this point. Unless a major change in their method of business is made they will go out of business in the next few years. They are a company largely composed of idiots and greed.

ShumaGorath wrote:They are a company largely composed of idiots and greed.

What makes them any different than most every other company out there?

Kreedos wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:They are a company largely composed of idiots and greed.

What makes them any different than most every other company out there?

Some companies are run by normal people and greed, others are run by smart people and greed.

Kreedos wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:They are a company largely composed of idiots and greed.

What makes them any different than most every other company out there?

The part about them running themselves out of business.

All companies are run by greed, that's a job of a company. To make money. It's part of a corporate charter that they have to.

Maybe (probably) they're ill informed and doing things badly but they're not actively trying to destroy us witchhunters players.

They're trying to make money off of us, as they have been from the beginning. They're not going about it the right way in my opinion but none of us here have run a company like that for nearly 35 years. When any of us have then we get to make concrete claims about their business plan.

I too believe they're going about it the wrong way but I - and 99% of the rest of you out there - don't really have the right to say what they should do or expect them to listen.

If you hate the game you can stop playing. Speak with your dollars (Euro, pounds or Canadian and Australian dollars) and stop buying. Don't speak with your fingers and complain on a part of the internet they will never go.

Celtic Strike wrote:They're trying to make money off of us, as they have been from the beginning. They're not going about it the right way in my opinion but none of us here have run a company like that for nearly 35 years. When any of us have then we get to make concrete claims about their business plan.

One does not have to experience something to comment on it.

Or have you yet thrown yourself in front of a moving bus? You can't say that's stupid without doing it, so go on, do it!

Melissia wrote: Or have you yet thrown yourself in front of a moving bus? You can't say that's stupid without doing it, so go on, do it!

I was fairly sure that getting hit by a bus would be painful but until I was actually run over by a drunken redneck in a pick up I had NO real way of comparing them. Then I got to talk from experience, not just supposition and logic exercises.

Celtic Strike wrote:I was fairly sure that getting hit buy a bus would be painful but until I was actually run over by a drunken redneck in a pick up I had NO real way of comparing them.

But you knew that throwing yourself intentionally in front of a bus was a bad idea right?

Right? I AM talking to a sane and intelligent person... aren't I?

Celtic Strike wrote:If you hate the game you can stop playing. Speak with your dollars (Euro, pounds or Canadian and Australian dollars) and stop buying. Don't speak with your fingers and complain on a part of the internet they will never go.

But I like the game, I just don't like the $200 per SoB squad.

Melissia, how many times has someone whose never played your army come up to you and told you how you *Should* have played your game? or worse still, someone whose really new to the hobby telling you what you *Should* do to win. That's really annoying and they don't have any experience do they? Yet you do because you've played them. You know what your army can and can't do, not just look at it from a paper perspective. It's the same thing.

I play tau, I'm sick of having people telling me that if I want to win I have to max out on Firewarrior squads with full upgrades because they're just *So* awesome on paper. Most Tau players know that you should min/max them for suits and broadsides.

I'm not defending them. I'm just saying that our bitching is a pointless and time wasting exercise.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

n0t_u wrote:[ But I like the game, I just don't like the $200 per SoB squad.

I'm right there with ya buddy, I'm right there with ya. lol

Vaktathi wrote:]How often would you be assaulting them however? Relatively infrequently. Most of my games with and against sisters I've generally found it far more advantageous to just lose the squad and shoot the piss out of whatever unit it was that charged in. With the advent of the BP/CCW Chaos marine, BA Troops assault marine, SW Grey Hunter, DE Wyches/Wracks, there are far too many common units that even Seraphim had a difficult time engaging on a favorable basis even when charging, especially how often units like Seraphim get shot to piss before they can do anything in 5E without a transport.

How often? Depends. On situations and units- better to charge some days then get charged....with the old acts no, some of those things were NOT things seraphim would have a hard time with. Never had problems with CSM, or grey hunters, BA assualt marines.

if your seraphim got shot to piss, your using them wrong.

I'm not saying that the BoSL was useless, I'm not. I'm saying that it's not the end of the world that some are making it out to be. Useful yes, good yes. Make or break the unit/army? No. Likewise, while assault grenades may be relatively useless, Krak grenades definitely are not, almost every game with my IG against a late 4E/5E Marine army I lose something to krak grenades. For 1pt more it's not a bad additional attack vector, especially on units that may otherwise be kitted such that they'd have no method of attack against an armored target otherwise.

Almost never used krak- only a handful of times on serpahim. NEVER on sisters. No need with the S5 act. NOT worth one point increase, not with the nerf bat hit overall.

Its not the end of the world no. But worse then you are making it out to be yes.

But would you rather have no acts of faith and NO krak or no acts of faith AND some krak?

ALSO, I didn't INTENTIONALLY get run over by a pick up. The driver and me were having a gentleman's disagreement and that's how he chose to resolve our conversation.

Celtic Strike wrote:Melissia, how many times has someone whose never played your army come up to you and told you how you *Should* have played your game?

So? That doesn't mean that they cannot have any insight into the game.

The fact remains, you know without doing it that jumping off of a skyscraper is probably a bad idea and you shouldn't do it. You know without doing it that stabbing yourself in the eye is a bad idea, and you probably shouldn't do it. You know without doing it that giving all of your life savings to a broke, crack-addict OCD gambler and telling him to share his winnings with you is a bad idea, and you probably shouldn't do it.

Just because you haven't experienced something yourself doesn't mean you should shut up until you have experienced it. Or are you the kind of person who doesn't think a fire is hot until he sticks his hand into it and feels the burn himself?

Because if so, I'll just put you on ignore right now as you are not worth the aggravation of talking to-- I loathe stupid logic like this. It makes me want to tear someone's throat out. But thankfully, unlike people who think like you seem to want to be thinking, I'm smart enough to know that's a bad idea without going out and doing it.

I know, overreacting, but this utterly illogical line of reasoning from you is getting on my nerves.