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Actually, the only real way to know something is to experience it first hand. Can that be taken to extreme? Yes it can but the fact still remains. I'm definite that getting shot is painful, I'll (Hopefully) never know just HOW damn painful it would be until I feel it for myself. It can be described to me vividly but I'll never know (Once again, hopefully) for myself.

We can give GW business advice all day long, they'll never listen so why even bother?

Is it lonely on your pedestal?

Man, I've never been part of an Internet disagreement before. I can see why my friend spends so much time on Reddit

Celtic Strike wrote:Actually, the only real way to know something is to experience it first hand.

No, it's not. I don't have to shoot myself in the face to know that metal shards entering my body at a high velocity are bad news.

Because I'm not stupid. I, like all but the most unfortunate humans, am gifted with intellectual and logical facilities that allow me to understand something without experiencing it.

We should probably take this to off topic.

Is it lonely? Yes, we know it's painful. I never said it wasn't. My point was, how do we know *How* painful?

Can a man really, really, really know what its like to birth a child? The pain and emotion that comes along with it? No they can't, wouldn't you prefer that they don't talk about it because they're wasting their time? We're wasting our time bitching at GW.

I agree with you Melissia. This is off topic and not constructive.

The fact remains, however, that we are both going to keep playing sisters aren't we?

The difference between the pain of stabbing yourself in the leg and shooting yourself in the leg is irrelevant.

Celtic Strike wrote:
We can give GW business advice all day long, they'll never listen so why even bother?

Well in fairness most of you give god awful advice about business matters and game balance.

Celtic Strike wrote:The fact remains, however, that we are both going to keep playing sisters aren't we?

I stopped playing Sisters sometime in Dec of last year. I stopped buying Sisters a year before that.

The army was old, stale, overpriced, and underpowered. Now it's new, stale, even MORE overpriecd, and even more underpowered.

Anyway, the comparison to gray hunters is not okay. We all know they're a point or two undercosted for their abilities.

I think comparing SOB's to Firewarriors or Dire Avengers is a better idea.

For 2 pts more Sisters get a 6++, +1 I, +1 WS, +1 BS, +1 SV and +1 LD. They lose the Pulse rifle but gain grenades, pistol and an act of faith.

For 2 points


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[quote=Melissia I stopped playing Sisters sometime in Dec of last year. I stopped buying Sisters a year before that.

The army was old, stale, overpriced, and underpowered. Now it's new, stale, even MORE overpriecd, and even more underpowered.

ShumaGorath wrote:This entire argument is idiotic, 30-40 point increase in your full 2000 point army for the grenades and 6+ saves is a wash. You roll three sixes in the entire game and you made those points back.

Unless you make those 3 six saves at the wrong time when you want something to break.

But ifi ts idiotic, why are you participating in it?

carmachu wrote: Unless you make those 3 six saves at the wrong time when you want something to break. But ifi ts idiotic, why are you participating in it?

Yes, but imagine how much your opponent will want to break something if you make them at the *Right* time? That's why I play this game, for crazy gak to happen like that.

Celtic Strike wrote:For 2 pts more Sisters get a 6++, +1 I, +1 WS, +1 BS, +1 SV and +1 LD. They lose the Pulse rifle but gain grenades, pistol and an act of faith.

Tactical Marines gain +1 I, +1 WS, +1 BS, +1 S, +1 T, Combat Tactics, ATSKNF, and a free heavy/special weapon for merely four points more than Sisters-- oh, and their frags and bolt pistols are actually useful to them, unlike Sisters. Tactical Marines must be overpowered/underpriced.

Pure points analysis without context is completely and utterly worthless, and always has been.

Celtic I thought every sisters player had Melissia on ignore except for those of us who loved the drama she creates. Every time I come here and find a sisters thread I look forward to the argument she will create before I even open the thread.

Violation of Rule Number One. ~Manchu

IcedAnimals wrote:Celtic I thought every sisters player had Melissia on ignore except for those of us who loved the drama she creates. Every time I come here and find a sisters thread I look forward to the argument she will create before I even open the thread.

This is the first time I've participated in a debate online. lol. I didn't know. Why didn't you warn me?

IcedAnimals wrote:Celtic I thought every sisters player had Melissia on ignore except for those of us who loved the drama she creates. Every time I come here and find a sisters thread I look forward to the argument she will create before I even open the thread.

Not every thread I participate in has drama. But there's a lot of trolls on Dakka, and I admittedly feed them (or simply fall prey to their tricks) far too often.

That discussion earlier had nothing to do with Sisters. It was a philosophical thing. As a student in general and a self-professed scholar (in that I love collecting knowledge in the various sciences and other scholarly pursuits) I LOATHE the inane and intellectually lame mindset of "I don't know anything until I've experienced it".

Celtic Strike wrote:

IcedAnimals wrote:Celtic I thought every sisters player had Melissia on ignore except for those of us who loved the drama she creates. Every time I come here and find a sisters thread I look forward to the argument she will create before I even open the thread.

This is the first time I've participated in a debate online. lol. I didn't know. Why didn't you warn me?

Because it's entertaining at times, though generally she has the right idea anyway?
I play SoB and have an empty ignore list, nice blanket statement.

Actually, not to use my new Statistics classes for evil I came up with this handy, dandy chart:

11 Firewarriors, 1 Shas'el (Rapid fire range)
Pts: 130
MEQ kills: 2.61
Kills per point spent: 0.0201

10 gray hunters, 2 flamers (Subjective, averaging 4 hits per)
Pts: 150
MEQ kills: 3.07
Kills per points spent: 0.0204

9 Sisters, Vet Sister, Flamer, H. Flamer (Subjective again I know)
Pts: 150
MEQ kills: 3.18
Kills per point spent: 0.0218

Do with that information what you will...........

And then the Sisters and Tau die in assault whiel the Grey Hunters slaughter via Counter Attack. Sisters being SLIGHTLY (~3.5%) stronger than Grey Hunters in shooting does not make up for their weakness everywhere else.

Melissia wrote:

Celtic Strike wrote:For 2 pts more Sisters get a 6++, +1 I, +1 WS, +1 BS, +1 SV and +1 LD. They lose the Pulse rifle but gain grenades, pistol and an act of faith.

Tactical Marines gain +1 I, +1 WS, +1 BS, +1 S, +1 T, Combat Tactics, ATSKNF, and a free heavy/special weapon for merely four points more than Sisters-- oh, and their frags and bolt pistols are actually useful to them, unlike Sisters. Tactical Marines must be overpowered/underpriced.

Pure points analysis without context is completely and utterly worthless, and always has been.

You clearly don't play basic marines if you think those frags are worth something. Yep, assaulting with 9 tacs. 18-9-4.5-1.5 So im paying 10 points so that I can kill another tac marine on the charge before they kill .75 of mine. So useful. I'd rather pay less and get to have two special weapons instead of having to pay for a heavy and special conjoined at the hip to make the worst squad possible. If sisters were in the marine codex You would never see a tactical marine. Hell, you see the bare minimum of them as it is. They're one of the worst basic troops in the game while the sister, by virtue of relatively low points cost and having an actual battlefield role is good.

The higher number comes from the auto hits, the SoB one being higher again due to the Heavy Flamer being S5?

ShumaGorath wrote:You clearly don't play basic marines if you think those frags are worth something.

Being able to attack many non-MEQ armies in melee before they attack back is an advantage that cannot be denied, and gaining the charge bonus while attacking at the same time as MEQ armies is quite valuable if you're attacking a shooty army. Sisters with frags don't really gain much of an advantage, as Orks and Necrons have higher WS and T, and Tau aren't going to put up much of a fight anyway.

n0t_u wrote:The higher number comes from the auto hits, the SoB one being higher again due to the Heavy Flamer being S5?

Yes, the H. Flamer being +1 Strength and assault was what put them over the top


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How about a regular tac squad?

9 Space marines, 1 Sgt W/Pistol, 1 Flamer
Pts: 170
MEQ kills: 2.51
Kills per points spent: 0.0147

I don't have the cost of Imp guard vets or their options but I can run a quick calc if anyone knows them.

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Melissia wrote: Tau aren't going to put up much of a fight anyway.

Sigh, my poor, squishy tau

Melissia wrote:
I stopped playing Sisters sometime in Dec of last year. I stopped buying Sisters a year before that.

The army was old, stale, overpriced, and underpowered. Now it's new, stale, even MORE overpriecd, and even more underpowered.

All this complaining Melissia and you don't even play them? Not only that I like the fact that you bought them, and played them even though they're just horrible all the way around, can you be anymore depressing?

They were my second army, I bought them during 5th, and have proudly played them the whole time. Although I don't like most of the new dex, I'm not going to complain about what's wrong, and instead try and work with what's right. Point is I've been playing them and have been buying them, a lot of them. I've got over 4k points worth invested so instead of throwing my hands up and complaining for page after page in a thread, I'm going to see what I can do to get my army up to snuff, and start working with what I've got. I suggest probably a little less doomsday rabble and a little more positive thinking will probably do you a bit of good.

Melissia wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:You clearly don't play basic marines if you think those frags are worth something.

Being able to attack many non-MEQ armies in melee before they attack back is an advantage that cannot be denied, and gaining the charge bonus while attacking at the same time as MEQ armies is quite valuable if you're attacking a shooty army.

No, it's not quite valuable. It translates into killing .75 more marines then you would have if you went second. Against tau its meaningless, against IG and DE it's meaningless. Against space wolves assaulting with a tac squad is suicide, likewise with grey knights. They do nothing to Dark Angels. Etc. About their only use is against other tactical marines, and I guess sisters? Either way the tac squad is better off firing its bolters for the same level of damage output and avoiding the halberds and demiklaives.

The kraks are actually better on sisters then tacs since the sister squad is a dedicated close range fire support squad, meaning that they aren't wasting points by moving and being close to enemy vehicles. Compared to tacticals which are forced to take a heavy weapon (which is comped into their points). The sisters are crappy compared to grey hunters, but so is everything in the entire space marine army book. Grey hunters are just overpowered.

Either way, you didn't go up 3 points. You went up like 1 depending on what you take for a loadout. For the krak grenades thats worth it, you're just as good with those as everyone else. The 6+ isn't useless either. It will save sisters in combat and aren't a bad addition in the meta which is ap3-2 spam. The sisters didn't get worse, they have a faith ability that's actually pretty good for taking and holding objectives, especially in the back field against shooting. It's like a watered down ATSSNF and has other uses.

I'll say again. The basic sister is not what made the Witchhunters codex noncompetitive. It was the rest of it.

Actually they could use combat to try and avoid the shooting if they happened to get out of position so badly, or need to push an objective. Being in combat would still be contesting it. Striking first simply lowering the odds of losing marines in the retaliating attacks.

Or a Heavy squad with 4 H. Flamers

9 Sisters, 1 vet, 4 Heavy flamers.

Pts: 205
MEQ Kills: 4.791
Kills per point spent: 0.0233

That does not include rending hits as the chances are marginal. Increase by a few hundredths if you feel like it.

If the command squad can take three heavy weapons with relentless, colour me happy. 3 Multimeltas hoping out of a vehicle and hitting.

n0t_u wrote:Actually they could use combat to try and avoid the shooting if they happened to get out of position so badly, or need to push an objective. Being in combat would still be contesting it. Striking first simply lowering the odds of losing marines in the retaliating attacks.

Sisters don't strike first due to grenades. They'll usually go second.

Kreedos wrote:can you be anymore depressing?

Most certainly. My pessimism towards GW's treatment of Sisters is legendary.

Kreedos wrote:They were my second army, I bought them during 5th

I was more into the fluff (still am, in fact), but I bought my first Sisters models in third edition. I sold some of them off a few years later to pay for a college book, and then bought some more cheap on ebay to bring them back to 2000. Then in fifth edition I really starte to get into Orks and Guard, and found that it's nice not to play an army that sucks. I love the lore of the Sisters, but I loathe how underpowered they are, as well as the design of the abdomen/chest of the power armor on the models.

Celtic Strike wrote:How about a regular tac squad?

Try the bolt pistol and then assault, which is far more effective with Sisters no longer having an I4 unit.

Celtic Strike wrote:Or a Heavy squad with 4 H. Flamers

9 Sisters, 1 vet, 4 Heavy flamers.

Pts: 205
MEQ Kills: 4.791
Kills per point spent: 0.0233

That does not include rending hits as the chances are marginal. Increase by a few hundredths if you feel like it.

If the command squad can take three heavy weapons with relentless, colour me happy. 3 Multimeltas hoping out of a vehicle and hitting.

What is the comparison to the current WH codex SoB though?


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ShumaGorath wrote:

n0t_u wrote:Actually they could use combat to try and avoid the shooting if they happened to get out of position so badly, or need to push an objective. Being in combat would still be contesting it. Striking first simply lowering the odds of losing marines in the retaliating attacks.

Sisters don't strike first due to grenades. They'll usually go second.

I thought you were talking about the uselessness of grenades on tactical marines. Really they belong on assault units and not much else in my opinion.

ShumaGorath wrote:I'll say again. The basic sister is not what made the Witchhunters codex noncompetitive. It was the rest of it.

I don't disagree. My point was that this doesn't mean that the basic Battle Sister was somehow an excellently designed unit. It certainly isn't now, for sure.

ShumaGorath wrote:
I'll say again. The basic sister is not what made the Witchhunters codex noncompetitive. It was the rest of it.

I've got to whole heartly disagree with you here, the basic sister was the strongest unit in the codex when given a Braizer, it was durable and had both anti tank and fantastic anti troop, also they could even punch MC's with str 5 and divine guidance. The basic sister could do everything, and I rarely ever took less than 6 and 3 Exorcists, the rest of the codex was filler, and an HQ you didnt even want.

Melissia wrote:
I was more into the fluff (still am, in fact), but I bought my first Sisters models in third edition. I sold some of them off a few years later to pay for a college book, and then bought some more cheap on ebay to bring them back to 2000. Then in fifth edition I really starte to get into Orks and Guard, and found that it's nice not to play an army that sucks. I love the lore of the Sisters, but I loathe how underpowered they are, as well as the design of the abdomen/chest of the power armor on the models.

I've had no problems competing with Sisters, in every tournament I've been in, I've placed in the upper middle of the pack, and I've even won one, granted it was a FLGS tourney, but still it counts I think. I've never really thought to myself that the old book sucks, and every time I'd try and tell my friends that, they'd laugh in my face and say I'm overpowered. Against my two friends I play the most, I've rarely lost with my Sisters, I'm talking like 8/1 Ratio most likely. I'm not saying this to brag, I'm just saying the overall experience I've had is nothing but good.

Kreedos wrote:

They were my second army, I bought them during 5th, and have proudly played them the whole time.

I bought them during 2nd, am I allowed to complain?

One of my favorite parts of the 40K fluff/universe, and they have so much potential to be a flavorful army with amazing models, and yet GW misses the boat with both rules and models (or lack thereof).

Pretty much all my fav armies have suffered and pretty much been rendered moot: Genestealer cult,SOB, LATD,

if it wasn't for Orks I probably would have quit playing 40k at this point...