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KingDeath wrote:

Tadashi wrote:No. But I refuse to become a prisoner. It's not a good story to tell your grandchildren, about how the enemy were better soldiers. I'd rather charge into glorious death with a banzai charge. And the Japanese surrendered only because our Emperor told us to. Will not comment on that.

The dead do not have grandchildren whom they can tell anything. Besides that, your attempts at historical revisionism are amusing but ultimately vain. There was nothing glorious about Banzai charges ( in fact they were naught but one sign of an utterly barbaric and ultimately self destructive ideology which deserved to be crushed ) and even less glory could be found in the final surrender of the Japanese Empire, which happened at least one year too late. But of course it is easy to speak about glorious death and all that bs when you don't have to face such a situation.

Well, since a banzai chargecan only be understood in context of Japanese culture, there's no point in arguing about it, but I agree that in the end the Empire had no choice to surrender...no one questions the Emperor after all...the alternative being utter annihilation. The Empire lived to fight and win on economic battlefield after the war thanks to that.

Harriticus wrote:BL interpretations are the prime source of "darker" Tau. The official GW fluff makes them out to be far better than the Imperium.

Okay, this is a thread with some heated side discussions, so please for the love of all things holy don't think I'm attacking you Harri. But I just read the Tau codex the other day, and in at least two places it indicates that the Tau higher-ups exercise some form of mind control. In several more it indicates that something unseen is manipulating the Tau race, whether it be the Ethereals or some other force. Their own codex paints them as 'Grimdark, but with very good PR.'

The etherals utilize some sort of seemingly unatural mind control (a noblebright take may be that they have soothing or organizing power on the lesser castes). The Codex heavily implies this in the way 40k background always tells us but doesn't tell us how things are.
Not satisfied, some will say "well it doesn't flat out completely say that."
Then Xenolgy flat out says it.
To which the response is "well whatever."
If you don't think the Etherals have complete control of the lesser classes you are missing what makes the Tau Tau.

KingDeath wrote:

Tadashi wrote:No. But I refuse to become a prisoner. It's not a good story to tell your grandchildren, about how the enemy were better soldiers. I'd rather charge into glorious death with a banzai charge. And the Japanese surrendered only because our Emperor told us to. Will not comment on that.

The dead do not have grandchildren whom they can tell anything. Besides that, your attempts at historical revisionism are amusing but ultimately vain. There was nothing glorious about Banzai charges ( in fact they were naught but one sign of an utterly barbaric and ultimately self destructive ideology which deserved to be crushed ) and even less glory could be found in the final surrender of the Japanese Empire, which happened at least one year too late. But of course it is easy to speak about glorious death and all that bs when you don't have to face such a situation.

And this children, is why threads get locked.

Lets try not to insult an entire nation shall we?

KingDeath wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:

moom241 wrote:POW camps are not pleasant, and are certainly not noblebright, or humane.

But it is better than let several thousand fanatics go on massacring your people

No it's not. Better to die than rot in a camp.

Easy to say from within your presumably comfortable home.

A fair point. But my Japanese heritage obliges me to seek death than endure the dishonor of being a POW.

At the moment i hope that it isn't your Japanese heritage which obliges you to spout nonsense

I wouldn't call that nonsense. If a men have to choose about dying a free men or living as a slave I know that i would choose to die instead.
My people know that the best. We show that to the Turks in 1912, to the Austro-Hungarians in 1914 and to the Germans in 1941.


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KingDeath wrote:
The dead do not have grandchildren whom they can tell anything. Besides that, your attempts at historical revisionism are amusing but ultimately vain. There was nothing glorious about Banzai charges ( in fact they were naught but one sign of an utterly barbaric and ultimately self destructive ideology which deserved to be crushed ) and even less glory could be found in the final surrender of the Japanese Empire, which happened at least one year too late. But of course it is easy to speak about glorious death and all that bs when you don't have to face such a situation.

That's maybe for you, for Japanese it is a shame to be captured and not die in battle - that is the way of Samurai.
You have just insulted Japanese without realizing it. It is their believes and it is not our position to judge them as we don't understand their culture and religions.
And yes it is easy to speak about death and all that from home, but being on a battlefield doesn't change much. You know that you may going to die and that is some comfort for you. In fact, every solder knows that when he step on the battlefield - that is what makes them cool and able to fight. And most deaths in war are instant ( being shot in the head for example ) so there is really not much to worry about.

Now can we please go back to the Tau, if you want to continue talk about other nation's believes and such start a new thread on that subject.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The etherals utilize some sort of seemingly unatural mind control (a noblebright take may be that they have soothing or organizing power on the lesser castes). The Codex heavily implies this in the way 40k background always tells us but doesn't tell us how things are.
Not satisfied, some will say "well it doesn't flat out completely say that."
Then Xenolgy flat out says it.
To which the response is "well whatever."

Actually: To which the response is: In a BL book that obviously gets other things about Tau wrong (feet instead of hooves), a completely mad inquisitor speculates about Tau ethereal origins based on a few obscure tidbits. Only the desperate call that hard evidence.

Jimsolo wrote:But I just read the Tau codex the other day, and in at least two places it indicates that the Tau higher-ups exercise some form of mind control. In several more it indicates that something unseen is manipulating the Tau race, whether it be the Ethereals or some other force. Their own codex paints them as 'Grimdark, but with very good PR.'

I like it how you prove your conclusion with hard evidence

Actually, we know from Tau history, that without the moderating influence of the ethereals, the Tau race would have ended in a bloody self-destructive civil war. Now the whole society is build on a rigid and proven structure that guarantees peace by keeping the delicate balance between the castes. This balance is kept and organized by the ethereals. All Tau are aware that they need the ethereals to keep that balance, so they accept the caste structure. The caste structure is therefore Tau specific (to avoid Mont'au) and only open to Tau. They never make any attempts to enforce a caste structure on other races, because that doesn't make sense.

Oh, and locking up fanatic mass murderers is not equivalent to slavery. And there is a fundamental difference of you commiting suicide before emprisonment and a state killing all prisoners.

The Mont'au story suggests some kind of supernatural abilities on the part of the aun. It's not very definitive as how or why (insert idea you like best), but it's very clear they they hold a almost magical power of suggestion. Kind of like the jedi mind trick.

KingDeath wrote:

Tadashi wrote:No. But I refuse to become a prisoner. It's not a good story to tell your grandchildren, about how the enemy were better soldiers. I'd rather charge into glorious death with a banzai charge. And the Japanese surrendered only because our Emperor told us to. Will not comment on that.

The dead do not have grandchildren whom they can tell anything. Besides that, your attempts at historical revisionism are amusing but ultimately vain. There was nothing glorious about Banzai charges ( in fact they were naught but one sign of an utterly barbaric and ultimately self destructive ideology which deserved to be crushed ) and even less glory could be found in the final surrender of the Japanese Empire, which happened at least one year too late. But of course it is easy to speak about glorious death and all that bs when you don't have to face such a situation.

Thank you for that snarky reply. I'm sure it was totally necessary and not out-of-the-blue at all.
Now, back to the Tau and away from nationalistic nonsense...
Regardless of the debate as to whether POW camps are darker than the Imperium's, ah, 'surrender acceptance techniques,' the point is basically that neither are a noble thing to do. POW camps can be humane, but it is often more the case (especially when run by an aggressive caste such as the Fire Caste) that the conditions are probably more akin to what is traditionally brought up when the term POW camp is used.
At least, that's my interpretation.

The POW camps are run by the water caste.

nomotog wrote:The POW camps are run by the water caste.

That so? Well, that puts a different spin on things.
I assumed they'd be run by the Fire Caste, it being a military facility, but I suppose the bureaucrats running it also makes sense.
Where's this stated, if you don't mind me asking?

I'm going to have to dig into the fluff for this. In the deathwatch RPG, velk'han is home to a large water caste (re)education camp.

I can find more If I look for it. Problem is that there is not a lot of fluff on the water caste.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Regardless of the debate as to whether POW camps are darker than the Imperium's, ah, 'surrender acceptance techniques,' the point is basically that neither are a noble thing to do.

So if a society is confronted with an army of fanatics who want to kill all of you, the only noble solution would be to let them do their massacre until they are tired of it?

Kroothawk wrote:
So if a society is confronted with an army of fanatics who want to kill all of you, the only noble solution would be to let them do their massacre until they are tired of it?

You fight until you die, that is the Human way. Or you can retreat, witch is also fine. But in that retreat expect many solders to die to allow civilians to flee.

Why are the Guardsmen fanatics? They're just normal soldiers. The Fire Warriors are far more fanatical in their belief in the greater good.

Fire Warriors are also normal Tau solders.
Guardsmen are fanatics to, they live to fight and die for their Emperor. Just see Krieg, they are the best example of that. Cadians to.

Kroothawk wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Regardless of the debate as to whether POW camps are darker than the Imperium's, ah, 'surrender acceptance techniques,' the point is basically that neither are a noble thing to do.

So if a society is confronted with an army of fanatics who want to kill all of you, the only noble solution would be to let them do their massacre until they are tired of it?

Yep, because POWs are usually still-active soldiers fully capable of fighting instead of people who surrendered rather than get killed, right?
The troops the IoM is most likely to fight the Tau with are the Guard, and as the Guard are anything but fanatical (otherwise what would be the point of Commissars?) your point doesn't hold up as well as you think it does.
Now, if the IoM was sending SMs, as it sometimes does, then I might agree with you. However, generally speaking, most of the Imperium's fighting is done by the Guard, therefore lessening the chances of the Tau fighting the actual fanatics enough to take some of them prisoner.

I think you are meant to put surrendered soldiers into POW camps. What else are you going to do with them? The war is not going to be over for a long time.

Oh and fun fact, the IoM always sends SMs to fight the tau. Every battle includes a few different chapters.

Yes, I'm somewhat confused by what the Tau were supposed to do... They basically were like "Look guys, we'll let you stay here and live out your lifes as new citizens of our Empire, but in case you don't want to play nice we'll be forced to put you behind bars."

Or should they have let them remain on the worlds they were left with no support until they either die of starvation or become a thorn in the side in the form of fanatical guerilla warfare?

Or should they have sent them back to the IoM, where they would have most likely been executed to prevent the "news" that the Tau are accepting deserters into their ranks from spreading?

What would be the noble thing to do?

I would have to disagree. I have read Brave new World on several occasions it's one of my favorite books, and it's nothing like Tau socieity.

The Tau are better compared to a hybrid of a religious cult and colony of ants. The identifying of each particular breeds strengths and using them accordingly is something very insect like. Now if you really want to get into it the Tau are a "cyber punk" army in a way. Lets look back are early human civilization. People did what they were best at in exchange for what someone else was best at. So I would grow crops, you would protect em in exchange for crops, and that guy would build houses in exchange for crops and protection ect.. I feel GW was trying to get at ":wow you know if we would stop working against each other and use our strengths to over come problems maybe we can move forward as a race instead of backwards or remaining stationary." That's neither here nor there.

Now keep in mind in the fluff each Cast of the Tau EVOLVED to be good at a certain thing. Air cast at one time had wings, fire Cast are larger and more fit for fighting, Earth Cast had a unique understanding of the land ect... So in a way they are very much like Ants or Bees, Workers are bread for working, soldiers are bread for fighting, ect.. So the Ethereals who are wise knew that by having all strengths working together things would turn out better and it did.

So are they evil? No, their just not what we accept as the norm in society because we live in a age where no one wants to be told what to do. (I'm not saying this is wrong it's just the truth.) Now as for the removing those who don't adhere to the teaching of the greater good it would be a necessary evil. If you think about Tau social structure it is very fragile. If one cast was to stop doing it's job it would quickly cause the system to fall apart. So lets say the Earth cast was to stop making new space ships for the air cast and started making housing for them selves. Well then the Air cast would have no way of transporting troops to where they are needed, the fire cast would likely rebel against the Earth cast, and every thing would fall to crap. So sadly to prevent this those who would hinder progress would have to be "removed" from the situation. Trust me I feel this is a very radical decision, but it would have to be done to maintain such a society.

DarkWind wrote:I would have to disagree. I have read Brave new World on several occasions it's one of my favorite books, and it's nothing like Tau socieity.

The Tau are better compared to a hybrid of a religious cult and colony of ants. The identifying of each particular breeds strengths and using them accordingly is something very insect like. Now if you really want to get into it the Tau are a "cyber punk" army in a way. Lets look back are early human civilization. People did what they were best at in exchange for what someone else was best at. So I would grow crops, you would protect em in exchange for crops, and that guy would build houses in exchange for crops and protection ect.. I feel GW was trying to get at ":wow you know if we would stop working against each other and use our strengths to over come problems maybe we can move forward as a race instead of backwards or remaining stationary." That's neither here nor there.

Now keep in mind in the fluff each Cast of the Tau EVOLVED to be good at a certain thing. Air cast at one time had wings, fire Cast are larger and more fit for fighting, Earth Cast had a unique understanding of the land ect... So in a way they are very much like Ants or Bees, Workers are bread for working, soldiers are bread for fighting, ect.. So the Ethereals who are wise knew that by having all strengths working together things would turn out better and it did.

So are they evil? No, their just not what we accept as the norm in society because we live in a age where no one wants to be told what to do. (I'm not saying this is wrong it's just the truth.) Now as for the removing those who don't adhere to the teaching of the greater good it would be a necessary evil. If you think about Tau social structure it is very fragile. If one cast was to stop doing it's job it would quickly cause the system to fall apart. So lets say the Earth cast was to stop making new space ships for the air cast and started making housing for them selves. Well then the Air cast would have no way of transporting troops to where they are needed, the fire cast would likely rebel against the Earth cast, and every thing would fall to crap. So sadly to prevent this those who would hinder progress would have to be "removed" from the situation. Trust me I feel this is a very radical decision, but it would have to be done to maintain such a society.

Yay! Back on topic! Anyway, you bring up a few very good points. The Tau are really more like a religious cult/ant farm type thing. They are like a giant grandfather clock, all of the little gears and cogs turn to make the "greater good" when one stops the whole things get effed up. And yeah, the Ethereal's would have no problem removing any hinders from the "greater good" and not thinking twice about it. Hmmmmm this brings a whole new view on the Tau.

Also, just stumbled over this PDF - I feel it might be helpful for the discussion at hand: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1280012_BFG_Tau_Fleets.pdf

"As the Tau Empire expands out from its homeworld, the Tau inevitably encounter new races previously unknown to them, and to each of these an offer of allegiance is made. There are many aggressive, arrogant and selfish races in the galaxy, however, and even the Tau often find first contact results in nothing more than yet another bloody war.
There are other races however, who readily accept the message of the greater good and take up their place in the Tau Empire. Some of these races are small, perhaps located on just a single world, or else primitive with little useful resource to offer the Tau, in which case their accession to the Empire is simply a formality, with the benevolent Tau offering protection to these lesser races while they can expect little other than appreciation and friendship in return.
Other additions to the Empire are advanced in themselves, and the union of two such cultures provides valuable new knowledge, technology and understanding for both parties. Such races, where able, fulfil their debt to the Tau Empire by a series of tithes which suit their own particular abilities. Able craftsmen, for instance, may be called upon to provide manufacturing capacity, while aggressive or warlike races will be obligated to provide troops to the armies of the Tau.
There are other races still who do not wish to fully submit to the Empire, but who likewise have no wish for war with the Tau and will instead strike up armistices or treaties of neutrality, opening up lucrative new markets or providing new allegiances for mutual protection. Such races are also likely to hire themselves out as mercenaries to the Tau Empire when the opportunity arises."

Lynata wrote:Yes, I'm somewhat confused by what the Tau were supposed to do... They basically were like "Look guys, we'll let you stay here and live out your lifes as new citizens of our Empire, but in case you don't want to play nice we'll be forced to put you behind bars."

Or should they have let them remain on the worlds they were left with no support until they either die of starvation or become a thorn in the side in the form of fanatical guerilla warfare?

Or should they have sent them back to the IoM, where they would have most likely been executed to prevent the "news" that the Tau are accepting deserters into their ranks from spreading?

What would be the noble thing to do?

There is no confusion at all. Just the story told again later, so no one is left behind and the whole case of "what to do" exists no longer.
Changing a few things isn't new. The Tau specifically are open to changes, since they are the youngest addition to 40k.

Usually POW are traded for your own people ( so the fate of the PoW doesn't matter..) or released somewhere else ( and thus far off so they aren't a problem ) or starved or worked to death. Lets not get into who chose which solution.
The Tau however, are not noble so it is unimportant if the persons they look down upon are treated badly of suffer. Because, whichever solution is ordered by an etheral will be done.
Tau got refitted to 40k, and follow the "you won't be missed" theme now.

1hadhq wrote:There is no confusion at all. Just the story told again later, so no one is left behind and the whole case of "what to do" exists no longer.

Oh, GW retconned the results of the Crusade? I wasn't aware of that. Is that in their newer Codex?

As far as PoW's are concerned, it is also a question of efficiency. Many nations used to enslave PoW's for forced labour, in which case a premature death would of course be a wasted resource. I can perfectly see the Tau setting up labour camps, forcing unrelenting Guardsmen to work in a mine or whatever as a trade-off for providing them with food and healthcare, and actually it is this what I think was the norm throughout history. In some cases, the problem was a lack of control over the wardens combined with a lack of care for the fate of the prisoners, leading to abuse of power, reduced rations or even impromptu executions based on nothing more but hate. Not how I see the Tau operate, though. But 40k being what it is, each of us is free to prefer their own interpretation.

“Our economic theory holds that the human being is the most fundamental productive force. Except for those who must be exterminated physically out of political consideration, human beings must be utilized as productive forces, with submissiveness as the prerequisite. The Laogai system's fundamental policy is 'Forced Labor as a means, while Thought Reform is our basic aim.’”
- the People's Republic of China

PoW and Warhammer 40000.
Before continuing this off topic discussion just remember how 40k universe is and what PoW stand for.
You will see that those 2 words don't go together.

Brother Coa wrote:Fire Warriors are also normal Tau solders.
Guardsmen are fanatics to, they live to fight and die for their Emperor. Just see Krieg, they are the best example of that. Cadians to.

This may come as a surprise but not all Guardsmen are from Krieg and Cadia. In fact zero of the ones involved in the Taros campaign were.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Fire Warriors are also normal Tau solders.
Guardsmen are fanatics to, they live to fight and die for their Emperor. Just see Krieg, they are the best example of that. Cadians to.

This may come as a surprise but not all Guardsmen are from Krieg and Cadia. In fact zero of the ones involved in the Taros campaign were.

Taros was a fiasco, due to inept command, by Guard, Naval, and Astartes alike. Zeist, now, we're talking. Ave Imperium Hominis

Everytime you write the word Zeist a Highlander fan has a coronary.

Jimsolo wrote:Everytime you write the word Zeist a Highlander fan has a coronary.

Zeist. Zeist. Zeist.

Lynata wrote:

1hadhq wrote:There is no confusion at all. Just the story told again later, so no one is left behind and the whole case of "what to do" exists no longer.

Oh, GW retconned the results of the Crusade? I wasn't aware of that. Is that in their newer Codex?

As far as PoW's are concerned, it is also a question of efficiency. Many nations used to enslave PoW's for forced labour, in which case a premature death would of course be a wasted resource. I can perfectly see the Tau setting up labour camps, forcing unrelenting Guardsmen to work in a mine or whatever as a trade-off for providing them with food and healthcare, and actually it is this what I think was the norm throughout history. In some cases, the problem was a lack of control over the wardens combined with a lack of care for the fate of the prisoners, leading to abuse of power, reduced rations or even impromptu executions based on nothing more but hate. Not how I see the Tau operate, though. But 40k being what it is, each of us is free to prefer their own interpretation.

“Our economic theory holds that the human being is the most fundamental productive force. Except for those who must be exterminated physically out of political consideration, human beings must be utilized as productive forces, with submissiveness as the prerequisite. The Laogai system's fundamental policy is 'Forced Labor as a means, while Thought Reform is our basic aim.’”
- the People's Republic of China

I was going to compare how tau might treat PoW's to an old WW2 camp here in Canada called Camp 30 which treated it's prisoners so humanely several asked to stay after the war, but the only information on it as far as the internet is concerned is here, and this seems very un-tau for many reasons which I hope are obvious.


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Tadashi wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Fire Warriors are also normal Tau solders.
Guardsmen are fanatics to, they live to fight and die for their Emperor. Just see Krieg, they are the best example of that. Cadians to.

This may come as a surprise but not all Guardsmen are from Krieg and Cadia. In fact zero of the ones involved in the Taros campaign were.

Taros was a fiasco, due to inept command, by Guard, Naval, and Astartes alike. Zeist, now, we're talking. Ave Imperium Hominis

The tau PDF on Dal'yth also stopped a crusade.

Just saying.

In fact, the only Really successful war against tau is the War of Dakka from the orks, which, while likely to get curbstomped at any moment because a manta was enough to shift the war, is still a threat.

Well they're not. They liked it so much they had a prison revolt. Ok then.