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Can the models survive the stripping process? Do the details turn to mush? Because the closeups from that 'jack do not inspire confidence. Lots of detail that is shallow and is lost under just a primer coat.
How do people plan to store all the spare Warjack pieces once painted? I wouldn't want to just chuck them in a box or need a custom foam.
I see that new players are expected to jump into the game with a $200 box full of an unproven material & production method from a company that has less than stellar reputation for quality.
By new material, I do mean for mass production. No one else has done this for retail packaging that I am aware of.
How do the prints react to the fluctuating temperatures of being shipped in the mail systems? If they have mistakes in curing the prints, do they know if packaging plastics will react with the resin?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/29 15:30:01
Bam, said the lady!
DR:70S+GM++B+I+Pw40k09/f++D++A(WTF)/hWD153R+++T(S)DM++++ Dakka, what is good in life?
To crush other websites,
See their user posts driven before you,
And hear the lamentation of the newbs.
-Frazzled-10/22/09
Can the models survive the stripping process? Do the details turn to mush? Because the closeups from that 'jack do not inspire confidence. Lots of detail that is shallow and is lost under just a primer coat.
How do people plan to store all the spare Warjack pieces once painted?
I wouldn't want to just chuck them in a box or need a custom foam.
I see that new players are expected to jump into the game with a $200 box full of an unproven material & production method from a company that has less than stellar reputation for quality.
By new material, I do mean for mass production. No one else has done this for retail packaging that I am aware of.
How do the prints react to the fluctuating temperatures of being shipped in the mail systems?
If they have mistakes in curing the prints, do they know if packaging plastics will react with the resin?
A lot of that depends on the resin they actually use. Stripping with acetone will be pretty much right out regardless of what they settle on, but IPA/denatured alcohol may work just fine on most of them, since that's often what's used to clean uncured resin after the print. Even there, you want to be careful how long you'd leave in the stripper tho. Temperature can possibly affect them, but not really any more-so than cast resin; too hot will cause some warping/bending. So long as they completely cure, there shouldn't be any interactions with any packaging, but if they do undercure a little bit they could get "sticky". As for storage, since they're planned for magnets, my best guess on how to store/transport them would be with magnetic trays in the first place, so you could just plop the extra parts right on the tray without them sliding around too much, hopefully. Those without magnetic cases, well, probably gonna have to dedicate some slots in your foam for parts.
On the topic of layer lines... One thing that I do want to say is that when you take pictures super zoomed in, you're going to see artifacts in the photos that you often cannot see with your naked eye. Blow something up 3-5x, and yeah, they're glaring; but they may not be without that magnification. I notice this on my own prints all the time. Now, it's also possible to have very visible layers and artifacts without magnification, depending, so on that we pretty much just have to wait and see. Some of those photos don't give me a lot of hope, though.
skrulnik wrote: I have questions regarding the new models.
Can the models survive the stripping process? Do the details turn to mush? Because the closeups from that 'jack do not inspire confidence. Lots of detail that is shallow and is lost under just a primer coat.
How do people plan to store all the spare Warjack pieces once painted?
I wouldn't want to just chuck them in a box or need a custom foam.
It's just resin, so it should strip just fine. I ruined a few MonPoc models with the clear coat last year and had to start over and they 100% survived the process with no issue.
As for the spare parts, Metal tins are great for this kind of stuff. I use them for all my magnetized wargames (Warmachine, Warcaster, 40k among others).
€195 for 22 models... yeah, this is going to be dead on arrival.
Shame, as WARMACHINE used to be a great game, that was ruined by not capping the amount of Infantry a force could take, which resulted in InfantryMachine (which just eroded the concept of the game), and then the lines between the factions blurred due to the constant releases.
Back when it was just the Prime book it was a great alternative to what GW were at time. I really want PP to do well, and to keep WARMACHINE as a challenging game, one that has great resource management, and fun using those big stompy Warjacks. If they could just release battleboxes as they used to be during Prime, and leave Infantry out of the game. Focus on what makes the game stand out. However asking $200 for a starter set for 1 faction is just absolutely glue sniffing stupid.
Might see if I can track down some of the old battle boxes cheap, I think PP are in dire straits. All these choices just sounds like a company that is circling the drain and is trying to course correct.
TL/DR, remember Rackham, remember how their Pre-Paints killed them? Yeah, this is Privateer Press' time to do the equivalent Swan dive.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/07/29 16:08:02
The objective of the game is to win. The point of the game is to have fun. The two should never be confused.
All this pearl clutching about minor layer lines when the community at large can barely remove mould lines or drill barrels...
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
skrulnik wrote: Can the models survive the stripping process? Do the details turn to mush? Because the closeups from that 'jack do not inspire confidence. Lots of detail that is shallow and is lost under just a primer coat.
Yep, same as normal resin. Alcohol and simple green are fine, haven't tried acetone yet.
By new material, I do mean for mass production. No one else has done this for retail packaging that I am aware of.
Kingdom Death does the same thing.
How do the prints react to the fluctuating temperatures of being shipped in the mail systems?
UV resin is pretty thermally inactive. It might get slightly bendier, but not by any significant amount.
If they have mistakes in curing the prints, do they know if packaging plastics will react with the resin?
That's not really a failure state of 3D print post processing, so should never come up. However, UV resin doesn't react with plastic.
Azreal13 wrote: All this pearl clutching about minor layer lines when the community at large can barely remove mould lines or drill barrels...
Or even assemble entire models, let alone paint them. TBH detail is actually detrimental for a lot of players' attempts to have an army not looking like trashcan vomit, becauce it makes painting and assembly harder.
I respectfully disagree. I think at it's heart Warmachine is a game about exploiting synergy and resource allocation/risk management that got co-opted by movement widget fetishists. It made for tedious and boring gameplay that drove the casuals (myself included) away in droves and I'm glad for it to be gone.
This is the best analysis in the entire thread. The widget fetishists seem to have found Marvel Crisis Protocol so maybe Warmachine can be left alone this time around 😺
I really hope this works out for PP.
Exploiting synergy sounds like an euphemism for netdecking and risk management can be a fancy name for rolling well
Thank you, I prefer elements that are player dependant in a good game - in a wargame it's maneuver and placement.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/29 17:12:02
Azreal13 wrote: All this pearl clutching about minor layer lines when the community at large can barely remove mould lines or drill barrels...
Plus all the people screaming that 3D printing is the future that will kill GW and traditional cast models.
Honestly right now the 3D print manufacture is a storm in a teacup until we see the models themselves in our hands. It could be trash or it could be awesome. Done right it will be awesome quality; done wrong it will be trash to dangerous (eg if they seriously mess up and don't even know about the risks of hollowed models and resin traps). right now I'm going to go out on a limb and expect a mature firm like PP to have a good grasp on 3D printing and hire competent staff and designers to avoid the common pitfalls.
Exploiting synergy sounds like an euphemism for netdecking and risk management can be a fancy name for rolling well
FURY is risk management, as Warbeasts build it up and it needs to be leached back to their Warlock, any left on the Warbeast can make it attack the closest thing, and means a turn of not being able to fully control it.
A bit more involved than dice rolling.
The objective of the game is to win. The point of the game is to have fun. The two should never be confused.
Have they said anywhere that they're using a form of DLP printing? Because there's other techniques.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Azreal13 wrote: Have they said anywhere that they're using a form of DLP printing? Because there's other techniques.
They haven't stated what machines are planned, no. Or if they're even going to have their own machines in-house, or only farming it to "professional printers." My guess is they're either going to use DLP or SLA; there's no way they're doing FDM or SLS.
You're probably right. There's no way there's an FDM machine that's up to the job, I was entertaining SLS for a minute, but with greater consideration I don't think the downsides could be overcome sufficiently for minis.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Azreal13 wrote: You're probably right. There's no way there's an FDM machine that's up to the job, I was entertaining SLS for a minute, but with greater consideration I don't think the downsides could be overcome sufficiently for minis.
Yeah, even the best SLS machines I've seen will leave a grainy texture; it's just part of the process since it's essentially gluing powder together. You can do some cool stuff since you don't need supports, but surface finish is not going to be what we miniature folks will find acceptable.
Monkeysloth wrote: If they were planning SLS they'd already be showing off Prepainted minis you could just buy and use. No assembly, just ready to unbox and play.
Totally, since you absolutely can do full color 3d prints w/ SLS. That might go down the Rackham route, which given PP's current general community of not even fully assembling their models in a lot of cases, might not actually be that bad. It would kill any painter types out there, tho.
I respectfully disagree. I think at it's heart Warmachine is a game about exploiting synergy and resource allocation/risk management that got co-opted by movement widget fetishists. It made for tedious and boring gameplay that drove the casuals (myself included) away in droves and I'm glad for it to be gone.
This is the best analysis in the entire thread. The widget fetishists seem to have found Marvel Crisis Protocol so maybe Warmachine can be left alone this time around 😺
I really hope this works out for PP.
Exploiting synergy sounds like an euphemism for netdecking and risk management can be a fancy name for rolling well
Thank you, I prefer elements that are player dependant in a good game - in a wargame it's maneuver and placement.
Yeah, I'm with you there. But I'd say that millimetre-perfect model placement is something other than maneuvering :-) I think this has been exacerbated in Crisis Protocol in particular by the trend of playing it on Tabletop Simulator, as well as its reliance on fixed-point objectives. That said, I adore it!
"Models Can Only Attack Enemy Models: We have generally removed the ability for friendly models to target other friendly models with attacks. There are some exceptions, of course, including warbeast frenzies and models with the Berserk special rule, but for the most part, you are no longer allowed to target your own models with attacks. This not only removed what we have long felt was a potentially awkward exploit in the rules but also allowed us to further streamline rules writing and interactions."
It took four editions for PP to work this one out... Jesus wept. I honestly wonder whether the designers are idiots who accidentally stumbled upon some very cool game mechanics.
The objective of the game is to win. The point of the game is to have fun. The two should never be confused.
I respectfully disagree. I think at it's heart Warmachine is a game about exploiting synergy and resource allocation/risk management that got co-opted by movement widget fetishists. It made for tedious and boring gameplay that drove the casuals (myself included) away in droves and I'm glad for it to be gone.
This is the best analysis in the entire thread. The widget fetishists seem to have found Marvel Crisis Protocol so maybe Warmachine can be left alone this time around 😺
I really hope this works out for PP.
You sir are a single point of light in the infinite, all encompassing bleakness that is this thread! Privateer Press is by no means perfect (and really no wargaming company is) but the level of hate they receive around here is fanatical. Play the games you like and leave the rest alone.
Good luck brother, have fun playing!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/29 23:34:25
I respectfully disagree. I think at it's heart Warmachine is a game about exploiting synergy and resource allocation/risk management that got co-opted by movement widget fetishists. It made for tedious and boring gameplay that drove the casuals (myself included) away in droves and I'm glad for it to be gone.
This is the best analysis in the entire thread. The widget fetishists seem to have found Marvel Crisis Protocol so maybe Warmachine can be left alone this time around 😺
I really hope this works out for PP.
You sir are a single point of light in the infinite, all encompassing bleakness that is this thread! Privateer Press is by no means perfect (and really no wargaming company is) but the level of hate they receive around here is fanatical. I say play the games you like and leave the rest alone.
Good luck brother, have fun playing!
I’m not that up on it, and I’m certainly not justifying it, but I think a lot of the salt comes from PP being touted as Not Games Workshop when WM was first launched, and then turning into GW But Worse.
I guess it’s like following the rise of a Punk or Anarchist Band, only to perceive them as selling out the second they get a whiff of success.
At least, that’s the impression I’ve gleaned.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
I respectfully disagree. I think at it's heart Warmachine is a game about exploiting synergy and resource allocation/risk management that got co-opted by movement widget fetishists. It made for tedious and boring gameplay that drove the casuals (myself included) away in droves and I'm glad for it to be gone.
This is the best analysis in the entire thread. The widget fetishists seem to have found Marvel Crisis Protocol so maybe Warmachine can be left alone this time around 😺
I really hope this works out for PP.
You sir are a single point of light in the infinite, all encompassing bleakness that is this thread! Privateer Press is by no means perfect (and really no wargaming company is) but the level of hate they receive around here is fanatical. I say play the games you like and leave the rest alone.
Good luck brother, have fun playing!
I’m not that up on it, and I’m certainly not justifying it, but I think a lot of the salt comes from PP being touted as Not Games Workshop when WM was first launched, and then turning into GW But Worse.
I guess it’s like following the rise of a Punk or Anarchist Band, only to perceive them as selling out the second they get a whiff of success.
At least, that’s the impression I’ve gleaned.
It also comes from a LOT of people being burned by how they handled the transition from Mk2 to Mk3 and even more people becoming disillusioned by the mishandling of Mk3. A lot of the so-called "hate" is frustration from people who used to love/enjoy the game and is justified criticism of a company mishandling the entire situation.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/29 23:43:44
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I’m not that up on it, and I’m certainly not justifying it, but I think a lot of the salt comes from PP being touted as Not Games Workshop when WM was first launched, and then turning into GW But Worse.
I guess it’s like following the rise of a Punk or Anarchist Band, only to perceive them as selling out the second they get a whiff of success.
At least, that’s the impression I’ve gleaned.
Absolutely, I agree.
That being said the amount of GW diehards and PP spurned lovers that show up in these threads always makes me cringe. Regardless, I'll stop posting about it now, but I'm still cautiously optimistic.
Complete anecdote in terms of “evidence”? I dabbled in Warmachine when it first came out. But I was put off by the few games I could find being “Everyone Stomp The Noob” affairs.
Add in the perspective I got from online sources was just “play like you got a pair. Git gud scrub, plya 2 win” etc. Which just isn’t my bag.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Complete anecdote in terms of “evidence”? I dabbled in Warmachine when it first came out. But I was put off by the few games I could find being “Everyone Stomp The Noob” affairs.
Add in the perspective I got from online sources was just “play like you got a pair. Git gud scrub, plya 2 win” etc. Which just isn’t my bag.
Truly anecdotal. I had very much the opposite experience in Mk. I, and Mk. II. Much of that seems to be what what fostered by local groups, as most of that mentality was something the "TFG's" already had, but felt obligated to exude that mentality as a rationale behind being jerks.
Any community has their jerks that poison a meta, Page 5 was just an easy excuse for some.
I had an amazing time in Mk. I, and Mk. II when I was playing and running demo games. I played many a pick up or garage table game of Mk. I and Mk. II, and many of my previous play group from where I lived still call those years the most fun we have had playing tabletop games.
Mk. III was where the game started to be something I didn't enjoy but still played due to the setting.
Mk. IV.... isn't what I wanted out of the game and setting. And feels really disappointing to see where this company has ended up. With most of the fault being on their management.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/30 06:23:17
I think it’s less hate and more valid criticism.
I used to be a PG. I lived and breathed Warmachine.
PP used to be a player in the TT game market.
Now they’re a shadow of their former selves, yet they’re the only ones who don’t seem to see that, and worst of all, they seem determined to not do much about it.
Things have changed. The industry has changed. The way companies market and get exposure has changed.
PP has not.
And I feel that’s where the salt comes from.
They could do so much better with just a little thought and effort. They seem to think that by just releasing stuff, people will just flock to their IP because it’s so good.
It doesn’t matter how interesting your IP is when you can’t be bothered to market it.
The main issue I see is that they at one time seemed to know what they were doing. And now they seem like a blind man fumbling around in the dark.
I guess I should also mention that I couldn’t give a crap about what GW is doing.
I’m not a GW fan and have a total of one 40k model just to paint, and two warbands for Underworlds so my son and I can play. The only TT game that’s gotten my attention of late if Crisis Protocol, which incidentally is made by former PP staff…..I want Warmachine to do well. But I fear it won’t from too many missteps.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/30 06:32:35
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Complete anecdote in terms of “evidence”? I dabbled in Warmachine when it first came out. But I was put off by the few games I could find being “Everyone Stomp The Noob” affairs.
Add in the perspective I got from online sources was just “play like you got a pair. Git gud scrub, plya 2 win” etc. Which just isn’t my bag.
“Play like you got a pair” was a pretty good reason to hope PP failed all by itself. The fact that their obnoxious, toxic attitude filtered down and killed the game isn’t a surprise, but karma.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Complete anecdote in terms of “evidence”? I dabbled in Warmachine when it first came out. But I was put off by the few games I could find being “Everyone Stomp The Noob” affairs.
Add in the perspective I got from online sources was just “play like you got a pair. Git gud scrub, plya 2 win” etc. Which just isn’t my bag.
“Play like you got a pair” was a pretty good reason to hope PP failed all by itself. The fact that their obnoxious, toxic attitude filtered down and killed the game isn’t a surprise, but karma.
It also hasn't been a thing since... 2009, I think?
As ever I’m not knocking the game, or even the player base as such. Just illustrating I was unlucky enough to be shown the ropes by those solely interested in quick and easy wins against a clueless newcomer.
That would put me off any game. It just so happened to be Warmachine for me.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
