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Well after seeing the MCs that the nids have has me a bit worried as one of the one can appear via multiple deepstrike(or something.)So what follows will feature in my 2000pt IW list.

Sorc w/terminator armour,MoT,warptime,Bolt of change.195pts
5xTermies,4xcombi-plas,4xPF,RAC,MoT.275pts

The rest of the list is rino rush and three vindis.
All of the rinos have an icon so having the termies deep strike isn't a problem but I want to know could the squad stand up to those big scary bugs that have me worried.
All advice is welcome.

I still don't like the Reaper here. The lack of penetrating power means you're unlikely to through his armor, and it will have less impact against anything else the 'Nids have. Take the Heavy Flamer instead, for those targets of opportunity. The Sorcerer is too expensive and unimportant; the squad can function on their own, and as an IC in CC he will get singled out and give up a KP even if you down the Carnifex.

The thing with Chaos Terms is to keep them dirt cheap

10 Terms w/ 10 combiplasma and 2 PF w/ Glory Icon 400 points.

Thats 20 ST7 plasma shots in turn. More than enough to devastate a MC.

The reaper is there to have a permanant sourse of str7 and the sorc has the ability to to give out a high strength AP1 shot that rerolls to hit and wound(with the luck of the dice gods. )And the ability to ID any thing that is pretty dangerous without eternal warrior is a good thing too.

ONE shot from BoC is the problem.
At most 6 shots for 55 points...and if they are in combat, less than 6 shots.
6 Shots that cover saves can screw over.
_______

I agree with the no reapers. AP4 is a real downer on it vs. MC...while it's crazy overpriced for any other target it would shoot at otherwise.

Lash + double Hvy flamers instead?

I would second the combi-plasma spam if you're set on terminators. But in my experience terminators aren’t the best anti MC. You pay a lot for a 2+ save on a 1 W model that is most times going to swing at lower I in CC. And with only PW’s you’ll be wounding on 6’s when they inevitably end up in CC anyway. I’m not a chaos player but aren’t their other options to get 3+ plasma guns in a squad? I don’t know if the idea is to counter deep strike against the big nid with the termies but that seems really unreliable to me. I personally think the better option is use those 400+ points and buy every plasma gun you can, then lash the big bug where you want him.

the Idea of lash really doesn't appeal to me(don't ask why but but I don't like lash sorcs or defilers)

maybe a heavy flamer would be better than a RAC but with its lower str I'm a bit pesimistic.
the rest of the list has about 4xflamers and 3xdemolisher canons so there is plenty of template saturation
But what I want this squad to do is to able to react to the presence of a MC being near one of my rinos and after it has dealt with it still pose a threat to the rest of the enemy

what ArtfcllyFlvrd is thinking about is chosen
who could be possible choice but infiltrating 4xplasma guns is going to draw attention but by having them in a rino means they can't all be fired

For 5 Terminators I'd probably go with something like this:
2x Combi-Plasma, 2x Combi-Melta, 1x Heavy Flamer, 2x Fist weapon = 195 points.
This way you have a variety of S8 weapons for insta-killing things like Warriors and the Plasma/Power Weapons will help punch through armor saves. Heavy Flamer is to knock out any hordies surrounding your target.

I'd leave it without an HQ but if you really want one, I'd take a Wind of Chaos Terminator Sorcerer.
WoC will be another template to thin hordes and its wounding any MC 50% of the time.

Generally a bad configuration.

Let's start with the Sorcerer: There's five reasons to have a Sorcerer (1) Familiars, (2) Personal Icons, (3) Force Weapon + Warptime, (4) Terminator Armour/Bike/Steed, (5) Independent Character. So two out of five isn't bad.

But consider that Warptime lets you re-roll hits and wounds and Monstrous Creatures have more than one wound. And that you're going to use Deep Strike. You're better off with a Combi-Plasma Gun (use Warptime to avoid 1s as well as get 2+s). Use the points from the Bolt of Change to get the Wind of Chaos, which combines wonderfully with Warptime. And then get a Familiar and Doombolt for when the Combi-Weapon runs out. Finally, take a Personal Icon, because those Terminators shouldn't be dropping alone and should have Obliterators and Lesser Daemons dropping in with them.

As for the Terminators themselves, they forsake all the advantages of being Chaos Terminators. You should give them the Icon of Slaanesh to maximize their staying power, dump the Powerfists for Champion status, but keep the Reaper for range because its range and its Strength are more important than its AP when Terminators have no transport.

Now remember, you land, shoot up a Monstrous Creature and will probably get swamped with little poisonous buggers. That's why you want the Champions to have the Icon of Slaanesh, for the I5. Their A3 x5 + the A3 Warptimed Instant Death of the Sorcerer should murder Monstrous Creatures and hordes of little bugs alike.

So

Chaos Sorcerer
w/Mark of Tzeentch, Combi-Plasma, Personal Icon, Familiar, Doombolt, Wind of Chaos, Warptime

Chaos Terminators
w/5x Terminator Champions, 4x Combi-Plasma, 1x Reaper Autocannon, 1x Icon of Slaanesh.

The heavy flamer is way more useful against swarms of small nids than the reaper is against a MC with a 3+ save. Reapers are most usefull against AV10 open top vechiles, not MC.

Combi-spam will kill a MC, but you're talking about spending 400 points to fire 1 shot in the game to kill 1 MC that probably costs about 130 points. Then what?

I would mix in some LC instead. It boosts a 30 point termie up from 2A to 3A and doubles their chances of wounding a MC. They still need 6's to wound, but with rerolls every 3rd hit should score a wound on a MC with no armor save.

MoT is the way to go if you're going to CC a MC. The 4+ save is a must have.

A sorcerer should have winds to deal with swarms, and warptime to deal with big nids. They took away eternal warrior so warptime+forceweapon could=dead carnifax.

Remember that many of the larger bugs are going to Instant Death the Sorceror due to S8+ or boneswords.

Basic Termis with the Mark of Slaanesh or Khorne and combis/heavy flamer will probably work okay. Not great, but okay. They're still cheap enough to give you some return at their points value.

Mark of Nurgle/Tzeentch is a baaaad idea. So many units have poison that Nurgle Terminators will probably get buried by wounds, and Tzeentch offers no protection against a gazillion regular attacks.

Fortunately the Sorcerer's I5 will see him going either before or simultaneously with the Monsterous Creatures: If something has a Bonesword, chances are that only one will be able to get in base-to-base contact, and his Iv4+ should help if anything survives.

Warptime is both for close combat and for combining with shooting, either a Combi-Weapon or a Doombolt (wounds on 6 but re-rolling 2+ to hit and 6s to wound means an average of one wound and a maximum of three) for shooting monsters, and Wind of Chaos for swarms - wounding something ~75% of the time with no saves, armour or cover.

On that note, I expect people will start taking second glances at Chaos Lords of Slaanesh with Blissgivers once the monstrous hordes hit the table. He would do rude things to a unit of Warriors, or a Carnifex, or a Tervigon.

I agree that these new Tyranids will give the Blissgiver a big boost in desirability...
The only issue is needing to roll a 6 to wound vs. the tougher stuff, but vs. Warriors...nasty stuff I will admit.

winds is far more useful against MCs than Bolt of change looking at the options again and nurglitch I will take that load out with my sorc as it is far better
the icon of slaanesh is good but I do prefer the added protection of tzeench and then I don't feel guilty about take a PF
and the unit is starting to look like this:

sorc
w/Mark of Tzeentch, Familiar, Doombolt, Wind of Chaos, Warptime
5x termies,4x Combi-Plasma, 1x Reaper Autocannon,2xPF and 2xLC

This is a bit different from the earlier draft and will hopefully land a wound or two CC
but could someone let me know if MCs usually have a high or low Initiative if it is high the IoS slannesh is a definite yes

Hive Tyrants, Trigon Primes, and all Warrior variants have Shadow in the Warp.

The Warptime Sorceror is forced to test for leadership on 3d6 to cast.

If Deathleaper, who's already being called an every-list-option, is included, Sorceror leadership is d3 lower, as well.

So Warptime and Force Weapons are going to be of very, very low use much of the time. Especially on slow units like Chaos Terms.

Similarly any Warrior squad is going to have a Lash Whip, which reduces attacking models' initiative to 1, just for the purpose of basing up an IC.

Can the Sorceror kill a warrior? Yes, if he lives through the I5 attacks that reroll 1s to miss and wound on a rerollable 3+. And if he passes the 3d6 psychic test to cast warptime. Or if he manages to wound once, and beat the aforementioned psychic test. Or if the bug player didn't just instant death him with dual boneswords....

The Sorceror might then kill a 45 point model.

As to killing MCs, if he can find one that isn't in cover, and if he can get through the aforementioned Shadow in the Warp 3d6 psychic test, and if he can avoid its little bug screen....

The Chaos Codex can beat Nids. But Terminator Sorcerors and Blissgiver Lords definitely aren't going to be the way they do it.

warsmith pyrus:

There's the 50% increase in protection the Icon of Tzeentch gives you. However, that increase in protection will only be against Monsterous Creatures and Boneswords, when what you' really going to fear is hordes of small creatures. The Icon of Slaanesh will provide a better defense: killing them before they kill you! The Sorcerer should be activating Warptime at the beginning of every player turn and using his Force Weapon in combats with Monstrous Creatures to cause instant death, and the huge number of attacks from your Terminator should well make up for the difficulty in wounding.

Some Monstrous Creatures like the Carnifex and Tervigon will have low initiative, and others will have a high initiative like the Hive Tyrant. But that's not what it's for: you want protection from hordes of little bugs because remember if you Deep Strike then your opponent will be able to arrange skirmishing screens of smaller bugs between you and the Monstrous Creatures so you have to be ready for them. They won't ignore armour, so all that you'll spend on the invulnerability bonus will be wasted when what you really need to do is to thin them out before they can load those masses of poison attacks on your Terminators whose Sv2+ will eventually fail.

The idea of taking single Lightening Claws is good though: I advise taking four rather than two and two Powerfists. Hitting first is better.

warsmith pyrus wrote:
sorc
w/Mark of Tzeentch, Familiar, Doombolt, Wind of Chaos, Warptime
5x termies,4x Combi-Plasma, 1x Reaper Autocannon,2xPF and 2xLC

This unit costs far too much relative to the bugs you're relying on it to kill. The Sorceror is not reliable due to Shadow in the Warp and Deathleaper. The Termis are over-kitted for their relative effectiveness. You're bordering on what, 400 points in 6 models?

4 Terminators with 3x combi plasma, heavy flamer, and 1-2 Power Fist. Now you have 4 models for 150 points that can reliably put 3-4 wounds on a Monstrous Creature in shooting and burn little bug screens if necessary. It's tough enough to stand up to other units in the assault and cheap enough that you don't care if it dies. Tyranid armies are not going to reward peopel who spend points inefficiently.

This is a bit different from the earlier draft and will hopefully land a wound or two CC
but could someone let me know if MCs usually have a high or low Initiative if it is high the IoS slannesh is a definite yes

It's going to be very hard for you to initiate the assault against stuff that you want to assault. It's either faster than you, or surrounded bya little bug screen. IoS is an okay upgrade, but expect many models to be assaulting you at I5 due to Furious Charge benefits.

this squad that I'm drafting here is not the sole answere to the entire nids army its to take down the tough stuff the flamers and demolisher canons are to decimate the the other stuff.
the units you listed are quite scary but the termies are meant to deepstrike beside a unit that has a serious threat of beaing eaten by the scary nid and use one of the very avialable icon to deepsrike off of and help them defend against the threat I hope that clarifies the purpose.

sourclams:

The unit is designed to go after Monstrous Creatures, not Warriors. Warriors are what the unit's Bolters and Autocannon are for.

Certainly the Sorcerer is going to have to deal with the Shaow in the Warp, but that's what, 12" range, and not on Carnifexes, or Tervigons, or regular Trygons, or Mawlocs, etc. Dropping him right next to a unit of Warriors with Scything Talons and twinned-Boneswords sounds like bad tactics rather than any knock against the strategy of a Monstrous Creature Termination Squad.

One presumes there will be an army of Chaos Space Marines backing these Terminators up, and that said army will be busy shooting the heck out stuff like Tyrants and Warriors while the Terminators go terminate some Monstrous Creatures.

I think the real danger to Terminators will be the little bugs like Hormagaunts and Termagants that will be screening the Monstrous Creatures and who could overwhelm the Terminators rather than the Monstrous Creatures they're intended to kill or the Warriors they should stay the heck away from (leave those to the Vindicators...). The Icon of Slaanesh will be a very useful defensive item here, I think.

For little bugs I think a Nurgle Daemon Prince with Nurgle's Rot will make Tyranid players evolve new teeth to gnash.

Maybe IoS the better choice here and I suppose having to hack and slash at the tar pits before getting at aMC me would probably save more lives in the long run
But in regards to the force weapon I was under the impression that most MCs get Eternal Warrior so thats why I thought the 4++ save would be needed for a prolonged battle rather than the high Initiative

warsmith pyrus:

The 4th edition codex gave all Tyranids in Synapse immunity to Instant Death. Apparently that's changed with the 5th edition codex. The Iv4+ save on a Chaos Sorcerer of Tzeentch will go well with his I5, the basic Initiative of all Chaos Sorcerers, and is a good idea because it also allows him to take an extra psychic and use two psychic powers in the same turn.

@Nurglitch:
Looking at it that way,I5 of the slaanesh termies gives the squad a better synergy withe the second sorc I listed as it will not only make the CC turn faster but it is cheaper and has a better survivability.
So the squad would look similar to the one you posted earlier.

Chaos Sorcerer
w/Mark of Tzeentch, Familiar, Doombolt, Wind of Chaos, Warptime.

Chaos Terminators
w/5x Terminators, 4x Combi-Plasma, 1x Reaper Autocannon,4xLC,1x Icon of Slaanesh.

This squad looks to be more likely to eat up those pesky swarms and get the jump on the MCs(Hopefully)

warsmith pyrus: Does the Chaos Sorcerer have Terminator Armour?

Nurglitch wrote:
Let's start with the Sorcerer: There's five reasons to have a Sorcerer (1) Familiars, (2) Personal Icons, (3) Force Weapon + Warptime, (4) Terminator Armour/Bike/Steed, (5) Independent Character. So two out of five isn't bad.

Just need a point of clarification on #3 - Are you allowed to use warptime and the insta-kill aspect of the Force Weapon, or were you just mentioning it for it's power weapon characteristics? I thought it was one psychic ability a turn so I figured using one precluded the other. I don't have my rulebook in front of me but I swear I remember reading something to that effect.

The Mark of Tzeentch confers the ability to use two psychic powers in a single turn, and the same power twice if its not a psychic shooting power, which is either Warptme, which is pointless, and Gift of Chaos.

That means that if the Sorcerer cast Warptime, then he can use another power such as his Force Weapon.

Really I should have qualified "Sorcerer" with Sorcerer of Tzeentch.

Nurglitch wrote:sourclams:

The unit is designed to go after Monstrous Creatures, not Warriors. Warriors are what the unit's Bolters and Autocannon are for.

But it's bad at it, regardless. They're slow, they're subject to Reserve rolls, and the absolute earliest they can assault is turn 3, likely turn 4.

The best option for taking down MCs is 5-plasmagun Chosen. Khorne Berzerkers do a better job at killing them in the assault than the Terminator loadouts that are being suggested.

Chaos Sorcs and Marked Terminators with expensive wargear options are a cute gimmick, and their gimmick isn't even reliable. You're better off sticking to "fundamentals" and relying on innately strong units.

@Nurglitch
The sorc does indeed have termie armour that was a mistake on my part

@Sourclams
How praytell is the ''gimmick'' unreliable with every attack bar two they are re-rolling to wound and the sorcerer doing better provided a ld test is passed

warsmith pyrus wrote:

@Sourclams
How praytell is the ''gimmick'' unreliable with every attack bar two they are re-rolling to wound and the sorcerer doing better provided a ld test is passed

It comes down to points efficiency and actual effectiveness on the tabletop.

This loadout costs you 400 points. Let's look at how effectively it's spent:

It has one turn of effective shooting, which will "bag" you one MC without cover, or about 1/2 of one MC with cover.

After that, it's down to close combat. In the favorable situations where you are able to charge through clear terrain to take advantage of your higher I, your 4 LC/1 PW Terminator are going to put out:

4x3x2/3/6+8-1.3/6 = 2.4 wounds from the Lightning Claws and .33 wounds from the power weapon model against T6. Just round it up to 3. The Sorceror will put out .3 wounds without Warptime and 1 wound with Warptime. So in close combat, the super unit is not able to kill one Carnifex, unless the Sorceror passes his warptime test.

Now compare it to 2 Warptime Daemon Princes who are far more mobile and actually cost less than the super squad:

10*2/3/2: 3.33 wounds if neither passes its Warptime test, and 6 wounds if they do. The Daemon princes are as good as the super unit without magic, and 150% as effective with magic. "But the Daemon Princes don't shoot!" Quite true, but they also don't have the risk of sitting in reserve for 3+ turns.

What other options are available? A full squad of Khorne Berzerkers in a rhino with SKull Champ and Fist, and 4 Termicide with 4x combi plasma deep striking off their icon. You have 8 plasma shots plus the Zerk CC ability;

36 attacks *2/3/3 = 8 regular wounds, or 2.7 wounds against T6 3+ armor, and another 2.2 Power Fist wounds. So for half the points of the super squad, 10 Zerks with a Fist kill MORE MCs reliably, and even though they're probably taking attacks back at I1, they're on the third Carnifex/Tervigon before their effectiveness drops below that of the super squad.

Finally, you can take 3x4 Termicide with 4x Combi Plasma. That's 24 plasma shots, and assuming they "always" get the charge that many Terminators are putting out 4 wounds per turn of combat.

These are all viable options for fewer points than the Super Squad. That's why I call the Super Squad a cute gimmick; it has all these toys that should be able to ROXXOR, but when you actually compare it to the other options in the Chaos Codex you quickly realize that toys tend to add a lot of cost to the unit, but don't give you a huge amount of return. A good unit should simply be good, without toys.

What would you rather have? 6 Terminators or:

2 MCs
12 Terminators
4 Terminators and 10 Marines

I think you'd be insane to spend MORE points on a unit that is on average LESS effective than the other three options I put on paper. CSM Terminators are great because they cost 35 points with a combi weapon. If you want to take anti MC Terminators, take 12 of them and deal with big bugs in the shooting phase. It's just easier.

@Sourclams:
one thing I did forget to mention was that I do have metal box full of zerkers with a PF champ(don't know why I forgot it)

but in serious terms would you feel that if I had 2x4 termies with 4xcombi-plas and a heavy flamer deep striking off of an Icon(of which I have four)and then maybe have a few lesser daemons to fill points,or is a massive termie squad better I have never tried one and am curious to to hear of peoples experience with them

He could but there are betteer choices. Go with 5 Man Nurgle Termis or Khorne I like nurgle cuz there tougher. But with 3 pairs of lightning claws and a Nurgle Jump pack lord with Nurgle Daemon Weapon. That guy puts trigons to shame they have no invuln save and he wounds on a 4+ he rips them to shreds.