Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Opening a new thread by request from Manchu. Everyone is free to discuss, but personal attacks and trolling will be dealt with, with enthusiasm.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/275034.page
Original post from Strider:

Strider



Gallery Votes: 0
Posts: 135

Joined: 2010/01/05 17:14:18
IP: 207.161.199.69
Offline
I last purchased GW plastics on the release day of Black Reach. Since then, I've pretty much been playing Warmachine/Hordes and working entirely with metal. I always like the look of the Legion of Everblight Warbeasts. But I hate the hobgoblins that are pretending to be the winter elves known as the Nyss.

So I ordered some Wood Elf plastics to use as stand ins. I just finished building my 3 Glade Riders that will sub in as Nyss Raptors (light cav with bows, unit size 3 or 5 miniatures).

What a joy they were to put together. Thanks to their light weight and plastic cement, pinning wasn't need at all. I got to pose the miniatures how I want and customizing the leader was easy and fun (I turned her long spear into a short spear as Raptors don't have "reach"). Also, GW's cavalry looks really good on 50mm warmachine style round bases.

I have a metal angelius to build and quite frankly, I just don't want to work with metal for a while after working with GW's nice soft plastic. And the cost per miniature-- Less than $5 a pop vs. $15+ for the metal ones from PP.

I know I keep harping on it, but I really wish GW had a set of rules that made their miniatures valuable in play as individual miniatures. The glade riders are so much cooler based individually on large circles than all bunched up en masse on a movement tray.

Now I'm starting to think which other Warmachine/Hordes factions can I make from GW plastics. I love how the WM/H rules make models feel important, valuable and dynamic in game. I love the options and ease of construction of GW's plastic kits. Seems like I found a good match up to give me everything I want out of miniature gaming.

Well just to get the second thread back on track and back on topic, I would say as a long time GW customer that the current range of plastic minis are the best I have ever seen, both in terms of their detail and their 'usability'. Take the models released with Space Hulk for example, they were of hitherto unprecedented detail levels.

It is in GW's best interests to further push and promote plastic over metal - I would imagine the costs to produce plastic, both material and moulds, are cheaper yet they can price and sell plastic kits at more or less an equivalent to metal.

I apologize for getting us off task, guys.

Manchu wrote:Concerning the topic at hand, I have often wondered if I'd prefer plastic sisters to my current metal ones. I've heard lots of folks complain about the girls' "static poses" but I don't mind them at all. The detail is excellent and I appreciate not having to do more than stick their backpacks on. Although the usual debate is whether one has to paint their models or not, I'm much less enthusiastic about assembly (much less conversion *gasp) than painting--which to me is the rewarding part of the "hobby" side of things. But after seeing the Blood Claw/Grey Hunter kits, I'm beginning to think I might end up having a moment like Frozenwaste's with regard to his Wood Elves if there were to be plastic sisters (breath is not being held). Strangely enough, we're on opposite ends of the experience--I'm just getting into PP's stuff!

filbert wrote:Purely from a modelling standpoint, I prefer plastic because it is easier to glue (without dealing in the frustration of pieces not sticking, or gluing fingers together - ref nid gargoyles) plus it allows a greater scope and flexibility in poses and dynamism IMO.

Manchu wrote:You're right about all those points, filbert. But sisters come in two pieces: (1) their backpacks and (2) everything else. There's no flexibility at all in poses and there's hardly anything to worry about with glue. The tradeoff I'd have to make is less time doing something I don't particularly like (assembly) for the chance to have a (potentially, probably) cooler looking army.

filbert wrote:I agree, some metal kits are extremely simple to assemble and that is a good thing for some people. In my case, I take a perverse pleasure out of assembly and quite enjoy putting stuff together - some metal kits are great and some are just plain horrible. Come to think of it, the worst ones in my experience have been the plastic / metal hybrids when nothing wants to glue together and you end up holding minis together and blowing like a demented chimp trying to get it to set.

tl;dr--Even though everyone goes on about wanting plastic troops, I have reservations about plastic sisters because I like not having to do assembly/am willing to sacrifice convertability. Filbert assures me that plastics are indeed much better.

Haha, that makes it sound like I am some sort of gaming overlord who dictatates taste to all and sundry!

Not at all, one man's meat is another's poison - some people enjoy assembly, others want to crack on with painting or gaming. From a purely technical perspective, I prefer not supergluing my fingers together!

I also think we should perhaps make a distinction between the single / one part metal blisters (like the SoB example) and the multi part metal and plastic behemoths that are a modellers worst nightmare.

I gotta say I love the easy to assemble BFSP and AOBR minis, they make me so happy.

Same goes for LOTR plastics.

I generally play PP with strangers, so I usually want to stick to the metals. I hate some of them though- Troll Champions are my public enemy number 1. I've been thinking of ways to convert them perhaps using some of my black orc bitz.

I'm of mixed minds:

I prefer plastics for their conversion opportunities and their ability to personalize them. Plus, as noted they are so so so much easier to put together generally, and stay together.

I prefer metals for true hordes that I am not converting and am just painting. But they have to be full cast: ie valhallans or fire dragons. Multipart metals make my butt itch. hey are terrible to put together and never stay together. As a rule if I have to pin it I won't and would much rather just throw it against the wall and run screaming with a shotgun.

Having played since models were only metal, I do miss the heft of the models. It felt as if they didn't tip over as easily. However, with plastics that is easily remedied with a weight underneath the base.

The details are amazing. Plastics = win.

I love plastic. I wish everything were plastic. Honestly, the ease of conversion is what keeps me buying GW kits, or else I probably wouldn't even play anymore. The occasional metal full-cast mini is ok, but I'd prefer all plastic, all the time.

Just to go back to some of the points we were discussing in the first iteration of this thread, does Dakka think that if GW abandoned metal altogether, would the cost of the plastic kits fall a little if metal blisters were no longer being used as a stick to beat you with? Would GW sell more if they lowered the price of plastic?

Edit: Just to clarify, the big cheese(s) at GW have previously admitted that the cost of plastic kits has been deliberately brought inline with equivalent metal ones. If this were no longer applicable and the comparison was no longer valid, would the cost fall?

Plastics are most defiantly the future in terms of possibility and ease of conversion.

However the primary purpose of plastics always was IMHO to enable core troops to become affordable and in that respect I think GW have lost their way. Most of the recent plastic releases have been almost, if not as, expensive as their metal predecessors. In fact the LotR range is the only GW range I can think of where plastic core troops still represent a significant saving.

The recent rise of alternative plastic manufactures (Mantic, Warlord, Vitrix, Perry, Wargames Factory) are destroying GW in regards to affordability.

filbert wrote:I would imagine the costs to produce plastic, both material and moulds, are cheaper yet they can price and sell plastic kits at more or less an equivalent to metal.

This isn't strictly true. I'm sure anyone who's been to GD has seen the modelling display. Those rubbery centrifuge moulds they make for metal models are cheap as chips (relatively). As metal models don't tend to sell to the same volume as plastics (I think the idea is you're less likely to buy more than one Abaddon, for instance, but you're likely to buy tons of CSM), keeping the costs down on a limited run is a must.
Over time, these moulds do degenerate, which is why we (hopefully) see classic models resculpted time and time again.

To create those master tools for plastic moulding costs about £30'000 (about $48'000), so GW have to be absolutely sure they're going to make a return, and fast in GW's case. Any business investing that kind of money wants to make a hefty return on it; so if metal SoBs are selling, will the cost of creating plastics pay for itself? If it ain't broke after all...

On a personal note, I agree; everything should be plastic. As an Eldar player, I dislike the amount of metal in my army. The look of my force is very static and really rather 2E/3E. It's more of a shame as one of my most regular gaming buddies also collects Eldar, so the limited poses really show. The unfortunate fact of the matter is me and countless others are constantly buying up the metal Fire Dragons for instance, and this, if anything, proves that GW are doing it right.

I would love to see a day where all of my hobby is plastic multi-parts. Look at the SM commander or the CSM termie lord kits. That's a great HQ choice, and well worth the money. An Eldar equivalent would rock; options for Farseer/Autarch etc. I'd pay out for that. I'm sure a lot of people would. However, will GW sell enough of them in a fiscal year to get back the return? Thirty grand for the tool, not including the sculptor's time, 'Eavy Metal time, plus the price of the raw materials; plastic, packaging etc., then you've got stock movement/storage/logistics to consider. Citadel will be selling these into GW at consignment too, so each unit probably selling in at £6 or so, so realistically GW would need to make roughly a million final retail sales to cover the costs.

Seeing how GW is all run by corporate board members, weigh up the risk and receipt and sometimes it's just not worth it. It's a sad fact of the matter.

Whilst I'm on-side, I want to see all-plastic Warhammer; I just doubt I'll ever see it.

filbert wrote:Just to go back to some of the points we were discussing in the first iteration of this thread, does Dakka think that if GW abandoned metal altogether, would the cost of the plastic kits fall a little if metal blisters were no longer being used as a stick to beat you with? Would GW sell more if they lowered the price of plastic??

I don't want this to go the same route as before but this is a part of the discussion regarding plastics. I don't think prices would go down if the entire line was plastic. As Insaniak has pointed out elsewhere, multi-part plastic models may be just as expensive as one/two-piece metal ones. Also, the price of the model is not substantially a reflection of the materials used to make it. I would disagree with LuciusAR that the point of using plastic was ever to drop prices. Rather, from GW's annual reports, it seems that the purpose was to insulate GW from shifts in metal prices that might effect their short-term profitability (according to the 2009 report, this seems to be why prices went up last winter). I would guess that there are other reasons, however, such as the (apparent) fact that most hobbyists seem to prefer plastic models.

Much prefer plastic. Easy to glue and assemble, easy to convert. And one of the most important aspects, easy to remove mold lines. I hate the uneven castings and mold lines that you have to try and fix on metallic minis. (Resin too)

GG

I prefer plastic. After playing Warmachine for awhile(lugging the heavy models around, Im happy that they are making plastic models), it is nice to deal with plastic. I also like to convert alot od my models and plastic makes it so much easier. I think we fail to realize how much extra bitz and cool things we get in the plastic boxes.

I have also got into historicals because you can get high quality plastics. I hope all companies start making the change to plastic or continue to make great plastic kits.

Cheers

Plastic is the way to go in the future.
Remember all those fickly hybrid kits?
Sooner or later every vehicle will be multipart plastic in several ( 3 ? ) variants.
Most infantry models too. Some less numerous models like characters and elite will stay metal.
And I welcome it.
Because Plastic is easy to work with, allows later upgrades and variants, fits better, stays together.
Looking at the current range of buildings, plastic was the material to make it possible.

where is my plastic T-hawk?

Now, it is a shame to have models with movable parts ( TF cannon ) in metal. But there will always be some metal models
and If they are only singular models thats ok. Would really like to see the whole range in plastic.....

So:
plastic

At least for me, plastic is the shizzle. Sorry to slip into chav speak, but it's true.

Yes okay, there are mould lines, but they're simple to remove. Plastic offers better conversion possibilities, the option for more dynamic poses, and more detail. Of course, it should be cheaper than most metals, but it's GW. What'cha goona do?

So, yay plastic!! And may it become more affordable in the future (a boy can dream).

I much prefer plastics.

I used to love metal to work with, back when citadel minis had a degree of lead in the mix, the metal took more detail and had weight and a degree of pliability. The current metal seems unpleasantly brittle, last kits I picked up were Zag and Badruk to do my combo warboss and the metal felt oddly light and sharp.

The multipart plastics also allow for very easy kitbashing, which affords even the beginners to modelling with the opportunity to make unique and personal pieces, thereby adding to the hobby factor.


NB:
I apologise for my own part in the last thread getting locked, we did go off topic on the price issue. It is one I'd like to see discussed one day, it should just be decided before hand whether we can start taking chunks out of each other or if we have to curtsey and flutter fans.

I agree with everyones logic, and I would on face value agree that plastic is better. But for some reason my favourite GW models are always the metal ones. And why do some of the plastic multipart unit kits never look as good as the metal models they replaced. For example, SM scouts.

Plastics all the way. Figs you get in small numbers I can forgive being metal, such as Lictors and Venomthropes and what not, but I would never build an army out of metal troops. I converted all my own Plaguebearers and Beasts of Nurgle out of Vampire Counts figs just so they they'd be plastic and not metal. Gargoyles have been around forever, and I've only ever had a dozen or so of them. New plastic box comes out, and the first thing I purchased for the new book, even before the much coveted new Trygon fig, were two boxes of Gargoyles, and I'm wanting a third.

And of course, if you're someone who doesn't get around to painting very often like myself, I think unpainted plastic looks much better than unpainted metal.

p.s. I can't Not change my Avatar! I've got 100 of these things to cycle thru!

Love plastics, love assembly. If it were up to me, I'd entirely scrap Pewter minis from GW's line and put plastics in, though I'd still offer Pewter stuff online for Customer Order.

I enjoy plastic because it's easier to assemble, easier to convert, has more potential in terms of assembly options, it's easily kitbashed with other plastic bits, there's no pinning unless you want to swap stuff, it's probably much cheaper to produce, and primer and paint actually stay on it unlike pewter garbage.

HI all.
I agree, for conversions and assembly plastic minatures are far easier to work with.

However, as Perry Minatures are equal to GW best quality plastic minatures, (if not slightly better), yet are a fraction of the price, when GW plc say plastic minatures should be as over priced as GW metal minatures they replace, I STRONGLY DISAGREE.

I prefer metal. I like the plastics alot and they can be more affordable (Non-GW), but metal just has a sharper, crisper look to it. And I think metal takes paint better than plastic.

Crimson Devil wrote:I prefer metal. I like the plastics alot and they can be more affordable (Non-GW), but metal just has a sharper, crisper look to it. And I think metal takes paint better than plastic.

I haven't had so much as a single flake of paint chip off any of my plastics when they get handled a little rough.

The same can't be said for any of my pewter stuff. Or anyone else's for that matter - going off of some of the armies I've seen at the FLGS

I've always preferred plastic for the ease of assembly alone.

But I think they're nicer to play with too. Plastic doesn't need to be handled with the same care as metal minis do and are more easily repaired if damaged.
I once dropped an old metal space marine sergeant on the floor and the Crux Terminatus on his shoulderpad got pretty much flattened.
The image of my painstakingly painted miniature slamming into the hard tiled floor accompanied with the heartbreaking thud of flattening pewter haunts me to this day.

metallifan wrote:I haven't had so much as a single flake of paint chip off any of my plastics when they get handled a little rough.

The same can't be said for any of my pewter stuff. Or anyone else's for that matter - going off of some of the armies I've seen at the FLGS

QFT *sigh. My sisters are the chipping chippies, right down through the primer usually. Very annoying. But I do love them, even so.

It's because the current GW primer is -made- to sit on plastic, thanks to ~90% of their stuff being made of it. If it was actually metal primer, it wouldn't flake or chip off every time something smacked into it.

Just another reason to chuck out Pewter minis from their line.

Metal all the way for me. Sure GW is getting better with theirs, but they still have that problem of the line between two different parts of a model being blurred. (See skaven plague monks for a good example of this) I see that much more rarely in metal models.

I do agree MeanGreenStompa that something about the current metal they use seems off. Compare the old metal skaven warlord model to a new plague censer bearer; something is just different.

Metallifan, as far as primer goes, don't use GW primer then?

I'm just amused to see a guy who's name I'm going to purposely mispronounce as Metal Fan advocating how much better plastic is.

Personally, I hate metal models. Anything that requires a power tool and vise clamp to convert is a bad thing imo, especially if you live in an apartment/condo and don't have a basement or garage you can build dedicated workshop space in.

Aduro wrote:I'm just amused to see a guy who's name I'm going to purposely mispronounce as Metal Fan advocating how much better plastic is.

I personally prefer jokes that are funny, but whatever floats your boat Good attempt though.