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 DarkStarSabre wrote:
...And plague marines are reaching a point where FW is cheaper too.

Oh man, this is killing me.


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 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I may have to take a break from this site... People often call me opinionated and judgmental, but hot damn!

How many years have Chaos players been complaining about no new units and models?

Ok, picture this. Just picture this.

Your army goes with sub-par releases and odds and ends that don't form a coherent range for years. Close to a decade in fact.

And then, your army becomes a new faction. You lost half your army. The other half have sweeping wargear changes. And the new models are monopose pieces of gak which seem to be even less flexible than the previous release before it.

How happy are you about this?

I said it before, what flexibility have previous kits had? About as much as a Ninja Turtles Action Figure.

Death Guard was my first army. And I enjoy conversions more than painting, and I'm sure I've put more time into conversions than actual play time. But we have always known GW is out to sell models. New models. It's okay to be dissapointed, but don't be surprised.


Monopose are a huge improvement on glue fingers when the left hand doesent fit the right hand, doesent fit the bolter, cover gaps with shoulderpad, repeat another 15-30 times. I've converted models from metals. The truly creative will find ways to convert. Even with Dark Imperium, I've done some head swaps and weapon clippings so mine don't look exactly like everyone else's.

This is intentional to cut down on 3rd party bit sellers plain and simple. From a business perspective it makes as much sense as installing a security camera. And I love me some shop lifting.

Losing units might be a problem, if you're not Forging the Narrative! My formerly Death Guard Terminators, bikers, havocs, Oblits, and various Lords (in pre-heresy colors no less) are the Untainted Sons.

Every new codex and every edition has changed army composition. I can't count how many times I've had to snap off one weapon and replace it with another. Half primed bitz all over the place. Really the only thing I lost out on is combi weapons on my Champs. Saves me 2 points, now it's just a regular plasma gun. And truthfully Plague Marines have been absent in my lists since the start of 6th edition. We lost alot , that's for sure, but what we gained IMO makes up for it.

Sorry if the rant is off-topic.

The problem with monopose is that it gets weird when you want more models of the same type. Before when you had the torso, arm, legs and weapons separate you could give your units some degree of variety in poses with a minimum of modeling skill. A simple twist of the waist and nudge of the head made a world of difference.

The blightlords have set torsos and possibly set arms (haven't looked that deeply at the sprues) which means one in every 5 blightlord is going to have a clone somewhere. This is especially egregious as the Blightlords themselves look unique from each other, so similar (if not outright identical) models will stand out even more.

And I've converted in the era of metal too. Even back then, just having the arm being separate and interchangable gave you quite a number of possibilities. Another thing from the era of metal; even though some models were monopose, you at least got variations on the same model. There was three sculpts of the Chaos Sorceror that, for all intents and purposes at the time, were functionally identical and were made just to give some variety. Most clampacks these days don't even have variation, and the ones that do are very minor (like a wrist swap or helmet).

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
The problem with monopose is that it gets weird when you want more models of the same type. Before when you had the torso, arm, legs and weapons separate you could give your units some degree of variety in poses with a minimum of modeling skill. A simple twist of the waist and nudge of the head made a world of difference.

The blightlords have set torsos and possibly set arms (haven't looked that deeply at the sprues) which means one in every 5 blightlord is going to have a clone somewhere. This is especially egregious as the Blightlords themselves look unique from each other, so similar (if not outright identical) models will stand out even more.

And I've converted in the era of metal too. Even back then, just having the arm being separate and interchangable gave you quite a number of possibilities. Another thing from the era of metal; even though some models were monopose, you at least got variations on the same model. There was three sculpts of the Chaos Sorceror that, for all intents and purposes at the time, were functionally identical and were made just to give some variety. Most clampacks these days don't even have variation, and the ones that do are very minor (like a wrist swap or helmet).

yeah that seems to be the primary issue unless they are very stock standard models. like 200 cadians or normal tacticals.

it sucks to see the same pose characters running around.

 Kriswall wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
What's pissing me off the most is the lack of customization. The main selling point for Warhammer versus other game systems was that you used to be able to get a kit and build each guy slightly different; it wasn't any of this "Piece 34 only goes with piece 57, Arm 4 and 5, and legs 21 and 23" monopose stuff. Now, you can only build kits certain ways, you can't just cut out all the legs, torsos, arms and heads and then sort of "costume design" models to have certain things.

I agree with this 100%. Part of the appeal of this game for me is the modelling aspect. I was excited when the Death Guard were announced... until I realized that pretty much the entire army will be made up of mono posed dudes with the occasional weapon swap. I don't think we've gotten a new Death Guard model that wasn't, barring a weapon swap here and there, completely mono posed. This lack of customization was enough to kill the army for me. The same thing happened with the Primaris Marines. Want an Apothecary? One pose with two helmets. Want a Librarian? One pose with two helmets. Want a Chaplain? One pose, no options. Want a Gravis Captain? One pose, no options. I could see paying $35 each for a poseable kit with a variety of weapon options. $35 for a mono posed kit with no real options? No thanks.

In fact, this is why I am willing to spend more money and go about ordering FW conversion kits and buying Tartaros Terminators rather than buying the plastic Blightlords. This is why I will buy conversion kits and 30k Deathshroud rather than buy that box of 3.

This is why I will source bits on ebay and pay out my arse for them for a character conversion rather than buy a monopose character like the Plague Surgeon or Tallyman - who apparently have silly names like they're unique characters or something.

It's why my Blightspawn is a conversion consisting of a Mk III arm, a MK IV Flamer, a FW torso, CSM legs, a MK IV missile launcher backpack and a spare dryad bit from WFB to be a giant whopping fungal spore growth bursting out the backpack instead of buying a monopose fatman with a fireman's hose.

The primaris at least had some flexibility - not much but heads, and arms/weapons were at least different. You could get away with some conversion....but I'm seeing multiples of the exact same Plague Marine in the DG book, just with a different colour scheme. And that is worrying for a multipart plastic kit. The champions all look...identical. If the only way to get a variant torso or whatever is a £15 monopose clampack...ugh.

I'm very disappointed in this release. After the fantastic 30k plastics (apart from that god awful contemptor that everyone slated) they've gone so far backward it hurts. Like, we're reaching the point where our multipart kits are literally 2-3 components more than a snapfit £10 box for a model. And that's...awful.

Off topic from the monopose topic, but I just got my first decent look at Foul Blughtspawn this morning. Weird dog mask aside, I love the figure. Dude looks like some kind of creepy organ grinder, which got me thinking, that would be an awesome conversion for him, especially with his Nurgling as a monkey. Using the speaker from Tallyman's backpack and some modding to his left arm, it shouldn't be too hard to make him into an organ grinder.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:

I said it before, what flexibility have previous kits had? About as much as a Ninja Turtles Action Figure.

Death Guard was my first army. And I enjoy conversions more than painting, and I'm sure I've put more time into conversions than actual play time.

I like how you answered your own question.

What flexibility have previous kits had? Conversions. Which these monopose, strange fixed torsos and legs or arms and shoulders fused to the body pieces of gak so far do NOT lend themselves to at all. Go on, convert a Deathshroud. Those kits are truly horrible and will involve far more chopping than it's worth. Even the joins are bizarre with shoulders being fused to the body and weapons joining seemingly in the middle of the upper part of the arm rather than as a flat join or ball joint. The Blightlords don't look to be much better either, with shoulderpads being merged to the arms and weapons fixed to those as well.

When you compare this to their OLDER kits...they're clearly inferior. And that's the kicker. It wouldn't take much for these to be amazing kits. It really wouldn't. But they've gone for this simplistic approach which REALLY doesn't lend itself to one of THE armies in the game that is meant to be a paradise for converters. I like the multipart Tactical squads. I like the multi-part characters. I like those because of all the extra stuff you get which you find yourself using later on, randomly so. An odd helmet from a completely unrelated kit or an arm from something completely different can change an entire model's dynamic.

But the current DG stuff and what we're seeing? Ugh. No. Not only are they oddly cut, strangely monopose and remarkably flat in a medium that is supposed to allow for more fancy poses and protruding bits...but they're also designed in such a way that you don't get spares...and what you do really doesn't work well with any other models in the range. Furthermore, any spare bits being brought forward don't work out too well either.

They've taken one of the most conversion centric armies and literally cut that aspect off and it's just...disappointing, especially at that price point. Compare the Plague Marines - who you can see a pattern of fixed torso, fixed legs throughout the codex and fixed poses - to the Mk IV or Mk III kits. And realise how much MORE you can do with that 30k stuff. It mixes better with the existing range, it mixes with FW kits and it has so many more options and bits. And I'm willing to bet the Plague Marine kits have some odd connections which will prevent shoulder pad mixing or backpack mixing.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:


What flexibility have previous kits had? Conversions. Which these monopose, strange fixed torsos and legs or arms and shoulders fused to the body pieces of gak so far do NOT lend themselves to at all. Go on, convert a Deathshroud.

If converting means cutting off a hand at the wrist and gluing on a different hand cut off at the wrist, then yeah, those new kits might not lend themselves to converting in that sense.

I'll take good looking models that require more attention with a knife over awkward multi pose kits, thank you very much.

I'm glad the nurgle fluff talks about all the unique lords of contagion... Then gives them a single monopose model with no options in the codex.

 Kirasu wrote:
I'm glad the nurgle fluff talks about all the unique lords of contagion... Then gives them a single monopose model with no options in the codex.

I noticed that too - it was like they were talking about all sorts of different types of available characters, which they forgot to put in the book. They did the same thing with Malignant Plaguecasters. If you read the fluff before you turned to the army list, you'd probably have thought there were representations of all those special types of lord/caster.

I'd rather convert even a single-piece plastic miniature than a metal one with separate arms any day. These kits are plenty good for converting, mono-pose isn't crippling because it's not hard for a converting-minded player to change it up. Even if it were, that factor is easily offset (and then some) by the better sculpt quality and greater variety of pieces. The Blightlord terminators are head-and-shoulders above generic plastic terminators for converters and an all-around good kit. It's for non-converters that the mono pose and obvious model repeats is a bigger issue. To a converter that's no big deal because we were going to be hacking the models up and restructuring them anyways.

As for invalidating previous armies, I think players are justified in being irritated that their previously DG models are no longer DG. That just kinda sucks, and it would have been nice if stuff like Nurgle-marked bikers/havocs/helldrakes could be included in a DG detachment without disrupting legion rules even if they lacked the Death Guard legion keyword. That way DG players could at least not have to worry about running a separate detachment for those models.

Also, that Blightlord terminators don't have at least power fists is simply a bad move. The new kit should have had either the sword/axe as a new option alongside a power fist option, which would let players use their older terminators as the new ones. Yeah I know GW wants to sell the new ones, but I honestly believe they will lose more sales from former-DG players giving up than they will gain from preexisting-DG players updating. After all, a ton of players would/will buy new terminators regardless because they are new and look better than the old plastics.

Power fists are also the coolest weapon in 40k. I really dig them. Having Termis without an option for power fists is just cruel. My habit of "collecting" cool power fists might force me to buy the champion dude, even though I dislike the idea of a seperate, expensive unit champ.

With the "new release, higher price" stuff back (and a ton of clampack chars at high prices) I'll get only one multi-part Drone if any, as well as a PM kit and a single Plague Crawler instead of two or three. Mold the best bits, use those to convert more Marines and chars from other kits. Less tentacles AND cheaper AND unique. And if the "servo haulers turned into Renault FT light tanks" idea might get me models on the table before the tri-track daemon engines hit shelves.

PS: And Plague Marines two days AFTER my birthday? BOO!

 Nightlord1987 wrote:


Monopose are a huge improvement on glue fingers when the left hand doesent fit the right hand, doesent fit the bolter, cover gaps with shoulderpad, repeat another 15-30 times. I've converted models from metals. The truly creative will find ways to convert. Even with Dark Imperium, I've done some head swaps and weapon clippings so mine don't look exactly like everyone else's.

This is a huge part of it for me. I've played Space Marines for years, and have agonized over making sure to use all the coolest bits and posing them just so to make My Dudes, but I have built, painted, and played with more DG models in the past few months than I did in a couple of years of playing back around 4e. I can give people if they don't like the aesthetics of the new DG models, but you really can't argue that they are bad products. They are superbly made and are serving their purpose of getting people into the hobby and starting a new army. If I get brave in the future and want to expand my Plague Marines with some more non-stock guys, I have no doubt that I'll have an easier time cutting up a new PM box and mixing it with a MkIII box than I would have had with the old metal PM, even with their separate arms.

 Binabik15 wrote:
Power fists are also the coolest weapon in 40k. I really dig them. Having Termis without an option for power fists is just cruel. My habit of "collecting" cool power fists might force me to buy the champion dude, even though I dislike the idea of a seperate, expensive unit champ.

The plague champion from the Dark Imperium set has the same powerfist



and is pretty cheap on ebay

On the upside, people with older terminators can probably get away with using the power fists counts-as either swords or axes. That's good since the kit only comes with three axes (and why the heck take swords). Getting away with using a chainfist as a flail might be trickier though.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:

 Binabik15 wrote:
Power fists are also the coolest weapon in 40k. I really dig them. Having Termis without an option for power fists is just cruel. My habit of "collecting" cool power fists might force me to buy the champion dude, even though I dislike the idea of a seperate, expensive unit champ.

The plague champion from the Dark Imperium set has the same powerfist



and is pretty cheap on ebay

If that's the same one I won't need the champ, because not only did I make a mould for that one already, I also converted the guy to have a *second* power fist (the one from the CSM kit with reposed fingers). And a face plate from the Blight Kings helmet with top knot instead of this mess of a "face" the model comes with.

I guess/hope one can count as a CCW/plague knife, because the loadout doesn't make a lot of sense But he looks like a real beast.

the heads on him and the plaguecaster (and sadly several of the independent characters coming up) are pretty terrible, and annoyingly small compared to a 'normal' head too

 Kirasu wrote:
I'm glad the nurgle fluff talks about all the unique lords of contagion... Then gives them a single monopose model with no options in the codex.

Ah not exactly, the book makes it clear the lord of contagion should have almost no options, the contagion mantle involves very specific equipment afterall.

What we are lacking are the other predefined mantles (lord of poxes was the one I remember), currently those are all being modeled by the generic lord, with different loadouts being presumably different mantles.

So the lord of contagion having few options is entirely consistent with the fluff presented, what is less consistent is having a generic lord rather Jan another 4-5 lords with semi fixed loadouts and unique abilities.

Is amazing how much that tank does right.
Is a tank, but remembers a slug.
Is an artillery piece, but the artillery is a mortar that calls the concept of a cauldron (short and wide), very Nurgle.
Is spiky and rusty, but not too much (and leaves space for the painter to express himself/herself freely).
The anti-personnel weapon (one of them at least) is an higher (relatively) rate of fire weapon that resemble the three-sided Nurgle symbol.
This is exactly how things should be made. Suggestive and thematic without rubbing it in your face.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
Is amazing how much that tank does right.
Is a tank, but remembers a slug.
Is an artillery piece, but the artillery is a mortar that calls the concept of a cauldron (short and wide), very Nurgle.
Is spiky and rusty, but not too much (and leaves space for the painter to express himself/herself freely).
The anti-personnel weapon (one of them at least) is an higher (relatively) rate of fire weapon that resemble the three-sided Nurgle symbol.
This is exactly how things should be made. Suggestive and thematic without rubbing it in your face.

Agreed. When I first saw the image leaks of this tank I was a bit hesitant but now with the new images coming out, thematically it's awesome and fits so well with the army vibe. I'm planning to get a trio of these and deploy them in the nurgle symbol in the backfield to truly complete the fluff

Going to take a little bit of work to make sure they all look individual with the identical marks on the armour plates, but yeah I'm thinking 3 too. Brilliant kit

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
Is amazing how much that tank does right.
Is a tank, but remembers a slug.
Is an artillery piece, but the artillery is a mortar that calls the concept of a cauldron (short and wide), very Nurgle.
Is spiky and rusty, but not too much (and leaves space for the painter to express himself/herself freely).
The anti-personnel weapon (one of them at least) is an higher (relatively) rate of fire weapon that resemble the three-sided Nurgle symbol.
This is exactly how things should be made. Suggestive and thematic without rubbing it in your face.

Agreed. When I first saw the image leaks of this tank I was a bit hesitant but now with the new images coming out, thematically it's awesome and fits so well with the army vibe. I'm planning to get a trio of these and deploy them in the nurgle symbol in the backfield to truly complete the fluff

I think I will wait. Too mad at GW at the moment, ebay later.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
You don't get Havocs for the same reason we (Thousand Sons) don't get Havocs - all marines are plagued/dusted, so marine units that are not plagued/dusted can't be Death Guard/Thousand Sons. They could have made special Plague Havocs but decided to make a half dozen elite slot characters instead.

They chose not to give rules to things unless they have a specific miniature. They make Chaos Havocs, hell they once even made Plague Marine Havocs, but right now they don't, so no model/no rules. It's why there are no Death Guard Terminators with Chainfists, because they don't make Death Guard Terminator models with Chainfists. It's why the Codex has a Lord of Contagion and a non-Nurgle Chaos Lord. They make a Lord of Contageion. They make a Chaos Lord. They do not make a Death Guard Chaos Lord.
It's got nothing to do with fluff.

People seem to keep (intentionally?) missing that the Plague Marine havoc models only had special weapons, and not heavy weapons.



So if you had the original Plague Marine Havoc box set of 1 hero + 4 special weapon models, making them "legal" in 8th would only require splitting them between two squads of Plague marines. = 1 Squad with hero + 2 Specials + more grunts. Other Squad with the other 2 specials + more grunts & hero model. Not exactly "no model, no rules"...


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Warhams-77 wrote:
Via Plaguecaster - B&C forum

Damn. Those new boys are really big.

 Azazelx wrote:

People seem to keep (intentionally?) missing that the Plague Marine havoc models only had special weapons, and not heavy weapons.



So if you had the original Plague Marine Havoc box set of 1 hero + 4 special weapon models, making them "legal" in 8th would only require splitting them between two squads of Plague marines. = 1 Squad with hero + 2 Specials + more grunts. Other Squad with the other 2 specials + more grunts & hero model. Not exactly "no model, no rules"...

Funny thing, CSM Havocs can take 4 Heavy or 4 Special weapons. Explain why the Death Guard lost their 4 special weapon Plague Havoc squads again? No one's really bemoaning the lack of heavy weapons (though it takes the piss after like, 6 pieces of art featuring a plague marine carrying a heavy bolter somewhere in them).

People don't seem to understand the annoyance is specifically linked to the unit disappearing and not getting an equivalent replacement - because most Imperial players don't know what it's like. Literally all the SM Chapters got extra gubbins on top of Codex gubbins with a handful of later exceptions. We've literally had units stripped away and replaced with odd gimmicky things.

I wish we could take an extra plasma rifle or two, or better 2-3 more of the newly added plague weapons. It'd make PM a more attractive choice for me. It's just weird that the traditionally ranged unit now can be equipped far better for melee, not just having global access to power axes+1 for the unit but also unique options as well. Couldn't we also get a couple more guns per squad?

SilverAlien wrote:
I wish we could take an extra plasma rifle or two, or better 2-3 more of the newly added plague weapons. It'd make PM a more attractive choice for me. It's just weird that the traditionally ranged unit now can be equipped far better for melee, not just having global access to power axes+1 for the unit but also unique options as well. Couldn't we also get a couple more guns per squad?

This is odd too. The fact they are trying to force Plague Marines into jack of all trades with all the melee options - like, why not make a new Chosen equivalent unit with those options? It'd have gone down better with existing players and not invalidated one of their units completely. It's just an odd stance that we lost certain units (Chosen, Havocs) and didn't gain any sort of equivalent in return.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:

People seem to keep (intentionally?) missing that the Plague Marine havoc models only had special weapons, and not heavy weapons.



So if you had the original Plague Marine Havoc box set of 1 hero + 4 special weapon models, making them "legal" in 8th would only require splitting them between two squads of Plague marines. = 1 Squad with hero + 2 Specials + more grunts. Other Squad with the other 2 specials + more grunts & hero model. Not exactly "no model, no rules"...

Funny thing, CSM Havocs can take 4 Heavy or 4 Special weapons. Explain why the Death Guard lost their 4 special weapon Plague Havoc squads again?

We never had a Death Guard codex, so we didn't "lose" anything. I was specifically addressing "no model, no rules". Anyone can still run everything they had in 8th as a separate detachment and the models sold as "Death Guard Havocs" are still 100% compatible with the new rules. The only reason to complain about that is if someone is unhappy with not being able to maximise the rules to their absolute advantage with keywords by combining everything that previously used within a CHAOS SPACE MARINE ARMY WITH THE MARK OF NURGLE ALL OVER IT and a DEATH GUARD ARMY WITH NEW AND DIFFERENT TOYS.

No one's really bemoaning the lack of heavy weapons (though it takes the piss after like, 6 pieces of art featuring a plague marine carrying a heavy bolter somewhere in them).

Some people are very much so doing that. Personally, I have most of the original Chaos Renegades with Heavy Weapons models that I purchased on release. I personally think things like the lack of T5 on the Lord, no Chosen, or the lack of Power Fists (and even Heavy Bolters, etc) are clownshoes, but I can see the rationale behind them (mostly). I'll decide how to rejig my army plans later on (DG on hold for the time being) but I'll most likely keep some smaller things within friendly games and run other models as CSM with the mark of Nurgle. Given how different the new models are stylistically and more importantly, size-wise from the various "originals" that I have (1989, 1990, 1993, 1995, 2002, FW) I may choose to run the old as a separate "Nurgle CSM" detachment separate from the new stuff anyway.

People don't seem to understand the annoyance is specifically linked to the unit disappearing and not getting an equivalent replacement - because most Imperial players don't know what it's like. Literally all the SM Chapters got extra gubbins on top of Codex gubbins with a handful of later exceptions. We've literally had units stripped away and replaced with odd gimmicky things.

Death Guard got new things. It's a new and separate army to CSM (which you can still run if you want to). I think it's a good thing that sub-armies (including Imperial, and especially Marine ones) are moving away from simply being <core army +++> though some people explicitly want all of the toys.

 Azazelx wrote:
I personally think things like the lack of T5 on the Lord, no Chosen, or the lack of Power Fists (and even Heavy Bolters, etc) are clownshoes, but I can see the rationale behind them (mostly).

Honestly I think the majority of people who are upset would be alright with the unit loss if it weren't for these things as well. It's one thing to lose units and another to lose units while ALSO dealing with silly crap like this. I can understand the frustration.

it's worth noting there is a difference between wanting all the units available to the main army and some unique ones, and wanting access to an equivalent variety of units. We currently don't have the same breadth of options, even if count every character as a full unit (unless I miss counted the CSM codex).

For me it mostly comes down to which units we lost vs gained. As someone who would prefer to play infantry heavy, the fact we lose infantry options from CSM codex in exchange for a variety of demon engines is kinda annoying to me. I'd have much rather had a jump pack equipped unit of destroyer analogues than more bloat drones, or have plague marines or terminators with more access to special weapons (or heavy for terminators) than rely on blight haulers to fill the same role.

what gets me, is we get an army-wide special rule that feels almost tailor-made for havocs/heavy weapon specialist squads...and we get nothing like that...I guess it still helps our helbrutes, and the 1-2 dudes in a plague marine squad or blightlords squad with a heavy weapon...but that's about it...the blight haulers have their own mini version of the rule so they don't need it...