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Hey DakkaDakka community, new 40k gamer here looking for some help!

I've been playing for a few months now, and I have a handle on the rules and how the game is played; the problem is, I can't really seem to win.

I usually play with some local friends of mine, and I've won a few games, but for the most part they've been victories against people playing their first games. (most of us are new). However, I can't seem to win any 'fair' games. I'm especially terrible against Eldar (and yes, we currently have a strict 'no-tailoring' rule for our army lists, and we draw out of a hat to see who plays whom, so that's not really an issue), and I'm just having some general trouble using my army (Chaos Space Marines currently).

I've read a bunch of tactica pages (here and elsewhere) about what units are good and how to build an army list, and I've come up with a few lists that I think are fairly solid, but I find I don't really know how to use my force coherently. I'm not asking for a one-size-fits-all guide to winning, but I could use some tips about how to best utilize the forces I have at my disposal.

So right now we pretty much only play 1k games (so they don't last so long). The list I recently lost with was the following (If anyone has army tips, I prefer Nurgle CSM lists, so winning with them is my primary concern):

Daemon Prince: [Wings, MoN, Warptime] - 175
7x Plague Marines: [Champion with fist, 2x Melta, Rhino, Icon] - 261
7x Plague Marines: [Champion with fist, 2x Melta, Rhino, Icon] - 261
2x Obliterators: [No extra gear] - 150
2x Obliterators: [No extra gear] - 150
Total: 997

I'm thinking of changing it to the following (less fluffy, but w/e):

Daemon Prince: [Wings, MoS, Lash] - 155
7x Plague Marines: [Champion with fist, 2x Melta, Rhino with Extra Armour] - 271
7x Plague Marines: [Champion with fist, 2x Melta, Rhino with Extra Armour] - 271
7x Chaos Bikers: [IoN, 2x Melta] - 301
Total: 998

If this should be in a different subforum, I'm sorry I'm new; please move it

Thanks!

Your first list is stronger.

Since you have mechanized Plague marine squads you might consider AC/Las preds instead of the obliterators, but switching to the second list would be a mistake IMO.

Yeah, you want more long ranged firepower, which is why the second list is much weaker. The Obliterators are the jack of all trades Heavy Support, who cover everything sufficiently, but falter against the specialized units. You'll want a Predator, or maybe some Havocs with Missile Launchers. I swear by my all Las Predator.

DarkHound wrote:Yeah, you want more long ranged firepower, which is why the second list is much weaker. The Obliterators are the jack of all trades Heavy Support, who cover everything sufficiently, but falter against the specialized units. You'll want a Predator, or maybe some Havocs with Missile Launchers. I swear by my all Las Predator.

Since his plague marines are in tanks, I think that vehicle options are better than non-vehicle options.

Honestly, I think the first list is just fine, and as a new player he probably shouldn't expect to win all the time.

Even experienced players with good lists have a decent chance of losing against other good players with good lists.

I know many people who would consider the first list "cheesy."

I like the first list and it does work well for 1000pt. games. The others have made a good suggestion with Preds. i personally am not a fan but they do have good uses which is normally popping light transports. Also think about dual vindicators for target saturation. If they concentrate fire on them that gives you a chance to bum rush with your plagues in rhinos. If the opposite happens punish them with the cannon for ignoring the vindies. This also works with any heavy support they concentrate fire on. Play aggresively with your troops. If you force your opponent to react instead of pick you apart from range you can force your opponent to make mistakes.

willydstyle wrote:
I know many people who would consider the first list "cheesy."

Oh come now. Have we really fallen so far that taking the competitive options in the codex means you're some sort of powergaming ass?

sourclams wrote:

willydstyle wrote:
I know many people who would consider the first list "cheesy."

Oh come now. Have we really fallen so far that taking the competitive options in the codex means you're some sort of powergaming ass?

Unfortunately, yes, many players have. I try to actively campaign against this point of view in my local community, but it seems futile at times.

Alright, so given the responses so far, I'll keep going with my first list, which leads me to a few more questions:

Oblits are good, but most of mine got obliterated off the table by my opponent's heavy weapons (in this case, Eldar FP's). Naturally I put them in cover, but they still basically got shot up without doing too much damage. Should I not deep strike them (this left my Rhinos the only targets on Turn 1, so they both got destroyed, though the PM's were okay - also I should have used smoke, but being still a noob, I forgot). Anyway, Deep Strike or Not? If so, should I put them as close as possible to the enemy armour or further away?

My Daemon Prince has Wings. Naturally I used his Deep Strike ability (as I write this I realize I cheated with his DS - I forgot Icons don't affect him; oops ) but having no shooting attacks, I put him a little ways back. Should I have put him in the front? Should I DS with him at all? Should I let him take a round of shooting in exchange for being able to assault?

Lastly, if my Rhinos get destroyed, what's a good way to close with an enemy position and/or pursue an agile force such as Eldar (they give me the most trouble, so this is really specific to them)?

I know most of these questions are situational, and part of my problem is I'm not that experienced (read: good) and my opponent outplayed me, but any general answers to these would be really helpful for me getting to know how to make my force cohesive instead of just a bunch of isolated squads. (I also rolled poorly, but that happens)

Thanks for the help so far!

It is hard for you to be the aggressor when playing Eldar. Like i said though give them something harder to destroy like Vindicators or as others have said Preds. both offer an AV13 that is harder to bring down for a fast moving eldar army. No DSing because you dont know what turn they will pop on the table. Termicides are the exception to the no DSing. I would say Preds. would suit better against Eldar since that seems to be your biggest worry. AC/Las preds. would help alot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also there is not many good ways to run down Eldar transports you have to shoot them out of it or wait until they are on top of an objective. Key is to get them out of the transport. Even stunning it helps because that gives you a free shot next turn without them moving.

You're playing at too small a level to risk Deepstriking anything. Put everything on the board and you'll do better, because you'll have more to work with.

And no, you didn't cheat. The Icons work with anyone's Deepstriking be it Obliterator, Daemon Prince or Raptor, etc. The only restriction is for Lesser Daemons, who must be Deepstriked on an Icon.

G'day - I play CSM vs Eldar all the time. Im getting better, but I think we struggle a little. Ive gotten my best success with CSM havocs x 4 missile launchers (not Oblits). These guys are great at taking down the fast skimmers. AutoCannons are another option.

Also, at 1000 points, I consider cult troops too expensive. I would take vanilla (no marks or icons) or icon'd troops (Nurgle is solid, as is Undivided) and use the spare points on another troops choice (for taking objectives).

Thanks for the DS tips guys. I guess I've only got one question left, being should I walk my Oblits along with my Rhinos/PM's? Or just keep them back and popping stuff with lascannons?

Also, I did indeed cheat with the DP DS. Chaos Dex p81: "Note that Icons only work for models in Terminator Armour, Obliterators, and Lesser Daemons, not for units entering play using jump packs or other means of transport."
As the DP deep strikes using his Wings, he should not benefit from the Personal Icon.

Had to go check that one though

Xca|iber wrote:Thanks for the DS tips guys. I guess I've only got one question left, being should I walk my Oblits along with my Rhinos/PM's? Or just keep them back and popping stuff with lascannons?

It depends on what your opponent has in his army. If they have lots of high strength, low AP weapons you'll want to keep your oblits in cover somewhere if you can. If they dont then by all means walk them up where their mid/short ranged weaponry can be used.

That's what I get for opening my big mouth without the codex infront of me. Yes, you're right. Mostly irrelevant though, since the winged/jetpack units are better off moving normally. Just keep them back and in cover against Eldar. The closer ranged weapons won't help you too much against them specifically.

I think you'll find that deepstriking a flying CC unit is almost always a bad idea, as in the best scenario you're already delaying close combat until turn 3.

If you're facing such overwhelming firepower that he must start off the table, I'd just put him in regular reserves, as this still gives him a chance to assault the turn he arrives from reserves.

The best thing to do, however, is start him on the board, and if he dies just say "oh well, those were shots that weren't blowing up my other things."

Thanks again for the replies.

Here's an almost unrelated question for the wise forum gurus: Should I ever use "go to ground" with my CSM? I mean if I were being shot by a tank or whatever and wouldn't get armor saves. Basically, is it worth it to lose a turn with them and have them survive?

I've considered it before, but with so few units at 1k points it really would cut down my damage output, and the tank might just shoot me again, effectively locking down the squad (if I continue going to ground).

That's entirely relative, but outside of cover? Generally the loses are worth it if you can make it to cover in the next turn. In cover? If you're hunkering down on an objective, sure.

Cool, thanks

Remember that if you're in cover (difficult terrain) and you go to ground, then a unit that tries to assault you across said difficult ground won't need grenades to hit you at their regular initiative.

Ah yes, something to be very careful of against the new Tyranids. However, any other army will either have grenades or not assault at a high enough initiative anyway.

Best advice I can give you, since I run a similar list, is as follows.

Get your DP into their face as quickly as possible. With wings he can fly 12", and Lash another 12", effectively giving you a 24" threat range. The roll is 2d6, so averages say you will get a 6" gain, allowing you to assault the last 6 inches. Once you're in close combat, this guy is a can opener. Base 4 attacks, ignores armor saves due to being a monstrous creature, and with a 7 WS he's going to be very hard to hit by MEQs (the Max 5s needed to hit in most cases). If he's in Close Combat he can't be fired upon by outside units, so is technically immune to fire from sources outside that CC. If you can find a way to finish CC, Lash, and assault into a new combat, you could keep him immune to outside fire for a long time.

Plague Marines are awesome at holding an objective. Drive them right on top of it in the Rhino, and sit in that tin can until it gets blowed up.

If you have two squads of Oblits, perch one Squad up on the highest building in your deployment area with a clear line of sight for 48" lascannon shots at armor and monstrous creatures. Keep the 2nd Oblit Squad in reserve.

There's Terminators with Power Weapons, all Terminators with Lightening Claws, Possessed, Lesser Daemons, Ork Nobs, some Daemons, Walkers, and so on.

Mizzri wrote:with a 7 WS he's going to be very hard to hit by MEQs (6s needed to hit in most cases).

No, you have that horribly incorrect. You never require more than a 5+ to hit in close combat. Only WS3 models or worse will need 5's to hit against a WS7, if you look at your rulebook.

Mizzri wrote:If you have two squads of Oblits, perch one Squad up on the highest building in your deployment area with a clear line of sight for 72" lascannon shots at armor and monstrous creatures. Keep the 2nd Oblit Squad in reserve.

No, Lascannons do not have a 72" range, and starting the second squad in reserve provides no benefit.

EDIT:

Nurglitch wrote:There's Terminators with Power Weapons, all Terminators with Lightening Claws, Possessed, Lesser Daemons, Ork Nobs, some Daemons, Walkers, and so on.

Terminators with Power Weapons/Lightning Claws will generally kill you anyway; Possessed will generally kill you anyway; Lesser Daemons will generally not kill you anyway; Ork Nobs will generally kill you anyway; Walkers won't matter because the only thing that can damage it is the Powerfist who is swinging at I1 anyway. So I should have added on a "or not matter" disclaimer.

Yep, Darkhound is right on both counts.

Lascannon is 48", not 72".
As far as never needing more than 5's to hit in close combat, that's a rule I missed. Thanks for clearing that up

Xca|iber wrote:Alright, so given the responses so far, I'll keep going with my first list, which leads me to a few more questions:

Oblits are good, but most of mine got obliterated off the table by my opponent's heavy weapons (in this case, Eldar FP's). Naturally I put them in cover, but they still basically got shot up without doing too much damage. Should I not deep strike them (this left my Rhinos the only targets on Turn 1, so they both got destroyed, though the PM's were okay - also I should have used smoke, but being still a noob, I forgot). Anyway, Deep Strike or Not? If so, should I put them as close as possible to the enemy armour or further away?

My Daemon Prince has Wings. Naturally I used his Deep Strike ability (as I write this I realize I cheated with his DS - I forgot Icons don't affect him; oops ) but having no shooting attacks, I put him a little ways back. Should I have put him in the front? Should I DS with him at all? Should I let him take a round of shooting in exchange for being able to assault?

Lastly, if my Rhinos get destroyed, what's a good way to close with an enemy position and/or pursue an agile force such as Eldar (they give me the most trouble, so this is really specific to them)?

I know most of these questions are situational, and part of my problem is I'm not that experienced (read: good) and my opponent outplayed me, but any general answers to these would be really helpful for me getting to know how to make my force cohesive instead of just a bunch of isolated squads. (I also rolled poorly, but that happens)

Thanks for the help so far!

Ok looking at the list you gave.

Daemon Prince: [Wings, MoN, Warptime] - 175
7x Plague Marines: [Champion with fist, 2x Melta, Rhino, Icon] - 261
7x Plague Marines: [Champion with fist, 2x Melta, Rhino, Icon] - 261
2x Obliterators: [No extra gear] - 150
2x Obliterators: [No extra gear] - 150
Total: 997



Don't deep strike the Deamon Prince. Keep him behind cover, jump 12" and run him every shooting phase. A Rhino could be used to give him a cover save from a specific static unit like Dark Reapers. He should be in assault range of something on turn 2.

If you enjoy pulling a Monstrous Creature out of reserve buy a great unclean one. A greater daemon can assult in the turn it comes in, and works great when combined with Rhinos. If you dump the icons (That do nothing) 1 Obliterater and go with a single squad of 3 You'll only be 15 pionts shy of having the points to field a Greater Deamon at 1000 points.

As cool as it would be to take a GD, I don't think its worth it for me at this points value. After all the advice though, I've changed to this list, with the following basic strategy tenets:

Daemon Prince: [Wings, MoN, Warptime] - 175
7x Plague Marines: [Champion with fist, 2x Melta, Rhino] - 256
7x Plague Marines: [Champion with fist and Combi-Melta, 2x Melta, Rhino] - 266
2x Obliterators: [No extra gear] - 150
2x Obliterators: [No extra gear] - 150
Total: 997

Notes (collated from advice in the thread):
Deep Strike leaves too much off the field in a 1k game, save it for higher points games.
Keep the DP mostly out of sight or in cover until he can get close to dish out the pain. (Personal note - I shouldn't forget to use Warptime )
Consider going to ground if attempting to hold an objective.
Keep Oblits in cover until high S low AP weapons are dealt with, then move forward at discretion.
Consider replacing the Oblits with Predators if Obliterators aren't working well.
Play agressively. Papa Nurgle loves you! LOVE HIM BACK!

Yup, remember to use Warptime every player turn, not just every game turn! You should consider Nurgle's Rot as an alternative (of course, a Sorcerer could take both, but it doesn't fit your strategy).

Actually, be wary of low strength but high volume weapons attacking your Obliterators too. Cover will be meaningless against those, and every sixth wound will get through your armour. In these cases use Slow and Purposeful to get away, rather than to hang out in cover.

Your first list is fine. Just play more to gain more experience and improve at the game.

I would take 2 oblits and a defiler with 2 xtra close combat weapons

I'd think about swapping out some melta guns for plasma guns.

If eldar are dancing away from you, the 24" range will help you more than the melta rules. Likewise, if they're avoiding your units then the penalties for firing a rapid fire weapon won't bother you much because you won't be assaulting anyway.

At short range, you'll get increased shots out of your transport's single fire point.


If you wanted to use a greater daemon. Look for points by dumping your powerfists. You'll be wasting at least one of them when he possesses the champion.

Rhino move(s) + Greater Daemon Disembark (in a subsequent turn) + Assault move will create a more credible assault threat than trying to get close, unload the champ, wait a turn, and then charge.

Plus it leaves your other 6 plague marines safely tucked away inside their rhino.