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Earlier today, I looked at my chaos collection and realized that I have quite a few vanilla marines.. I was wondering what Icon would be the most effective in them..

I'm open to any suggestions anyone may have

Well honestly for the points you cant beat IoCG. Cheap and reroll morale checks is more useful than what you would think. Nurgle extra toughness would be second but it is expensive and is fake toughness. Close third is khorne cheap plus extra attack. The reason i said third for it cause you are still at WS4 and no FC. For the last two both are kinda weak IMO but are only good on certain models. Both are good for termies. Slaanesh termies with dual LCs wreck face. While Tzeentch termies are walking cover saves.

I myself have a habit of having a 10-man squad back with a heavy bolter and plasma gun armed with Icon of Tzeentch while an 8-man Khorne Berserker and another 10-man with Icon of Khorne assault up the middle.

I should probably add that these vanilla marines would be in rhinos, to fit with a mech army, and they will probably end up disembarking+double-tapping, and then weathering an assault and/or charging the survivors..

Well in that case if you are using them as a rhino rush IoK would work well for you especially if you get the charge. The problem is though no other mark gives you a second chance like IoCG and they are not fearless. It all depends on what role you need them to fill. Rhino rush IoK. Sit and hold IoN. All around though IoCG still out does them all IMO.

If i got out of my transport and double-tapped, wouldn't it be good to have a higher toughness to survive what comes back at me?

ghastli wrote:Earlier today, I looked at my chaos collection and realized that I have quite a few vanilla marines.. I was wondering what Icon would be the most effective in them..

I'm open to any suggestions anyone may have

IMNSHO, none of them. just use the cult troops.

Sorry read over that yeah it probably would be better to have better toughness rather than +1attack in that case.

IoN, go with Plague marines, seriously.
IoS, economical CSM if you don't want sonic weapons.
IoK, flexible unit with them specials.
IoT, cover not enough?
IoCG: default icon if you don't take the others or have no real preference.

These are IMO of course.
IoCG will always win for me because it's the cheapest and helps with the non-fearless nature of the CSM. In general they are good enough without needing the 'lesser' bonuses of the other icons.

Unless we are talking about 'friendly' gaming environments, in which case take whatever you want.

Sanctjud wrote:IoN, go with Plague marines, seriously.

Well I think I'd rather keep my 4 initiative and lower points cost over full out plague marines... Although I am not trying to say that chaos marine squads with IoN are tougher, since plague marines have FNP, vanilla marines are just cheaper. For the price of a plague marines squad, I could get a marine squad with IoN and a rhino.

Icon of Chaos Glory definitely.


Nurgle icons cost too much when you can get plagues with FNP for a little more.

If you're going for cheap and jump-n-doubletap why not Slaanesh? Jump out, DT, get charged, hit them first!

Nurgleboy77 wrote:If you're going for cheap and jump-n-doubletap why not Slaanesh? Jump out, DT, get charged, hit them first!

That's true... if you are definitely going to get assaulted. What happens if you get shot up? I'm thinking that IoCG or IoN will be the best icon for a mechanized squad of vanilla marines. IoCG so you pass your morale check or IoN so you won't need to take a morale check..

Sanctjud wrote:
IoCG will always win for me because it's the cheapest and helps with the non-fearless nature of the CSM. In general they are good enough without needing the 'lesser' bonuses of the other icons..

+1. IoCG + LD10 is damn near the same as Fearless without the ability to take extra wounds if you lose combat.

I have to agree with my esteemed colleagues: IoCG is the way to go with vanilla marines.

IoN, you might as well buy Plague Marines
IoT is best served on Termies to give them +2/+4
IoK, you might as well buy Berserkers
IoS, only good in close combat. Against other chaos or Nids, maybe.

DO NOT PAY FOR ICON OF NURGLE! DON'T DO IT!

CSM need to be taken in 10s to maximize the effectiveness, so Icon of Nurgle costs 5 points a model. FnP and Fearless are worth far more than remaining 3 points a model, plus you don't have to take a max squad which means you undercut the cost of the CSM. CSM are to be taken as cheaply as possible, relying on their natural prowess to win the day. If you want to invest in something, go Cult. Otherwise, take IoCG.

Forgive my noobishness, but what does double-tap mean/refer to?

Rapid firing.

Yea...

10 CSM w/ IoN = 200.
8 Plague Marines ~ 184. (9 PMs would be 207)

Do you really want that extra bolter or two?
Over FNP, Blight Grenades, 2 special weapons under 10 models, fearless?
I3 only comes into play against I4 opponents in combat...the balancer to striking later is that you've removed 1 attack from each person charging already...on top of it, they will have to deal with T5 and FNP. Sure the fist goes right through, but it's reduced by 33% charge effectiveness already (assuming 2 A base).

The icon system is weak, period.

What about a unit of Havoks with 4 flamers, icon of Khorne in a landraider? I was thinking of this as a possible assault unit instead of the overpriced Chosen. Granted, my Imperial thought process was "Dominions with 4 flamers in a rhino are fun, but would be cooler if they could rip it up in assault after they burn something to death." I am thinking Havoks with icon of Khorne have 3 attacks, 4 attacks on the charge, can get a PF on the Vet, and can rock 4 flame templates. Seems that would rip up a lot, and wouldn't be too expensive (by chaos standards). The landraider is just to get them the charge, but depending on your enemy a rhino might do just as well?

Personally I like the IoK on marines because it significantly increases their CC ability in both offensive and defensive capacities. IoN is too costly and really only functions in a defensive manner. IoCG is solid, but really it's there to help you with morale checks from shooting attacks, which aren't going to be a big deal for you with Ld 10. The MoK helps you with and morale checks you may have to make due to combat by helping you win the combat or lose by less rather than trying to roll under a lower number with reroll.

If you ever have the chance to either kill more enemies to not lose combat or to deal with the consequences of not killing as many, the choice becomes clear: killing more enemies is better.

So yeah, Khorne all the way, enjoy your cheap berzerkers with the ability to shoot that aren't as good on the charge or fearless.

Culler wrote:Personally I like the IoK on marines because it significantly increases their CC ability in both offensive and defensive capacities. IoN is too costly and really only functions in a defensive manner. IoCG is solid, but really it's there to help you with morale checks from shooting attacks, which aren't going to be a big deal for you with Ld 10.

Not really. They kill about 1 more marine on average, and Im sure 2-3 more guardsmen, but I would argue that Chaos already beats these units without the extra attack.

However, the moment you start running into Terminators, Scorpians, etc. or walkers, where the odds are a little more even, those extra few attacks are pretty much useless, and the battle is going to depend on the dice. Losing an entire squad of CSM because you lost by 1 to I5 enemies is not a good thing.

Also, IoCG is there to protect you when you lose in close combat.

IoK will give you a delicious extra attack with the power fist champion. The squad can also lug plasma guns in case they run into terminators. Probably kill the same number without being hit back. If you want to assault they have loads of attacks. If you want to shoot them them are covered in ablative wounds.

Night Lords wrote:

Culler wrote:Personally I like the IoK on marines because it significantly increases their CC ability in both offensive and defensive capacities. IoN is too costly and really only functions in a defensive manner. IoCG is solid, but really it's there to help you with morale checks from shooting attacks, which aren't going to be a big deal for you with Ld 10.

Not really. They kill about 1 more marine on average, and Im sure 2-3 more guardsmen, but I would argue that Chaos already beats these units without the extra attack.

However, the moment you start running into Terminators, Scorpians, etc. or walkers, where the odds are a little more even, those extra few attacks are pretty much useless, and the battle is going to depend on the dice. Losing an entire squad of CSM because you lost by 1 to I5 enemies is not a good thing.

Getting an extra powerfist attack from MoK is really nice and helps with both terminators or walkers. Honestly, if you're getting charged by something that you're losing combat by 5 or more by, IoCG isn't going to save you from breaking.

Also, 10 more attacks against Orks is huge. You kill an extra 2-3 which prevents you from taking up to 8-12 attacks which in turn saves another one of your marines from dying, and this works out to a difference of 3-4 more points in your favor for the combat. You have a much better chance of making morale on Ld 9 than 5 with reroll, and 3-4 can easily be the difference between winning and losing combat.

@Culler:

Honestly, if you're getting charged by something that you're losing combat by 5 or more by, WHATEVER ICON isn't going to save you from breaking.

Fixed that for you.
IoCG is still better than the others with respect to combat result passing

Well I'm definitely gonna say that IoCG seems the most cost effective.. All of the others just seem like a few too many points to be investing in your expendable vanilla marines, and they dont seem to do as much as IoCG. It's more versatile than IoK or IoS, which only help in assaults, and cheaper than IoN or IoT, which are too expensive to contemplate on simple vanilla marines.
Thanks for the insight guys